Glory be and don’t call me Shirley.

[qazxc]

Glory be, brothers and sisters! We sho’ is be livin’ in the latter days, Amen!

I seen a "Jewish Cathedral" being build in Timbuktu, instead of a "Great Synagogue."

…Shirley, Firaxis could have asked!

q

 

[Tomoyo]

I suppose they did something like $RELIGIONADJ Cathedral in the text files...

 

[Vael]

It could just be a placeholder name. Specific info is often filled in later while early on concepts (and not specifics) are being hammered out.

 

[tcjsavannah]

Could be worse.. could have been a Communist cathedral.

 

[qazxc]

I suppose they did something like $RELIGIONADJ Cathedral in the text files...

It could just be a placeholder name. Specific info is often filled in later while early on concepts (and not specifics) are being hammered out.

Could be but, I had a larger issue in mind…

Had I trivialities in mind I would have noted that the religious symbol of Judaism is the seven-branched candelabra, (as is the coat-of-arms of the modern state of Israel,) and not the six-pointed star.

For a while now, we have been aware that religions and religious issues should be handled with delicacy and tact.
A “Jewish Cathedral” is plain tactless and lacks the delicacy that borders on the insulting.
From some of the posts I gather that “pigs” are now a food resource on the Civ IV landscape. Is Firaxis going to make a Jewish or a Muslim civ consume pork?

I would like to hear from Firaxis about the nature of their particular implementation of religion in Civ IV.

q

 

[charlesolmsted]

Could be but, I had a larger issue in mind…

Had I trivialities in mind I would have noted that the religious symbol of Judaism is the seven-branched candelabra, (as is the coat-of-arms of the modern state of Israel,) and not the six-pointed star.

For a while now, we have been aware that religions and religious issues should be handled with delicacy and tact.
A “Jewish Cathedral” is plain tactless and lacks the delicacy that borders on the insulting.
From some of the posts I gather that “pigs” are now a food resource on the Civ IV landscape. Is Firaxis going to make a Jewish or a Muslim civ consume pork?

I would like to hear from Firaxis about the nature of their particular implementation of religion in Civ IV.

q

Posts like this are the reason that most computer games stay as far away from religion as possible. I am still trying to figure out how to force "Jewish" bits of data to consume other bits of data that represent pigs.

On a more practical note, it would be interesting if they could give specific bonuses or penalties to certain resources based upon religion. Could having pigs next to a "Jewish" city lower the health of the people in that city?

On a historical note, consider that if the Jews had been living in Northern Europe from very early on, they probably would have no problem with pork. Pigs were filthy animals in the middle east because they ate garbage in the city streets. In Northern Europe, they foraged in the woods for mast - and thus were considered clean animals. So, if Civilization is about allowing for different outcomes than actually happened (e.g. the Maya ruling the world), why shouldn't it allow for Jews to eat pork or build cathedrals?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Because it implies that religious beliefs come purely from practical considerations, not the Word of God. I'm not saying they do or don't, but that can offend some beliefs.

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

Exactly. Yet another reason why I feel that Civ IV should NOT use actual religions, and instead give us generic religions that can be manipulated to make the gameplay for fun (e.g. Monotheism, Polytheism, Sciencism, Hedonism, etc.)

 

[Stilgar08]

So, if Civilization is about allowing for different outcomes than actually happened (e.g. the Maya ruling the world), why shouldn't it allow for Jews to eat pork or build cathedrals?

Don't wanna be funny: Seriously:

Let's just leave out pigs then. Would that be the solution?

I'm not familiar with a lot of rules of the world religions but I'm sure some might not be regarded... As for the pork, they should make sure that this issue will be cleaned up before they ship the game..

BTW, I know, religion is a touchy subject and I don't want to play down the concerns and feelings of a lot of people but we shouldn't forget: It's a GAME... If you take the religious concept too seriously, you open pandora's box here.

If you complain about the pigs the Hindu's and Buddhists have to complain about the cow?? Ok, you could argue that you can use the milk for butter and cheese or, obviously, as milk ...

 

[tcjsavannah]

Exactly. Yet another reason why I feel that Civ IV should NOT use actual religions, and instead give us generic religions that can be manipulated to make the gameplay for fun (e.g. Monotheism, Polytheism, Sciencism, Hedonism, etc.)

Scientology. Voodoo. Man, they missed the boat on some of these.

 

[Ramalhão]

What could Firaxis do about these issues? I have a simple idea: cities using Jewish and Muslim cities don't get any bonus for pigs, Hindus and Buddhists cities don't get any bonus for cows.

Well, it would make people avoid these religions, but it could be done only in cities who had these resourses in their range. I can see in some screens that you can have cities with different religions, so when there's cows and pigs in city range, just don't put the religion who avoid the effects of these animals. What do you think?

 

[qazxc]

I am still trying to figure out how to force "Jewish" bits of data to consume other bits of data that represent pigs.

In much the same way your citizens huddled in their hovels consume their “lemming-on-a-stick”, I imagine.

Could having pigs next to a "Jewish" city lower the health of the people in that city?

Ooo, that’s even more insidious! Pigs only affect Jews’ health?!

On a historical note, consider that if the Jews had been living in Northern Europe from very early on, they probably would have no problem with pork. Pigs were filthy animals in the middle east because they ate garbage in the city streets. In Northern Europe, they foraged in the woods for mast - and thus were considered clean animals.

Ignorance seems to go hand in hand with a positive affection for swine. Garbage in Middle-Eastern streets, while noble pigs graze nobly in the north? Allow me to quote the section headings from a report titled “Human Health Issues Associated with the Hog Industry.”

Section One: Air Quality
• physical effects for hog ILO workers
• physical effects for hog ILO neighbors
• hog ILO odors
• NC studies of mental health effect
• NC vs. Iowa psychological findings
• Effect of odors on asthmatics

Section Two: Groundwater Contamination
• nitrates and drinking water
• NC well testing program
• methemoglobin
• exposure to high nitrates and possible link to reproductive difficulties
• waterborne diseases and well water contamination
• cancer and the need for more research
• community concerns about groundwater contamination from hog operations

Section Three: Surface Water Health Issues
• physician petition in support of hog moratorium in Craven Co.
• Pfiesteria: a potential marker of polluted waters
• Vibrio vulnificus

Section Four: Infectious Disease
• worker exposure to infectious agents
• increased virulence in Salmonella
• prophylatic use of antibiotics
• other swine tract pathogens
• swine or Spanish flu of 1918
• hog as mixing vessel for avian and human viruses
etc...

That last one - “hog as mixing vessel for avian and human viruses”, is the reason we are vaccinated every year.
Full text may be found at: http://checc.sph.unc.edu/rooms/library/docs/hogs/hogs_hhealth.html

So, if Civilization is about allowing for different outcomes than actually happened (e.g. the Maya ruling the world), why shouldn't it allow for Jews to eat pork or build cathedrals?

Because, then Jews won’t be Jews. Religion is not a “Smorgasbord” - one can’t pick and choose the bits one will observe.

q

[Ed for typos]

 

[qazxc]

Exactly. Yet another reason why I feel that Civ IV should NOT use actual religions, and instead give us generic religions that can be manipulated to make the gameplay for fun (e.g. Monotheism, Polytheism, Sciencism, Hedonism, etc.)

Wouldn’t it have been better to somehow “get a religion” and then name it?
For instance: AI ex machina, informs a player that around lunchtime, the great prophet Zork has had a revelation. The player names the religion Zorkism (or any other) and then in the name of Zorkity…
Well, you get the idea. Instead of offending a particular religion, you equally offend all religions.

q

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

Ignorance seems to go hand in hand with a positive affection for swine. Garbage in Middle-Eastern streets, while noble pigs graze nobly in the north?

Priceless

Because, then Jews won’t be Jews. Religion is not a “Smorgasbord” - one can’t pick and choose the bits one will observe.

When it comes to food it is, there are tons of food-rules in the Bible that noone cares about, save perhaps for Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Comes from the ancient Jews attempts to classify everything living into natural beings and "dragons" or something of the sort. One theory is that pigs were avoided in the middle-east because they carried diseases such as trikine-worms (well, thats what theyre called in Swedish). That is; a certain ambivalence allows believers to be true to their religion by not eating what they would not have eaten anyway. Marvelous, everyones happy!

If a Muslim or Jewish civ happend to found a city in the vinicity of large herds of swine (be they eating garbage of nobly prancing around in the woods) cant we just pretend that the food bonus comes from the delicious truffles that the previously mentioned swine find for their antagonist masters?

Ridiculous discussion, if this really bothers you then dont buy the game.

 

[GinandTonic]

Sure, the logic for the pork and shellfish thing was - i always assumed - living in a hot place without refrigeration.

Many taboo's are similar and have some grounding in reality. Dont procreate with members of your own family, cos dam look at (insert yokel region of own country here).

Some wirdly come back for different reasons. Eating fish on a friday for christians doesnt seem to make any senst, but given that fish markets arnt open now on the weekend NOT eating fish on a sat or sun is very probably a good idea. And quite possibly a product of eating fish on a friday.

go figure...

 

[Craterus22]

And quite possibly a product of eating fish on a friday.

I will vote for the mono, poly, etc. idea - otherwise they will really need to get some sign off from various religious organizations (not for permission) for accuracy

 

[charlesolmsted]

I trust the makers of Civilization to do a good job dealing with the issues that will be raised by introducing religion, but I think the general nature of the discussion shows exactly what the potential problems will be. There will always be those who attempt to apply reason and logic to their understanding of religion, and are thus open to considering an alternate path for their religion. On the other hand there will always be people who view all of the teachings of their religion as the literal word of God and who are therefore very hesitant to accept any criticism of that religion or attempt to think critically at all about their religion. The makers of Civilization can never hope to please the latter group, so I think that they should simply do whatever they can to make religion an interesting facet of gameplay for those who fall into the former group.

As for the obnoxious comments raised by qazxc, they are scarcely worthy of response. Fully aware that even if you win an argument on the Internet you are still a moron for entering the argument, I would reply that comparing free-range pigs with pigs raised in modern pig farms is absurd. Where I come from people have been letting pigs roam the forests for mast and fruits for hundreds of years. It is a well-attested practice in Europe going back thousands of years. Pigs raised in such conditions are much less likely to contract disease and parasites, including flu and trichinosis, than pigs that live crammed together in huge factories or eat garbage in the streets of a city.

Perhaps if you had ever seen a pig parlor and compared it with a hog foraging in the woods you would understand the difference. Instead, you looked up some article on the Internet and thought that made you an expert. Furthermore, if you had bothered to read your own article, you would have seen that the very first sentence indicates that many of the health problems associated with raising pigs stem from the transition from pigs "being raised on small independent farms to large intensive livestock contract operations. More hog intensive livestock operations (ILOs) result in more hog waste concentrated in a specific area." It is precisely the concentration of "hog waste" that makes modern hog farming unhealthy - just as ancient cities without adequate sewage systems were unhealthy places.

I am not going to argue any more about pigs (or religion). All I have left to say is that pork chops taste good, bacon tastes good... "Well sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'll never know because I wouldn't eat the filthy m**********r." De gustibus non est disputandem, Jules...

 

[Bungus]

quazxc needs to find something better to complain about..
Somebody wrote an article about health issues regarding beef.. must mean they are filthy disease ridden animals not fit for consumption
Long live bacon

 

[tcjsavannah]

Because, then Jews won’t be Jews. Religion is not a “Smorgasbord” - one can’t pick and choose the bits one will observe.

Obviously you don't live in America. I know people who do that all the time.

 

[thestonesfan]

I imagine it will be called "Synagogue" before the game is released. They've got 6 months to fix it.

But the pork complaint is nitpicking.