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General Immortal/Diety Build Order Request

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by XVBLACKFLAGVX, Oct 28, 2019.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Much appreciated, will check in 2-3 hours when I can.
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  3. Bangau

    Bangau Warlord Supporter

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    Can confirm (by playing one game on online speed) that it doesn't work on online speed. It does work all the time on standard speed though. Wonder why.
     
  4. Builderphile

    Builderphile Chieftain

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    That explains it. I play online speed almost exclusively. Thanks.
     
  5. sugerdady87

    sugerdady87 Warlord

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    90% deity, 10% immortal (testing out something new).

    1st city: warrior --> settler --> warrior/slinger --> settler
    2nd city: warrior/slinger (archer) --> settler

    Scout initially with warriors but don't fog bust. Use them to kill camps for gold and next age points, or whatever that crap is called.

    Restarting because you're getting destroyed for not getting units simply means the opening is a weak one, imo. After the last patch, the barbs are just too insane.

    I play on normal speed and the AI never accepts a delegate on the initial few turns.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2019
  6. Bangau

    Bangau Warlord Supporter

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    Really? That is super weird. I play on deity 95% of the time and almost always on standard speed and they always (yes ALWAYS) accept my delegate on the turn I meet them. I only use UI mods, none that alter AI behavior. Do you have any mods that could effect this?
     
  7. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I have had some mass invasions but for the most part nothing too crazy.
    I find that I am in a race with the City States many times to get the camp.
    That is if the AI doesn't get them as well.
    I agree though that a military is a priority.
    I have to admit that I have been trying to go builder/settler first more on Deity Pangaea Maps.
    It seems that a Build Order really is situational.
    The difficulty for me is being able to read the situation or map correctly.
    I am starting to realize key tiles are important as well like 3F2P.
    I used to think and read that production was the most important thing early on.
    However, it seems Growth or a Combination is more so important.
     
  8. XVBLACKFLAGVX

    XVBLACKFLAGVX Chieftain

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    Thanks for the response! What do you mean by don't fog bust?
     
  9. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    If i may answer for him: Fog busting is camping a unit to keep clear of fog an area to prevent barbs from spawning there.
    If you don't do it, you get new camps to kill for era score. Also, you will know where they will spawn because they will respawn in the same location. (if you fog bust that location, but not all the surroundings, they will appear elsewhere, so fog-busting is only useful if you keep all your surroundings clear rather than just the known camp location anyways)
     
  10. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Slinger first. Unless your land sucks. Then builder first. Unless it's a bigger than standard landmass map. Then scout first. Unless someone spawns right next to you. Then warrior first.
     
  11. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    The last two games I played had some serious Barb Issues.
    Turns out if you don't take care of them early on they can become a nightmare.
    Both times I had two Camps in the South just spawning Xbows, Horses and Swords constantly.
    So that kinda changes the Build Order and at the least, sets me many turns back.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It must be the first turn you meet them and they say yes every time for me and pretty much always say no on the second and subsequent.

    I find using a combo of scout and warrior stop most barb scouts as long as you use the scout in that job, it’s ZOC and ability to be there 1 turn earlier than a sling are significant. Then builder for agoge and settler while getting to agoge then build the army cheaper to just clean everything up. If the enemy starts coming toward you a scout and warrior can slow them down a lot used right and they will typically not declare until in your territory.
    I have found starting on a hill to be a serious barb issue because of the way LOS works in this game. I will certainly come off a grassland hill and sometimes off a plains hill.

    A start to avoid. Note 2 of the scouts are sieging me even though they have not seen me... that’s the trick of not being on a hill.
    upload_2019-11-9_15-36-41.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    acluewithout and Fluphen Azine like this.
  13. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    So I was just talking about this in another thread.
    I recently came back to the game and was having some troubles.
    Turns out I was building greedy for the first 25 turns or so.
    My usual Map is Deity and Pangaea with Standard Settings, Low Sea and Natural Disaster 2.
    I focus on Military First now once again.
    I try to get out 4 to 6 units and sneak in a Builder, Settler or Monument along the way depending on the situation.
    However, the main focus is getting an Army out and getting a Larger Army out from turn 40 to 100.
    Try to steal a Settler from the AI or a Builder but the Builder isn't nearly as worth it for me.
    An Early Army just makes everything go smoother and safer for me.
    It might not be the fastest or most optimal but it seems to be the safest approach.
    Others have stated this and I agree.
    Total Peace can work but I find it situational where I can run into serious problems.
    Going Army First with the intentions of using/building a Larger Army seems to work every time no matter the situation.
    Once Again, it may not be the fastest approach for win time but I find it makes life much easier.
     
  14. tiamats4esgares

    tiamats4esgares Chieftain

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    Hey there! I'm by no means an expert. I, until recently, played mostly Civ V because I didn't like Civ VI a lot but then I got to watching a YouTuber I like play a lot of Civ VI and it made me want to play so now I'm playing it. On V, I play exclusively on Immortal and Deity and can win Immortal almost every time with a variety of civs and strategies. Diety I do OK on. But I'm playing my first Deity game of VI right now, but I'm projected to win, it's just a matter of time. More about that in a second.

    I've watched a lot of videos of FilthyRobot and PotatoMcWhiskey, both tip videos and just watching them and how they go about and think about the early game (both against AI and pvp) so, while again I'm no expert, I think I have a good grasp on things.

    First of all, it depends a LOT on what civ you're playing, what victory you want to go for, and your map type. I personally have devised a strategy playing as China which requires me to found a religion. To make that easier, I play on Archipelago and I had to reset a few times until I was on an island by myself because other civs are aggressive if they are on my island. If you're on an island by yourself, other civs are MUCH LESS AGGRESSIVE! Keep this in mind!

    So the game I'm doing now -- and what I think is best -- I started with a Slinger. I know a lot of people will say to start with a Scout, but I feel as though Slingers are much better because of how super aggressive barbs can be and you need to make sure you can kill them (if they kill your Explorer, that's production/gold lost to get a new one). Furthermore, you boost Archery by killing a barbarian so it saves you tech in the early game (something else is boosted by having 3 Archers, but I can't remember what, so this also helps to start with a Slinger if you want to go that route). I never start with a Builder because you almost never start in a position where you can reliable work 2 tiles, let alone 3. Sometimes not even 1. Just feels like a waste. It also dictates early tech ideas too much. I usually buy a Builder as soon as I can afford it with gold, but sometimes instead I buy a Slinger or Archer as that will be more important at that time.

    Even if I wasn't starting on Archipelago, I will ALWAYS go with a Slinger start no matter what. Even if I have 3 tiles I can improve with a Builder nearby. Just no matter what: Slinger.

    The goal is to reach population size 2 by the time you are finished with the Slinger. This is so I can make a Settler. If, for some reason, I don't have population 2 by then I will start on a Builder which will one day be finished. xD

    As mentioned above, you should generally speaking keep making Settlers in your capital one after the other for a while. I generally stop around the time I have 8 cities. My goal is to have 8-12 cities, but I don't necessarily get the last few right away if I feel the capital needs to focus on something else. If there's another civ that I'm afraid will take an area if I don't, I will probably have another high production city start making settlers instead of the Capital to get the last few out. If I don't feel like they'll take my area, I'll just wait. But I always make sure I generally have 8 cities before stopping the Settler spam!

    However.........this is with one HUGE exception........since my strategy requires me to play as China and found a religion early, I need to build a Holy Site as soon as I can. This is usually after the first Settler (I don't stop in the middle of the Settler to do it) but if production is high and I haven't found a natural wonder, I might go ahead and build 2 Settlers first. After that, I also need a Shrine. Then back to Settler spam. I may even have my 2nd city help with a Settler or 2.

    Why don't I get a Monument? Because I rarely need the culture that much. I would rather take my time getting the Inspirations than to have more culture to skip them. And I just feel other things are more important. If a city is near the border and loyalty is in question, I might build a Monument as their first thing (or even buy it, if I have the gold) but generally speaking I'll go for a Builder first in my first couple cities after the capital. After I can make Harbors, Commercial Hubs, or Campuses, I'll generally make that first in my new cities (in that order of preference), followed by Lighthouse/Market/Library, followed by a Trader if applicable. Industrial Zones/Workshops take precedence once they become available.
     
  15. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I was just recently playing this game and I was going early war with a bunch of swords.
    I was going for a Great General but Germany was so far ahead in that department I gave up on the idea.
    Oddly enough I popped a Great Prophet very late from all the cities I captured from Khmer.
    This never happens to me but I got a really nice Religion Rolling down the line that held my cities.

    I dunno... Monuments seem pretty good to get to PP faster and Feudalism ASAP.
    All in your choice or style or what you like but Monuments seem important.
     
  16. tiamats4esgares

    tiamats4esgares Chieftain

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    I don't see what Feudalism has to do with Monuments or founding an early religion?

    By "PP" do you mean "Prophet Points"? No idea what that stands for...and if so...a single Holy Site and a Shrine, built as early as I said, is plenty fast enough to found a religion. No need to rush Temples on the civic tree; I'd have a religion before I could even get it. If anything, I could build a Holy Site in my 2nd city, but this is totally unnecessary and may even be too slow to help.

    For clarification purposes, I'm going for a Diplomacy victory, not that I think that matters in this case. And, by the way, I have 14 DV points at turn 211, set to win at turn 281 at the very latest and that's if there's not an emergency I can help with before then.......hasn't been one the entire game besides city states being taken over. So I'm more than likely going to win, it's just a matter of hitting "end turn" 70 times lol.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Political Philosophy... often shortened in these threads as 4 slots is 1.5x better than 2.

    The thing with builder first is getting to agoge earlier which means a faster army as well as better production making it. Sure you cannot always get 3 hills but often 2 hills and a farm will do. Yes riskier than slinger but I find slinger riskier than scout so there you go... I do not use my scout to explore, I use it to defend. On deity it’s pretty much a waste to explore unless you need the era points from civs and wonders... but PP needs meeting 3 CS so I normally will get it out looking for those 3 once I have some army protection.
    The moment I meet a civ my scout stick with that civ and you can often see it moving troops toward you which you can block while you build a second warrior which by far outstrips a slinger before archery.
    Sling seems to be for the eureka and getting archers fast. Early attacks now target your city so putting your archer there is a fail, you need a well place wooded hill which is not always so easy to have.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 12:02 PM
  18. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    From my understanding, on Deity, Religion isn't worth it.
    However, I have seen some really smart players use it to obtain very fast victory times.
    That being said... what they are doing is complicated and optimal play.
    Well thought out precise play for the most part.
    Religion is Fun, IMO, but it certainly is a ton of hammers invested.
    I have read that the only good thing in Religion is Choral Music.
    I have seen some cases made for Jesuit Education or Reliquaries.
    Victory, Map, Civ dependent etc etc...

    Yes I was saying PP as Political Philosophy into Feudalism for the extra charges for builders.
    You will find if you read a lot of the strategy on this forum and other areas that preaching or the mantra is Builders and as many Charges for Builders as you can get.
    LL (Lilly) stated something awhile back that he pops out at least one every third turn.
    After Feudalism I believe as that is when you want to amass your Builders.
    You can see Victoria talking about the Pyramids and getting Liang for those 7 or 8 Charge Builders!!
    I have even read that it is best to chop in Builders!
    Many others state that in peaceful games the most important unit is Builders.
    So pushing Culture anyway you can get it seems very important.
    Of course that doesn't mean you won't win... survive the Early Game and you Win (basically).

    Honestly though, I have never been able to win super fast or play optimal.
    My fastest finish is around turn 150 on Deity Standard Pangaea.
    And that is pretty rare for me actually... I am more in the 220 to 300 range.

    So, my point was that the faster you push Culture the better.
    This means that Monuments seem important to me but I could be wrong about that.
    Faster Feudalism is tied in with Culture and the more Monuments you have the more Culture?

    One thing does seem clear is that Warmongering for Pillaging seems to beat Peacemongering.
    However, other players say that the benefits of Peaceful play equalize Warmongering :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 12:31 PM
  19. tiamats4esgares

    tiamats4esgares Chieftain

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    Ah, ok. I see now why he mentioned Monument then. But as I said earlier, I don't think the small boost will help much since it already takes a while to improve 3 tiles and find another continent (I mean, that part is random, but generally speaking) so it usually times out about perfectly and you don't need the extra.

    As far as getting Agoge and PP earlier, I don't think it's that big of a deal because, something I forgot to mention in my first post...........I didn't build an army........like at all.........and I still didn't get attacked. This is how un-aggressive the AI is when you are on an island by yourself. I need to stress just how much I did NOT build an army. Started with a Warrior. Built a Slinger first. Slinger eventually dies to barbarians. Bought 2 galleys. One eventually dies to barbarians. Warrior eventually dies to barbarians. Bought a Courser to kill barbarians. As of turn 212, I have TWO MILITARY UNITS: A galley and a Courser. That's it. Period.

    I can see on Continents/Pangaea how important building an army is, but I chose to avoid that issue. XD GG.

    The island I started on had a city-state on it, and enough room for 3 good cities and 2 crappy cities at the top of the map in tundra/snow (one I settled as my 11th city around turn 190-195, and the other I will settle soon but still haven't yet). There was a small island to my east that I thought had Barbarians so I ignored it and it had room for 2 decent towns. Turns out there was a barbarian encampment on the secluded other side of a small lake from that island, and it was spawning ships that attacked my units trying to explore the island. Anyway, to my south was an island with enough room for 2 good cities but had barbarians so I ignored it.......never built anything there. West of my city was a 2 tile island I eventually settled. Southwest of that is an island with enough room for 2 cities, and west of that another island for 2 cities. So I settled ALL that land, it will be a total of 12 cities once I get the last one, and not a single one was considered aggressive or stepped on anybody's toes. There's no civ sharing an island with me at all, and I'm on 5 islands. Nobody has tried to attack the city-state on my island, and now that's impossible without planes as my own borders and mountains block access to it, and I don't do open border treaties with anybody. And I'll win before Flight is researched anyway (or if it's researched in time, it's highly unlikely they'll attack that city AND be able to get it AND be able to keep it AND turn aggressive AND attack me AND cripple enough that I can't still win by turn 281).

    I founded a religion, as I needed it for the Mahabodhi Temple, which is actually the main reason I'm even playing China. I also built the Statue of Liberty but it was ridiculously easy with Gustave Eiffel; I was able to build it in 2 turns. I had Filippo Brunelleschi for backup and didn't even need him. I also built the Temple of Artemis because nobody else could, I could quickly, and had nothing better to do, so why not? xD

    Anyway, all I invested to found the religion is the hammers it took to build the Holy Site and Shrine, and the gold for the Temple (as well as losing that district slot and space in my capital city). That's it. I'm sure it helped me more than it hurt in the long run.

    Interesting that people regard builder charges so highly. Do I get bonus points, then, for playing China? And on that matter, why don't I ever see China mentioned as a good civ for Diplomacy victory? :( Maybe my method is a little odd, but it worked...)

    A builder every third turn? That's a bit much. They can only do so much and eventually you don't need them anymore.

    A victory on turn 150 in diety is super early to me, it sounds. 220 not even that bad. I'm on a pace to win on turn 281, though I'll win on turn 251 if I'm lucky which sounded early to me haha. Hasn't been any emergencies though. I figured there'd be at least one, if not 2. If I had something to throw my gold or production at to shave off 30 or 60 turns I could have easily won on turn 251 or even 221! Oh well; whatever. THAT SAID, I have disasters set to 0 so maybe it would help to turn them up, so that other people have disasters I can help with? Idk. Haha. I kinda just figured I don't like them but maybe they're useful for a Diplomatic Victory, never even thought of that.

    The last thing I'll say is that going for Diplomacy Victory, Culture's main importance is just making sure I get to the Mahabodhi Temple and Statue of Liberty in time to build them before anyone else, but I didn't have an issue with that this game, my first Deity game. I don't really think they are wonders that the AI prioritizes. Also, I have no idea how easy or hard the Mahabodhi Temple would be to build if I wasn't playing China, but I suppose a wonder that early might not be too hard to chop out as someone else. Of course they'd use more builder charges (which they have less of to begin with) and make that tile worse the rest of the game to do it, but meh.
     
  20. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    I thought the same things you are posting here.
    I used to think I didn't need workers or builders cause I can win without them.
    I said I only need 3 charge builders... bahhhh!!
    However, it seems the more you improve your land the faster and bigger the snowball gets rolling.
    It seems that going builder heavy or faith buying builders/settlers in Golden Ages is kinda a big deal.
    Now I work my games around getting out builders when I can get 5 to 7 charge builders or 8 with China.
    I admit that having Super Builders is better than it seems.
    I still struggle with stringing together all Golden Ages but when I do I see how easier the game is.

    It sounds like you got things worked out to the way you like it.
    No worries... I was just making a comment about how I think Monuments are kinda important but like I say I could be wrong.
    Most players seem to not enjoy Diplo Victory or the way it works so most of us do not choose that path.
    I seen LL and some others write about it and I guess the main issue is how long it takes to trigger it.
    Supposedly there is a glitch in it as well.
    Hope to see you around the boards and play some of the GOTMs!!
     

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