Germany ideas?

[Theophilos]

So I wonder which civics to go for with Germany? And what choice to do for the protestant reformation?

I loved republic so much as Italy I am trying it as Germany. I am not sure it will be very smart, but most of my cities are working on lots of lumbermills. I have been getting great statesmen and artist, and one great prophet (I assumed I would need it to build the protestant holy site, but now I see it is automatically built if one does accept reformation)

At 1460, I have 2 great statesmen and 1 great artist in Wien, with 1 great prophet waiting for me about to creat protestantism.

At some point I went monasticism and meritocracy to help great persons and to make the german "leadership pikeman" even more impressive to steamroll france and spain. (which they are doing very well)

I only have 2 catholic vassals (poland and france), and am about to attack spain to complete the objective.

BUT, I do not know if I am already too far behind on great persons, and I don't know if I should accept the reformation, or to just tolerate it. I worry about poland or france becoming protestant, and if they do and I accept the reformation, I cannot just demand them to switch back to catholic for the 2nd UHV.

But, also, I think that if I aid protestantism, and force it over all europe, it might help me get to the 8 pleased nations for the 3rd UHV.

How does one even complete the 3rd uhv, to have 8 pleased non vassalized relations in europe? Will I have to release italian city states and hope italy forms? Will I have to let myself become a very small nation, so the capitulation of poland france and spain stop?

And please tell me what you think is best civics for this playthrough

 

[Theophilos]

Okay I finished it at 1810 on normal speed and the default difficulty I forget the name of it.

I setteled one settler bordering the alps in a core area, and another was on the northern end of the core area. So I had 3 core cities, and they all seemed quite good with all the lumbermills and green land providing food. I razed venice to make more space for the alps city and vienna to work. (maybe this was a bad idea, because theoretically having italy in the game at some point somehow could help get another pleased relation). SAdly you must give up those two settled cities when prussia spawns, but by then they dont matter for victory.

It turned out Republic worked just fine, I had plenty of great people to spare. I always kept my specialists mostly on great statesmen or artists in all my cities, most of the time just so I don't have to worry really about it being wrong one for UHV. Republic is very nice with all the free food from the great persons in the capital. I had good production too. Almost feels like its broken that great people give you food from republic, since it allows such a large city and thus so many specialists (especially if you build the national wonder to give you tons of happiness) The only drawback was for republic it seemed my research took awhile to do well, since I wasn't able to use scientists without risking wrong great person, and cant really use cottages.

To get pleased relations I allowed myself to get small, and I used extra great statesmen to improve relations with civs which had a bad history (move them onto their capital and click to improve relations) It was difficult to cease capitulation but if you demand a lot of resources they might declare war. I think having non-friendly relations helps, but really I had to reload and try different things to get them to declare war instead of just giving in to all my demands (even if they were over the 50% threshold). After you end the war, just keep being nice and give in to any requests. Try not to sack cities because that gives permanent negative malus which I could only fix with the great statesmen.

PROTESTANTISM I delayed discovering the protestant tech because I did not want to risk any catholic vassals converting and ruining 2nd uhv. Please note that if you convert to protestantism when discovering it, you get the religious wonder for free. (I made a great prophet to build it but discovered this was not really necessary) When I completed it, I converted and made sure to make the rest of europe also protestant. I felt that religious unity would help get pleased relations. Protestant probably easier to do this as because those that convert are hard to convert back to catholicism, and prussia usually is protestant. Counter reformation nations can simply be forced to convert, if there are any, since they declare war on you. Others you can just send missionaries


CRUSADING to holy land, seljuks attack at some point so you have to worry about that. When I went, I was moving through ottoman territory at war, ignoring the cities walking straight to jerusalem to save time, and to not get attacked by seljuks. Seljuks attacked ottoman cities with a script while I was traveling, and took all the cities. Since we are both at war with ottomans, they allow open borders. I went to sinai, and waited for the seljuks to collapse, and then took jerusalem from indipendents. if the seljuks did not collapse, IDK how I would have taken jerusalem.

PRUSSIA: When prussia spawned they did not start at war with me. but in another save, they did declare war. If they start at war, ..... well.... maybe I would have taken until 1840 then lol. Either way, I used a great statesmen to improve relations with them right away, because they already have anger over borders.

 

[Kott]

How to prevent European countries from capitulating each other?
In my last attempt Spain got France as a vassal and Portugal did the same with Prussia.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I guess 600AD is a near requirement? If the AI doesn't build their shrines, which they often slack on, there just isn't time to pop a Great Prophet.
My opening moves are to found Augsburg and Braunschweig, switch to Conquest and Monasticism while my settlers are moving (I switch to Meritocracy and Republic when I get Education), open borders with Charlemagne with a gift of 30gp and move the entire starting army to Rome, ignoring Venice. All cities and workers are focused on building a road from France to the Arab lands, maybe set one to build an extra catapult. After conquering Rome it's a mad dash on Normal speed to beat the Seljuks to Jerusalem.

FYI, the list of "European" civs appears to be as follows in the game code (lCivGroups[0] in Assets/Python/Consts.py)

Greece,
Rome,
Byzantium,
Vikings,
Moors,
Spain,
France,
England,
HolyRome,
Russia,
Netherlands,
Italy,
Poland,
Portugal,
Germany

The Moors are easy to forget I think, they make a good target for capitulation and conversion. The second Moorish leader is a lot nicer than the first, but is more likely to run Theocracy.

I too am struggling with UHV3. Though on paper there should be enough civs to have vassals and friends, with the way the AI behaves too many collapse or conquer each other. Breaking your vassalages seems to be the best bet. Thanks to city liberation bonuses your former vassals will probably be good friends if you weren't too awful before. This also prevents the annoying "We are worried about our rivals being your vassals" penalty. I think colonial powers are also a good target for capitulation as they get lots of resources and when they become a colonial empire will be unlikely to take your horsehocky.

In my last attempt, I embraced the Protestant reformation, but spread Catholicism around and converted back to it. I like this and want to stick to it, it's a free shrine and a big bag of cash and any wars where you are not the aggressor is a bonus imo. The only thing I may do differently is purge Protestantism from cities that flip to Germany to encourage Frederick to convert. I think fighting Frederick can be advantageous too, weakening his army will prevent him from terrorizing your neighbors and gifting cities on your own terms will make him like you more.

How to prevent European countries from capitulating each other?
In my last attempt Spain got France as a vassal and Portugal did the same with Prussia.

You may have to keep an eye on Europe and try to broker peace deals so AIs don't conquer each other. Of course though that doesn't prevent voluntary vassalages.
Conquering the master Civ and forcing them to capitulate will free their vassal. Far from the ideal solution, but at least then you might be able to break your vassal and make them both independent.

 

[Kott]

I see, so the best way seems to be to play kind of Canada style and making peace.
As for Moors - I tries once to tackle them - Theocracy is not a problem, you can change it using a spy and spread your religion the same turn. Maybe repeat twice if Moors have a lot of cities (as you can only have 3 missionaries).

Regarding the 3rd UHV - I also have checked the code and made the following conclusions:
1. Out of 15 listed civs only 13 are suitable for 2nd and 3rd UHV (except you and Rome).
2. It is theoretically possible to use different civs for these UHVs, though it is not that easy. You can try to have Poland, Byzantium and Vikings (all will collapse anyway) as catholics vassals, but I am not sure it is possible.That will left you with Portugal, Spain, France, Dutch, Prussians, England, Greece as 7 out of 8 for the 3rd UHV and you will have to add to the list only one, Italy, respawned Vikings, Moors, Russia.
3. It is definitely possible to convert Russia and have it as a catholic vassal, if you arrive right after the Mongolian collapse, I tried it.
4. There is a possibility of allowing Italy to spawn to be your catholic vassal (along with Poland and Russia, for example). Then you can just take it over later.
5. Not sure if you can liberate Vikings' civ from Independents. It did not work for me with Poland or Italy.