Go Navy!

[Tman65]

The usefulness of navies is a fairly hot topic. Some people hate them while some of us love them. In all honesty, both sides have very valid points. Personally, I think Naval Units provide some diversity in the game play, however you shouldn't expect a titanic naval clash with the AI...cause it's not gonna happen. Here are a few ways (in C3C) that you can use your navy to make a difference:

Coastal Defense
- with a well developed navy you can defend your homeland at the enemy's shore...you know when they move and have the ability to plan ahead on how to deal with them. This works can be applicable in all ages (ie before recon is available with flight)
- a balanced navy, can stop the AI from dropping off that one or two harassment units on your shore, either by sinking them or wounding them so they return to port to heal

Invasion
- your navy can help you in different types of assault: A. Marine vs. city B. SOD dropped off on foreign shores

A. Marine vs. city: Not many folks(so it seems) use marines to assault an enemy city and secure a beach head. If you do, your navy can really help make this task easier by bombarding the defenders into submission prior to the shore assault by the marines. Not only can it weaken the defenders directly, but shore bombardment can also reduce city size...thus reducing the defensive bonus. If you have carrier aircraft available, you can use them to kill the defenders after the navy bombardment. Note that if the enemy has fighters or AA in the coastal city you're trying to take, your bombers could take a beating in trying to remove the defenders.

a. Once the marines secure the city, move your transport fleet into harbor, disembark and move out! OR
b. If this is a diversion for your main thrust in another area, fortify your defenders and then use the fleet to help weaken the attackers that are sure to follow. Note, if you're only trying to bleed troops away from your main thrust go ahead and cut all transportation aids (road and rail) for two tiles outside your new border. This will force the counter attackers to stop in front of you forming a killing field.
c. You can alter this a bit and do raids. Bombard a city, take it with marines, raze it, reload and move on. Note that this strategy depends on your navy to cut lines of communication once again to by time for your marines to re-embark on the transport the next turn...if you don't cut the lines, you're marines are probably a goner.
d. All of this is practicable against an enemy on your same landmass as a leap frog method.

Pros of the Navy/Marine approach: 1. Disembarking in a city takes up no movement points, so your tanks, infantry, artillery can move quickly to the next target on the same turn. 2. Taking and holding an AI city as a diversion can allow you to penetrate deep into enemy territory with your main thrust while encountering less opposition. So you can take out the capital (for example) while the AI worry about their occupied city at the coast. Using the bombardment of BB's and DD's gives your troops holding the city a chance at holding out longer...thus keeping the pressure off your main forces longer. 3. Razing cities and/or resources on the enemy's coast can be devastating to productivity, reducing the number of troops you may have to face in the long run. You can also do the raiding in support of a weaker AI and not face a major investment of your own troops while still making an impact.

Cons of the Navy/Marine approach: 1. The major con with this is having to research the dead end tech that yields marines. This simply might not work with your current strategy. 2. Requires you to expend more resources if you're going to a foreign land and go for raids. This is due to having to field two fleets (one for the main force and one for the raiding diversion force).

B. Dropping of your SOD: What is the biggest disadvantage you face when you drop off your forces on another continent? All of your forces, whether it’s MDI's or Modern Armor, have to sit their and take the counter attack on that first turn. If you have artillery or units w/defensive bombardment you can take pot shots at the attackers, but for the most part you have to take one on the chin before you get to take your own swing. How can you reduce the response?

a. Use your bombardment group to hit your target city....hard. If you can (and you should bring enough to do so), redline every unit in the city on the turn you drop off the forces. If they're hurt, they're not gonna hit you.
b. Your carriers with their bombers can help isolate the battlefield by performing deep interdiction strikes to slow down the reinforcements. Go out to max range and bomb roads and rails...especially rails for two tiles. Why max range? Hopefully you're gonna be taking territory pretty soon and your units can use the enemy's roads themselves in a bit so by going out to max you're giving yourself room to maneuver while saying "Ok, the units w/in this area are gonna get that free shot in, but nobody else." As for cutting the roads, you did remember to bring combat engineers to fix them up in a jiff once you get to the breach didn't you?
c. Once you're established your beach head city, you've got some options:
i. You can move some DD's into your city and use them for defensive bombardment on any unit that attacks the city once your own forces move on. I don't think they bombard automatically, you must manually target.
ii. Sail your fleet to the next coastal city/resource you're going for and bombard away. You have the advantage of being able to move a decent distance AND bombard on that turn. Your artillery, moving with your ground forces, stops just as soon as it crosses the border...and then progresses one tile at a time.

Pros: 1. Absolutely the biggest advantage of this is force preservation. If more of your units are healthy and/or survive those first couple of turns to press on the attack, you are in a much better position. 2. Flexibility and options...you decide where you want to land and then can actually make an impact 1st rather than having to stand around and take it.

Cons: 1. Redlining enemy troops in your target city (if your target is a city) may take a turn or two as may using bombers to isolate the battlefield. So, your troops may/should have to in the transports until you've prepared the way. 2. No bombers = no isolation. 3. You won't have quite as many ground forces due to the resources spent on the navy (but the ones you do have will survive longer).

How much is enough?
This is a personal preference really. There are quite a few folks who feel that any navy is too much. However, I feel that the size of your navy should be based on your goals and the age you're currently in.
MA
Invasion: ~6 frigates and enough transports for however many troops you want to land...and a lot of patience as frigates can be rather unreliable.
Standing: ~6-12 (not counting invasion fleet) frigates. You can station your ships in a three ship cell various points for lookouts and shadowing. If something should happen, two can bombard and one can attack.
IA
Invasion: 3-4 Battleships, 2 Carriers (mix load of bombers and fighters for air superiority), 6-8 DD's, transports to suit (Personally, I think cruisers are worthless so I left them out, but feel free to add them)
Standing: 4-6 BB's (to be included in invasion), 1-3 CV's, 10-20 DD's.
Modern
See above...you can add Aegis Cruisers, but odds are your game will be over by this time anyway.

Are navies critical to success? Obviously not given the derision they receive. However, they can:
1. Give you more options on how to attack.
2. Increase your odds on invasion…or the number of units viable left after that first turn.
3. Maybe most importantly…BE LOTS OF FUN!

 

[Invisible Rhino]

The only way to take a well defended AI city with marines is if you are in bomber range, or have several dozen ship bombarders. You need to have all the units redlined to have a decent chance, becasue the attack of marines is so low.

Marine ARMIES however, are a different story and should definitely be used if at all possible!

 

[Tman65]

I must confess that I am currently only up to Monarch...so I haven't experienced the need for dozens of bombardment ships yet...it stands to reason that with the higher difficulty would come a need for a shift in strategy.

Marine armys are definitely powerful...sometimes though I wonder if gaining the power but losing the one (or two) attack turns is worth it.

 

[majk-iii]

Marines?
I say Berserkers!
Just when the AI manages to stiffen their defences with somewhat matching units like muskets in metros and such... along comes frigates... and eventually ironclads, just in time to secure the second era of viking superiority.
Even riflemen behind walls and on hills doesn't stand much chance when redlined.

 

[majk-iii]

... i always keep a load of empty caravelles (elite) fortified on my stacks of frgates, privateers and galleons filled with berserks (armies when possible) and an odd defender.

 

[Invisible Rhino]

Berserkers have an advantage over the best defenders of their age that Marines never will.

Berserker with an attack of 6 will in the worst situation face Musketeers with a defense of 5. Normally it will be Musketmen with a defense of 4, or if you are lucky Pikemen with a defense of 3.

Marines with an attack of 8 will always face huge stacks of Infantry with a defense of 10. By the time you get Marines, the AI will have a complete rail network so if you don't take the city the first turn there will be a lot of Infantry in there.

Berserkers are just sick!

 

[Heroes]

Isn't marine's attack 12 and defense 6?

 

[Ranger99]

I LOVE HAVING A NAVY!

My Navy ALWAYS rules the seas, and if things happen that i don't like, i can have some 7 carriers, and battleships, along with at least three transports laden with troops to the troublesome area almost immeaditely.

Navies are VERY usefull

 

[Drakan]

Isn't marine's attack 12 and defense 6?

Isn't that in GOTM ?

 

[Tman65]

Drakan and Ifyuan
According to the Civ3C Data Sheet by Lonewolf, it's 12.6.1 :
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/reference/

I'll have to check the civilopedia when I get home. This would mean that marine vs infantry is the same ratio as a berserker verses musket though Not a huge advantage, but helpful.

majk-iii
I didn't include berserkers because I haven't used them....next game maybe

 

[brennan]

In Vanilla/PTW Marines are a rather pathetic attack 8. In C3C this was modified to 12, and the GOTM team usually modify Marines to the attack of 12.

My primary objections to navies (as stated elsewhere) are essentially as follows:

1) The fundamental building block of the game is the city. No naval unit can capture a city, therefore they cannot be considered to be a necessary part of the game.

Given that they are not essential, they must have some use? Well, certain naval units can transport land-based units, so that you can capture cities. The role of all other naval units is to protect your transports, so why not have a large navy? The answer is that it simply doesn't make economic sense:

2)Naval unts are too vulnerable to attack. For the overwhelming majority of the game the enemy can appear out of the Fog, attack, and destroy your unit with alarming regularity. You cannot take advantage of terrain, as you can on land, so mortality rate is high and survivors need to run back to port to heal. This is a big waste of resources that could be better used elsewhere.

3)A number of people have pointed out that many naval units, particularly the Battleship, can be used as artillery, however I must point out how expensive this is in terms of resources, A battleship costs 200 shields, compared to 80 for artillery, and the artillery has a strength of 12, whereas a battleship has only 8. Range and Rate of Fire are the same.

So why use battleships? The argument is that they are somehow safer, because you can have control of the sea, whereas artillery must be landed with a SOD for a turn before use, but hang on a second; if you are landing an SOD next to an enemy city, you have picked a location with a good terrain bonus surely? And landed the best defenders available; and of course all your artillery will get defensive shots at attackers, and you should have a lot of them, I mean you really should be requiring your chosen victim to be able to wipe out a large proportion of your total army in order to destroy the stack, while they suffer from a major disadvantage in terms of terrain. Unless you need to take out a capital, the only requirement of your assault should be to establish a beach-head, so you can pick the terrain to suit yourself and you should not be launching an invasion with less than overwhelming force.

A battleship out at sea benefits from no defensive bonuses and can easily fall prey to a mere destroyer, losing you 200 shields. I would much rather be pouring those resources into a big scary stack of artillery/infantry. Hell, wait a few turns and you can unleash your tanks...

Oh, and stick a fully healed army on top of your stack.

 

[Fried Egg]

brennan

2)Naval unts are too vulnerable to attack. For the overwhelming majority of the game the enemy can appear out of the Fog, attack, and destroy your unit with alarming regularity.

A few well placed subs that scout the outer parametres of your flotilla help alleviate this problem.

 

[Ranger99]

Unexpected Directions is one reason a navy is nice.

Also we have the benefit of carriers. We all know that C3 is a little ways away from reality in some aspects, and one of those would be airpower, although i still find an airforce quite usefull, especially a mobile one based off of carriers. Bombers coupled with off-shore bombardment are very good at softening up a city, to the point that assaulting it becomes easy, your carrier is an effective tool and should be used in accordanace.

 

[Tman65]

The use of navies is a personal preference. All I was trying to do was point out some ways you could use them if you chose. That being said:

1) The fundamental building block of the game is the city. No naval unit can capture a city, therefore they cannot be considered to be a necessary part of the game.

Given that they are not essential, they must have some use? Well, certain naval units can transport land-based units, so that you can capture cities. The role of all other naval units is to protect your transports, so why not have a large navy? The answer is that it simply doesn't make economic sense:

If, by the use of your naval air and/or bombardment forces, you are able to have more of your units undamaged and/or alive when you are able to attack the turn then you have received an economic return for the investment in the navy.

2)Naval unts are too vulnerable to attack. For the overwhelming majority of the game the enemy can appear out of the Fog, attack, and destroy your unit with alarming regularity. You cannot take advantage of terrain, as you can on land, so mortality rate is high and survivors need to run back to port to heal. This is a big waste of resources that could be better used elsewhere.

As Fried Egg mentioned you can use scouts to roll back the fog and allow you to see who's coming. You can also structure your formation so that you BB's and CV's are at the center of a ring of DD's so that the most expensive units are harder to get to.

3)A number of people have pointed out that many naval units, particularly the Battleship, can be used as artillery, however I must point out how expensive this is in terms of resources, A battleship costs 200 shields, compared to 80 for artillery, and the artillery has a strength of 12, whereas a battleship has only 8. Range and Rate of Fire are the same.

So why use battleships? The argument is that they are somehow safer, because you can have control of the sea, whereas artillery must be landed with a SOD for a turn before use, but hang on a second; if you are landing an SOD next to an enemy city, you have picked a location with a good terrain bonus surely? And landed the best defenders available; and of course all your artillery will get defensive shots at attackers, and you should have a lot of them, I mean you really should be requiring your chosen victim to be able to wipe out a large proportion of your total army in order to destroy the stack, while they suffer from a major disadvantage in terms of terrain.

So you would prefer to let the enemy hit you first? While I totally agree with you strategy for defenders and terrain (and artillery too), I prefer to cut off the area I'm in so that the AI has a harder time sending their SOD to hit you on that first turn. If you pound the mess out of all the units you can reach before your troops set foot on shore, then there are fewer of the enemy to hit at you during the AI turn...they'll stay home to heal...letting you pound them w/ships and your artillery which can now move....again before you have to commit your troops to attack.

Unless you need to take out a capital, the only requirement of your assault should be to establish a beach-head, so you can pick the terrain to suit yourself and you should not be launching an invasion with less than overwhelming force.

I prefer my beach-head to roll back the AI culture boundaries a bit if at all possible. So even if all I want is that coastal resource or luxury, I'll try to take out the closest, strategically viable (ie, another resoure or lux or something) cities so that whether I'm keeping the AI city (only w/a wonder ususally) or razing and replacing, my beach-head city is under less direct cultural threat. This also puts more hurt on the AI so they may be more willing to negotiate.

Oh, and stick a fully healed army on top of your stack.

This is probably one of the best force preservers, no doubt about it.

To wrap it up...navies, again, are a personal preference in Civ. You can do a great deal without them. However, if you want to change up your usual game, or maybe you're just a naval buff (like me ) and like to include them, they can add a great deal of enjoyment and flexibility to the game.

 

[brennan]

I wish I could be a naval buff, the improvements to Air units in Civ3 were terriffic, I wish I could say the same about Navies...

I note that your answer to my objections over the resource cost/waste of a navy has been to suggest building more units, good money after bad...

So you would prefer to let the enemy hit you first?

2 options:
1) The enemy are weaker than you -> laugh as they bounce off your stack.
2) The enemy are a threat -> sign ROP, land, conquer as many cities as you can in first turn (tanks/MA are very good at this).
Either way, you will not suffer much damage...

BTW: It is not my intention to sound argumentative, this has been a bugbear of mine for several years.

 

[Tman65]

brennan,
Your comments are not taken as argumentative at all. Going back and forth like this is a great way to learn more about how other folks play the game. So don't worry, no offense will be taken here (and I hope none will be given)!

BTW: On a RL note, I'm sorry you guys are having a rough go at it right now. Those of us here in the US very much stand behind you.

BTTW: Great sig....how many times has just one more turn, turned into a night w/just 2 hrs sleep :0

 

[brennan]

BTW: On a RL note, I'm sorry you guys are having a rough go at it right now. Those of us here in the US very much stand behind you.

Thanks, I think we've come off lightly compared to a number of other countries (9/11, Bali, Madrid...), just getting on with life and trying not to let it affect us (i travelled on London underground 4 times in the last 2 weekends and will be passing through again next week) hopefully these people will realise they are not changing anything.

BTTW: Great sig....how many times has just one more turn, turned into a night w/just 2 hrs sleep :0

Many, many times...

Hey, why is everyone getting up already... oh, time to be going to work *sigh*

 

[Drakan]

Drakan and Ifyuan
According to the Civ3C Data Sheet by Lonewolf, it's 12.6.1 :
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/reference/

Woops ! My mistake. You can tell I never use marines. I was still thinking of them in terms of PtW

 

[KayEss]

You missed out the use of bombarding naval units for harrassment. Sailing along a coast and destroying roads and rails can be quite an effective means to annoy an enemy, especially if you can cut of any resources that may be close enough.

Against humans knowing how to use a navy effectively can give you a distinct advantage. It's much better to sink their transports on the way over than to wait for them to land.

I find Privateers great for harrassment too as you can nearly always catch galleys moving between islands, but their window of effectiveness isn't that big.

 

[Ranger99]

I use Privateers quite a bit too, they don't last that long, but they are a nice means of actually 'controlling' the seas, without declaring war.

Brennan-Your stack of doom strategy works, (I use it sometimes too) but i'd move away from it if i was you, kinda get ready for C4, where artillery and bombardment hurts ALL units in a stack. Just a little thought....