No, but you don't master chess without being able to think things through in depth and detail either.
General Philosophy Shifts for Civ5: Only Broad Changes Here
- Thread starter cassembler
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No, but you don't master chess without being able to think things through in depth and detail either.
Precisely.
cassembler
typically in screensaver mode
Chess is a wonderful example, thanks! Chess, at a fundamental level, is micromanagement, in the sense of having complete control over each unit's movement (similar to how unit movement works in Civ).
The main differences are:
-In Civ, you move tens (or even hundreds) of units each turn
-In Civ, you likewise make dozens or hundreds of resource-based decisions each turn
-In both games, each decision you make adds up to your strategy (or lack thereof)
So, what the 'macromanagers' are asking for is methods to execute decisions for these dozens of 'decision groups' more efficiently than going through each one, one by one. None of us are arguing that players shouldn't be able to actually make each decision one by one, we just don't want to be forced to make them one by one.
The science example wasn't me arguing that maxing out science early game is a bad strategy, quite the opposite. But if you want to raise money instead, the option is there. And when you need the money for maintenance, the game automatically adjusts it. But if you want, you can tweak it. All is well here
.
Same goes for tile management- the AI will put people on tiles pretty well, but sometimes you want to tweak things for a different strategy. But you don't have to.
So what about production queues? Why can I not say, "These four cities need to focus strictly on military production," and have the AI build barracks, defenders, and offensive units in an intelligent manner, without me having to tell each city "Do X, then do Y, then do Z, Then do X, then do Z, then do Y?"
Thus my argument for grouping cities into states and assigning commands at a broader level. For the micromanagers, this works because A) you don't have to make states, and if you do, you can still adjust individual cities as you see fit. [In fact, throw in governors with character- assign Bob Muluga as Governor of this state (barracks and infantry are 10% cheaper, but each city produces 10% less food).]
Sounds yummy to me...
There is no argument here, this 'micro vs macro." It's the same coin.
The main differences are:
-In Civ, you move tens (or even hundreds) of units each turn
-In Civ, you likewise make dozens or hundreds of resource-based decisions each turn
-In both games, each decision you make adds up to your strategy (or lack thereof)
So, what the 'macromanagers' are asking for is methods to execute decisions for these dozens of 'decision groups' more efficiently than going through each one, one by one. None of us are arguing that players shouldn't be able to actually make each decision one by one, we just don't want to be forced to make them one by one.
The science example wasn't me arguing that maxing out science early game is a bad strategy, quite the opposite. But if you want to raise money instead, the option is there. And when you need the money for maintenance, the game automatically adjusts it. But if you want, you can tweak it. All is well here
.Same goes for tile management- the AI will put people on tiles pretty well, but sometimes you want to tweak things for a different strategy. But you don't have to.
So what about production queues? Why can I not say, "These four cities need to focus strictly on military production," and have the AI build barracks, defenders, and offensive units in an intelligent manner, without me having to tell each city "Do X, then do Y, then do Z, Then do X, then do Z, then do Y?"
Thus my argument for grouping cities into states and assigning commands at a broader level. For the micromanagers, this works because A) you don't have to make states, and if you do, you can still adjust individual cities as you see fit. [In fact, throw in governors with character- assign Bob Muluga as Governor of this state (barracks and infantry are 10% cheaper, but each city produces 10% less food).]
Sounds yummy to me...
There is no argument here, this 'micro vs macro." It's the same coin.
cassembler
typically in screensaver mode
I say push the envelope. Civ IV is great, and the mod community will keep it alove for at least another decade (look at Civ2 & 3, alive and well). But what's that point of making a Civ V that's really just a modded Civ 4?
RedRalph
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 20,708
I agree, but some people seem to basically want an amended Civ4. I think its a great game, but I'm hoping civ 5 will have a vastly improved diplomacy, resource and stability system. I'm not pushed about the graphics; I hope they arent as cartoony as Rev, but even if the worst happens and they are I'll still give the game a go. I would hope that as Rev is going to be a less complex, more cartoony verison of Civ, firaxis will consider that potential market to be catered for and allow Civ5 to be a more detailed game aimed at serious strategy fans.
LAnkou
Breizh A Tao
I don't know if it's get in the broad hange category, but about rushing wonders, i always thought of a engineer rushing the sistine chappel to be quite strange...
I would prefer that the GP rushing a wonder to be of a certain type: a scientist for the great library, a prophet for stonehenge, an artist for the sistine chapel...
If it's too narrowed, you could imagine that different GP type could rush a wonder: notre-dame could be rushed by either an engineer, an artist or a prophet!!!
That would mean that the great engineer would need another use than rushing. When you look at the rushing equivalent for other GP, they either build a specific building (academy, shrine) or give a given amount of a system point (gold, culture, espionnage point). Since rushing is equal to get a given amout of hammers, engineer would now get the other thing, a special building. +100% hammers is too big, but if someone have an idea ...
The great broad change i would like to see in Civ 5 is about culture.
In civ4, apart from landgrabbing (and defending and number of turn of revolution), it doesn't do anything. Culture should have impact on diplomacy (i like your culture +1/your culture insuport me -1), science (cultural tech being cheaper if you get a certain amount of culture in your empire, but never discover a tech for you), happiness (if the culture of the former owner of a city can give you unhappiness, why isn't there a bonus +1
we love our glorious culture ?). Finally, the culture winning conditions is to be redone, because even if some players find it interresting, most of people don't like it. However, i don't have any idea about how to do it properly
I would prefer that the GP rushing a wonder to be of a certain type: a scientist for the great library, a prophet for stonehenge, an artist for the sistine chapel...
If it's too narrowed, you could imagine that different GP type could rush a wonder: notre-dame could be rushed by either an engineer, an artist or a prophet!!!
That would mean that the great engineer would need another use than rushing. When you look at the rushing equivalent for other GP, they either build a specific building (academy, shrine) or give a given amount of a system point (gold, culture, espionnage point). Since rushing is equal to get a given amout of hammers, engineer would now get the other thing, a special building. +100% hammers is too big, but if someone have an idea ...
The great broad change i would like to see in Civ 5 is about culture.
In civ4, apart from landgrabbing (and defending and number of turn of revolution), it doesn't do anything. Culture should have impact on diplomacy (i like your culture +1/your culture insuport me -1), science (cultural tech being cheaper if you get a certain amount of culture in your empire, but never discover a tech for you), happiness (if the culture of the former owner of a city can give you unhappiness, why isn't there a bonus +1
we love our glorious culture ?). Finally, the culture winning conditions is to be redone, because even if some players find it interresting, most of people don't like it. However, i don't have any idea about how to do it properlyNeither.
I would ideally want Civ 5 to be the improved and expanded version of Civ 3 that Civ 4 should have been, and to trash the majority of changes made between Civ 3 and the existing Civ 4.
Amen to that, though I'd feel more confident about it if there was any indication of a PC port of Rev due any time soon.
Scilly_guy
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 403
As Cassembler says, civ iv will be kept alive by the modding community and it has a lot of potential on that front. I say Civ IV should have completely different graphics and be a new game.
I was talking about how culture can make civs more alike in Rysmiels thread on civ traits etc. So instead of cultural borders being the borders that define your territory they describe how alike two civs are. So by exporting films and music you can make distant countries more like yours. Also having vassal states, colonies and taking slaves would cause mixing of cultures, I am thinking of the large influence Pakistan and India has had on English culture, and the effect when slavery was abolished of all the Afro-Caribbean workers in many countries, namely US and UK. I mean "going out for an Indian" is now considered a very British thing and I would guess that at least half, if not more of the UK would say that Chinese was one of their favourite meals. I mean what city is complete without China town, even if it is just one street.
I was talking about how culture can make civs more alike in Rysmiels thread on civ traits etc. So instead of cultural borders being the borders that define your territory they describe how alike two civs are. So by exporting films and music you can make distant countries more like yours. Also having vassal states, colonies and taking slaves would cause mixing of cultures, I am thinking of the large influence Pakistan and India has had on English culture, and the effect when slavery was abolished of all the Afro-Caribbean workers in many countries, namely US and UK. I mean "going out for an Indian" is now considered a very British thing and I would guess that at least half, if not more of the UK would say that Chinese was one of their favourite meals. I mean what city is complete without China town, even if it is just one street.
Deep Thought
S.A.G.A.P.O
CIVICS
-Economic (Directed into wealth and large city account)
-Authorian (Directed into obedience and ruleship)
-Intellectual (Directed into knowledge and technology)
-Artistic (Directed into culture and happiness)
-Aggresive (Directed into war and soldier promotion)
-Calm (Directed into defense and diplomacy)
-Spiritual (Directed into religion and worship)
-Effectivistic (Directed into industries and production)
-Expansive (Directed into growth and world discoveries)
-Imperialistic (Directed into national expansion)
-Clinical (Directed into health and enviromental protection)
CIVILIZATIONS
Before you start, you select the two civics you want for your civ. Then it selects the civ that has one of these 66 (11*12/2) possible mixes.
Here are a few examples:
Capitalistic Empire
Economic and Effectivistic
National Arms: Coin
National colors: Sky blue and green
Peaceful Empire
Calm and Spiritual
National arms: Peace sign
National colors: White and sky blue
Fundamentalistic Empire
Authorian and Spiritual
National arms: Holy book
National colors: Purple and white
Colonistic Empire
Economic and Imperialistic
National arms: Streamer
National colors: Silver and red
Engineeral Empire
Intellectual and Effectivist
National arms: Gear wheel
National colors: Beige and brown
Communist Empire
Authorian and Expansive
National arms: Hammer and sickle
National colors: Red and yellow
Ecotopian Empire
Calm and Clinic
National arms: Tree
National colors: Emerald and white
Sensible Empire
Economic and Intellectual
National arms: Leftwards arrow
National colors: Dark blue and white
Silly Empire
Creative and Aggresive
National arms: Clown face
National colors: Pink and dark grey
Romantic Empire
Economic and Creative
National arms: Heart
National colors: Violet and orange
Astronomic Empire
Intellectual and Expansive
National arms: Constellation
National colors: Turquoise and black
Medical Empire
Intellectual and Clinical
National arms: Red cross
National colors: White and red
Radioactive Empire
Intellectual and Aggresive
National arms: Radioactivity sign
National colors: Lime and yellow
-Economic (Directed into wealth and large city account)
-Authorian (Directed into obedience and ruleship)
-Intellectual (Directed into knowledge and technology)
-Artistic (Directed into culture and happiness)
-Aggresive (Directed into war and soldier promotion)
-Calm (Directed into defense and diplomacy)
-Spiritual (Directed into religion and worship)
-Effectivistic (Directed into industries and production)
-Expansive (Directed into growth and world discoveries)
-Imperialistic (Directed into national expansion)
-Clinical (Directed into health and enviromental protection)
CIVILIZATIONS
Before you start, you select the two civics you want for your civ. Then it selects the civ that has one of these 66 (11*12/2) possible mixes.
Here are a few examples:
Capitalistic Empire
Economic and Effectivistic
National Arms: Coin
National colors: Sky blue and green
Peaceful Empire
Calm and Spiritual
National arms: Peace sign
National colors: White and sky blue
Fundamentalistic Empire
Authorian and Spiritual
National arms: Holy book
National colors: Purple and white
Colonistic Empire
Economic and Imperialistic
National arms: Streamer
National colors: Silver and red
Engineeral Empire
Intellectual and Effectivist
National arms: Gear wheel
National colors: Beige and brown
Communist Empire
Authorian and Expansive
National arms: Hammer and sickle
National colors: Red and yellow
Ecotopian Empire
Calm and Clinic
National arms: Tree
National colors: Emerald and white
Sensible Empire
Economic and Intellectual
National arms: Leftwards arrow
National colors: Dark blue and white
Silly Empire
Creative and Aggresive
National arms: Clown face
National colors: Pink and dark grey
Romantic Empire
Economic and Creative
National arms: Heart
National colors: Violet and orange
Astronomic Empire
Intellectual and Expansive
National arms: Constellation
National colors: Turquoise and black
Medical Empire
Intellectual and Clinical
National arms: Red cross
National colors: White and red
Radioactive Empire
Intellectual and Aggresive
National arms: Radioactivity sign
National colors: Lime and yellow
Scilly_guy
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 403
Are there not 110 combinations? I mean I did get and E for A level Maths stats module, but I thought it is a case of 11 ways to choose the first times 10 ways to choose the second, 11x10=110, ah but then order doesn't matter, so it is halfed, 55, I don't know I guess you were probably right with 66, like I said I got an E for stats.
Instead of calling them civics call them traits.
I would much rather [political] leaders having traits than entire civs, no civ is the same from the beginning of time to the end, so either allow the player to choose the leader from a reduced list (3 different possible leaders) every 50 turns or some other mechanism, so long as ultimately the player can influence the result.
Instead of calling them civics call them traits.
I would much rather [political] leaders having traits than entire civs, no civ is the same from the beginning of time to the end, so either allow the player to choose the leader from a reduced list (3 different possible leaders) every 50 turns or some other mechanism, so long as ultimately the player can influence the result.
Lockesdonkey
Liberal Jihadist
I had a mechanism for handling changing civ traits over time developed somewhere...I'll find it...eventually...
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