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Thonnas

Warlord
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
264
I dont have as much time as Id like to post all my bugs and thoughts in all the appropriate threads, so I thought Id just provide a sort of knowledge dump and you may do with it what you wish.

First of all, I am very excited to see how this all comes together. The first version was very interesting, but the lack of flavor and uniqueness among the civilizations caused it to become, at least for me, kind of boring in a short time. The beta of the second version has, thus far, provided some excelent changes in those areas and then some more to boot. It should be/is a great mod. Thank you for your efforts.

Now my thoughts/suggestions/comments/bugs:
* a single list of known, unfixed bugs would be very useful, especially for more casual visitors/fans. If some one is experiencing what may seem an obvious bug to them, but has to practically do research to find out if it has been reported, reconized or addressed, they may be reluctant to speak up.
* a few bugs that I have experienced and am unsure of include:
- no random map generation. none of the map generation scripts I have produce anything besides a flat grassland map.
- watch towers do nothing.
- none of my mana sources have ever provided free promotions to my adepts.
- my adepts/mages/etc do not loose the "casted" promotion.
- adpets dont gain experience automatically unless upgraded to a new unit.
- heroes sometimes stop gaining, or do not gain xp at all. I can say if its certain ones in particular as Ive been trying to play all aspects when I have the time.
- dwarven units dont seem to get the extra hill movement unless they have gurilla II.
* tech tree: On one hand its kind of nice that the tree is so broad and open, but on the other it feels like it needs more cross/co-dependancies. Some of the techs are a little weak and a few are basically useless besides providing a link to the techs beyond them. If there is stuff to be added to these weak techs Im sure it will be fine, otherwise Id consider just removing them and increasing cost those that follow. Also, the costs of techs should be varried more so that they are more reflective of the additions they provide, rather than just their place in the tree. Again I want to point out that it feals like more dependancies are needed. I hope you can find a nice balance between the openess you have and the multi-dependentcy of the default tree.
* the good/bad/neutral modifiers seem to have a prety severe effect on relations. perhaps only good and bad should have modifiers against eachother.
* similarly (this is an issue Ive had with the original religion system) every religion is very intolerant of any other religion. I dont know if it can be done, but each religion should have a certain amount of tollerance, or lack of, twards the other religions. One wouldnt expect civilizations with the fellowship of leaves and the order of kilmorph to be at odds with each other simpley because of their religions. And one might expect that the order and ashen vail be opposed no matter what their past relations.

I have more thoughts, but not time. I hope this is useful/insightful. Thank you for the mod.
 
Thonnas said:
I dont have as much time as Id like to post all my bugs and thoughts in all the appropriate threads, so I thought Id just provide a sort of knowledge dump and you may do with it what you wish.

First of all, I am very excited to see how this all comes together. The first version was very interesting, but the lack of flavor and uniqueness among the civilizations caused it to become, at least for me, kind of boring in a short time. The beta of the second version has, thus far, provided some excelent changes in those areas and then some more to boot. It should be/is a great mod. Thank you for your efforts.

Now my thoughts/suggestions/comments/bugs:
* a single list of known, unfixed bugs would be very useful, especially for more casual visitors/fans. If some one is experiencing what may seem an obvious bug to them, but has to practically do research to find out if it has been reported, reconized or addressed, they may be reluctant to speak up.

Those should be recorded in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171497


* a few bugs that I have experienced and am unsure of include:
- no random map generation. none of the map generation scripts I have produce anything besides a flat grassland map.
- watch towers do nothing.
- none of my mana sources have ever provided free promotions to my adepts.
- my adepts/mages/etc do not loose the "casted" promotion.
- adpets dont gain experience automatically unless upgraded to a new unit.

I have never experienced any of these issues, or had them reported by anyone. I suspect that your ffh cveventmanager isnt running (usually because you have another one in your customassets folder).

- heroes sometimes stop gaining, or do not gain xp at all. I can say if its certain ones in particular as Ive been trying to play all aspects when I have the time.

Heroes should stop gaining xp at 100. But this is another cveventmanager function so if you have a conflicting one it would make sense that this wouldn't work.

- dwarven units dont seem to get the extra hill movement unless they have gurilla II.

That is correct, only guerilla 2 grants hills double move. Thats the way its configured to work.

* tech tree: On one hand its kind of nice that the tree is so broad and open, but on the other it feels like it needs more cross/co-dependancies. Some of the techs are a little weak and a few are basically useless besides providing a link to the techs beyond them. If there is stuff to be added to these weak techs Im sure it will be fine, otherwise Id consider just removing them and increasing cost those that follow. Also, the costs of techs should be varried more so that they are more reflective of the additions they provide, rather than just their place in the tree. Again I want to point out that it feals like more dependancies are needed. I hope you can find a nice balance between the openess you have and the multi-dependentcy of the default tree.

Yeah I agree with you. 0.13 was the first version for the new tech tree, 0.14 should clean it up quite a bit (and exactly as you mentioned we cut some techs).

* the good/bad/neutral modifiers seem to have a prety severe effect on relations. perhaps only good and bad should have modifiers against eachother.

Thats intended, forces players into factions and makes friends better friends and enemies worse enemies.

* similarly (this is an issue Ive had with the original religion system) every religion is very intolerant of any other religion. I dont know if it can be done, but each religion should have a certain amount of tollerance, or lack of, twards the other religions. One wouldnt expect civilizations with the fellowship of leaves and the order of kilmorph to be at odds with each other simpley because of their religions. And one might expect that the order and ashen vail be opposed no matter what their past relations.

Yeah, I agree with this too. I dont remember if this is in right now or not. Chalid do you remember if this got added yet?
 
I agree with Kael there (re: bugs and stuff). I think certain religions should hate eachother more than others. I do like the negative modifiers etc - I find that there isn't enough war (except barbs) in FFH2 unlike vanilla civ though so more negative modifiers may be even better!
 
I agree with the lack of war in FFh. This is one reason I enjoy the challenge of playing with raging barbs.

It seems to me in the later game stages especially the game drags as almost all of the AI civs have defensive pacts and you dare not attack anyone. Likewise, it seems the AI is reluctant to declare war because of all the pacts.

I know this is true of vanilla CIV too, but I wish there was something that could revoke all defensive pacts for a period of time to make the game more lively later on.

Otherwise, you are looking at a time victory and, in the case of Marathon setting, this can take forever.
 
Maybe the ai could form offensive pacts - it might work along the lines of one or more civs contacting others and agreeing to declare war on someone all at the same time (rather than one civ declaring war first then having to convince others to join them).
 
Yeah, I agree with this too. I dont remember if this is in right now or not. Chalid do you remember if this got added yet?

Nope at the moments the religions hate each otehr equally. But the Alignment adds to this so im not sure if we have to add another factor based on religion. But if it is the general impression than i'll code it.



Sarisin said:
I agree with the lack of war in FFh. This is one reason I enjoy the challenge of playing with raging barbs.

It seems to me in the later game stages especially the game drags as almost all of the AI civs have defensive pacts and you dare not attack anyone. Likewise, it seems the AI is reluctant to declare war because of all the pacts.

I know this is true of vanilla CIV too, but I wish there was something that could revoke all defensive pacts for a period of time to make the game more lively later on.

Otherwise, you are looking at a time victory and, in the case of Marathon setting, this can take forever.

I hav thaought about this myself and i would like something like: good guys like to make defensive pacts, bad guys like to make war. The problem is to mak this working the bad guys need to be powered up a bit. (As they do not ally and are weaker than the teamed up good guys that way)
Generally that would mean:
World full of good guys: builder world, not much war
World full of bad guys: warmonger world, not much peace.
 
A fun setup I've tried for more war is to set up a good/neutral team with yourself in it and a separate evil team then check "All civs at war with human player" and you get a good time.

Only problem is I can't get some civs in on it because Infernal for example can't be chosen (they look so menacing too so its a shame). It never felt quite right having Infernal or the Clan or the Vampires being nice to me.. it was always too easy to be at peace with anyone even with Aggressive AI's on, a nice even match makes it interesting (I think the AI's on your own team might get handicapped because everytime I meet the enemy they are like 1000+ points ahead of each of my allies scores).

This type of game would be so much better if there was a way to pick a random good, a random neutral and a random evil from the menu, and if Infernal and some others were choosable. Or maybe if the option "permanent war or peace" was decided by alignments at the beginning.
 
new game option
-good vs evil
good civs are always at war with evil?
 
Err... that sure sounds correct roleplay-wise, but those poor Grigori guys are already weak enough in all my games. In fact, if they didn't tend to be rather friendly with everyone thanks to the lack of religious penalty, I bet they would be wiped out of every game very early. On the average, they usually end up being last in score when I play against them. I've not tried playing them yet, though, so it may be pure lack of AI effectiveness.
 
Thonnas said:
* a few bugs that I have experienced and am unsure of include:
- no random map generation. none of the map generation scripts I have produce anything besides a flat grassland map.
- watch towers do nothing.
- none of my mana sources have ever provided free promotions to my adepts.
- my adepts/mages/etc do not loose the "casted" promotion.
- adpets dont gain experience automatically unless upgraded to a new unit.
- heroes sometimes stop gaining, or do not gain xp at all. I can say if its certain ones in particular as Ive been trying to play all aspects when I have the time.
- dwarven units dont seem to get the extra hill movement unless they have gurilla II.

I figured out what was causing my problems.
The map generation problem was caused by a mapscript "Random.py" in my public maps folder. I dont know how or why, but I narrowed it down to that and removing it allowed maps to generate.

The other problems seem to be caused by missing DesertWar python files in the FFH folder. I dont know if they are just not included in the FFH instal package or if they are supposed to be accessed from the DesertWar mod folder, but there were errors in the logs calling on misssing CvDesertWar.py and CvDesertWarEventManager.py (or whatever it is). I copied the ones from the DesertWar folder but although they enable everything else to work properly they also triger the desert war events.

If there are custom .py files that are missing from the instal pack that may have been in earlier releases I would be very grateful if someone could post them for me. If there arent files that should be there then someone may want to test out a clean instal of civ and ffh to see if they can see what is missing.

Unrelated, are units that are only available to certain civs (but not necesarilly UUs) going to get that fact noted in the civilopedia?

And regarding the grigori, a better term may be antitheistic, rather than agnostic. And maybe they should get some kind of fervor or self-rightiousnes for their crusade against the gods, or however the story goes.
 
Thonnas said:
I figured out what was causing my problems.
The map generation problem was caused by a mapscript "Random.py" in my public maps folder. I dont know how or why, but I narrowed it down to that and removing it allowed maps to generate.

The other problems seem to be caused by missing DesertWar python files in the FFH folder. I dont know if they are just not included in the FFH instal package or if they are supposed to be accessed from the DesertWar mod folder, but there were errors in the logs calling on misssing CvDesertWar.py and CvDesertWarEventManager.py (or whatever it is). I copied the ones from the DesertWar folder but although they enable everything else to work properly they also triger the desert war events.

As I mentioned before I suspect there are some conflicting files in your customassets directory. I would strongly recommend you rename it. There is no relationship between desertwar and fall from heaven and those files would not be referenced in a correct install.

After you rename your customassets you will probably want to reinstall fall from heaven.

If there are custom .py files that are missing from the instal pack that may have been in earlier releases I would be very grateful if someone could post them for me. If there arent files that should be there then someone may want to test out a clean instal of civ and ffh to see if they can see what is missing.

I clean install works fine, i just reinstalled a few days ago to participate in a 0.13 SG (I only had 0.14 on my computer at the time).

Unrelated, are units that are only available to certain civs (but not necesarilly UUs) going to get that fact noted in the civilopedia?

Yeah, Chalid made a really cool change so that is more apparent in the pedia now.

And regarding the grigori, a better term may be antitheistic, rather than agnostic. And maybe they should get some kind of fervor or self-rightiousnes for their crusade against the gods, or however the story goes.

Agnostic (even if you believe in gods disregarding any need to worship them) is fitting enough, a lot of people use it in place of athestic (disbelief in gods) which definitly doesn't match. Antitheistic is a pretty good description too.
 
Kael said:
As I mentioned before I suspect there are some conflicting files in your customassets directory. I would strongly recommend you rename it. There is no relationship between desertwar and fall from heaven and those files would not be referenced in a correct install.

After you rename your customassets you will probably want to reinstall fall from heaven.

I should have pointed out that I have no custom assets. I even went and deleted the folder and reinstalled FFH to be sure before I started poking around and found a reference to desertwar in the pythonerr file. Like I said, with the desert war files the system works, but it doesnt without them. I'll try a completely clean partion and new user installation and see what comes up.
 
Thonnas said:
I should have pointed out that I have no custom assets. I even went and deleted the folder and reinstalled FFH to be sure before I started poking around and found a reference to desertwar in the pythonerr file. Like I said, with the desert war files the system works, but it doesnt without them. I'll try a completely clean partion and new user installation and see what comes up.

Ahh, very weird. Almost sounds like your civ4 install may be messed up. You shouldnt need any desertwar files for FfH.
 
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