Going "Tall" is bad in this game

[LORD ORION]

Is it actually possible to go "tall" in this game on purpose and do well?

Doesn't seem like it is a good idea to me. I've never been able to get it to work better than going wide.
I find I can grow much faster then my health levels, so I have the same problem as going wide, I am usually pushing -10 health the entire game... until suddenly I reach the right virtues and techs and am +20 health and going higher.
Only at the end can I floor "growth" without worry and have 5-6 +25 pop cities.

Some of the reasons.
1) Health for population comes at a premium price: Clinic, Pharma Lab, Cytonursery all come in a resonable amount of time... but getting to Gene garden (or even going genetic design before robotics) DOES not come at a resonable cost in time. You can easily outgrow your health with population by focuing on food and +growth bonuses.

2) Most +health virtues are better for wide empires, and even when they are best for tall, they still help wide empires.
eg: Community Medicine (+1 health for every 6 pop) vs Mind over matter (flat +7 health) vs Profiteering (+0.5 health per trade route, which is tantamount to +1 health per city)
Community Medicine is VERY helpful to Tall empires, because if helps you overcome the +health premium cost of getting to the expensive health buildings (eg: 18 and 24 pop cities). Problem though: It is in the knowledge path, and it is every bit as helpful to wide empires who will have many cities between 6-12 pop. Also notice that this virtue is also near Networked Datalink and Memeweb (giving -40% penalty to sicence and virtues from cities) which IS essential to a wide empire.
Mind over matter is a flat bonus that is helpful to anyone who can actually manage their health properly (going back to that whole running -10 health for most of the game): Problem though: It is in the "prosperity" tree where all the growth bonuses are (for tall empires, you don't really want these for wide empires)

3) Trade Routes: The more the merrier, because look at all the trade virtues. The prosperity Gift Economy virtue (+3 energy from foreign trade route) is TERRIBLE compared to ALternate Markets (+6 energy per station tier) and Interdependence Network (+25% internal trade route yield)

 

[Gorbles]

Civilisation games have always favoured wide empires over tall empires, that's why there's an achievement for winning the game with three as a certain leader (whose growth actually benefits tall cities) in CiV. Happiness in CiV does a worse job than Health does in BE at limiting this.

That said, the Health problem isn't a problem against the AI. That's the issue here. The negative benefits from Unhealth don't make much of a difference because short of being hopelessly outclassed by the AI resources, you can generally outthink them.

Player vs. player is where it gets more interesting. It'd be interesting to see how going tall vs. wide on a Duel map (or slightly larger for the sake of argument) makes a difference assuming the wide player didn't really care about Unhealth and the tall player maximised their Health-per-population.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Well, I play with 5 cities these days (which I'd classify as "tall") and it's working perfectly fine.

The idea behind the health system is that a city becomes self-sufficent once it is big enough and then enables the player to found new outposts. This is done by setting the unhealthiness from pop to <1 (iirc 0.75 on standard map size), so each pop effectively creates 0.25 health (if you have enough local health).

The problem with tall play is that:
(1) There are no National Wonders (like NC).
(2) There are no % based buildings (like University).
(3) The growth formula uses a higher factor (so getting to high pop requires *signficantly* more food.
(4) There is no easy way to aquire extra health early on (no luxuries).
(5) Unhappiness isn't all that bad. You can easily go past -20 without having to worry all that much.

So, yeah, CIV:BE favors wide over tall mechanic wise, but thanks to the short game times (my games are over around turn 230), wide can't really play it's advantage.

 

[Gorbles]

There are a few % based buildings, or so I thought? Soma Distillery (can't remember), but definitely the Terra Vault and I think the Gene Vaults?

 

[LORD ORION]

Some more discussion

Going tall limits you to fewer resource options. (because you control less territory)

Unfortunately the techs that help mitigate this are Supremacy specific; Weather Controller and Orbital Fabricator.

This is further compounded by the fact that you'll be running lots of farms going tall... Vertical Farming and Industrial Ecology is yet another Affinity branch on the outside of the tech web.

Yes, for certain cross affinity levels are useful, but you are really messing up gaining cross affinity levels from the outer tiers of the tech web. That is to say, get your cross affinity levels from the inner parts of the tech web when they are fast to grab, and focus higher levels from the outside branches that are slow.

As shown, you are going to have a bad time going Tall from a gaining affinities perspective. ESPECIALLY if you are a Harmony faction, because you are going to get WAY behind on unit upgrades grabbing those techs on the outside of the web that are nigh essential to Tall empires.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

There are a few % based buildings, or so I thought? Soma Distillery (can't remember), but definitely the Terra Vault and I think the Gene Vaults?

These come way too late to have any decent impact on the game, though (and are only useful for Purtiy players because of the tech path?).

Going tall limits you to fewer resource options. (because you control less territory)

Unfortunately the techs that help mitigate this are Supremacy specific; Weather Controller and Orbital Fabricator.

Not too much of an issue because you get free Affinity ressources at higher affinity levels anyway (and you don't have time to build the higher tier affinity buildings). Lack of luxuries and non-ressource requirements for basic units also mean that ressources in general are less important.

This is further compounded by the fact that you'll be running lots of farms going tall... Vertical Farming and Industrial Ecology is yet another Affinity branch on the outside of the tech web.

You don't need farms. Trade routes, improved basic ressources and basic buildings take care of your food needs. Add a Biowell or two for a city that is significantly lacking in food tiles, but the only improvement you really need as a tall empire are Academies. More info about the Academy spam strategy can be found HERE.

As shown, you are going to have a bad time going Tall from a gaining affinities perspective. ESPECIALLY if you are a Harmony faction, because you are going to get WAY behind on unit upgrades grabbing those techs on the outside of the web that are nigh essential to Tall empires.

As said above: You don't need them. Build 5 cities, beeline cognition, get basic techs, rush the affinity techs and you should finish around turn 230 with size 12-16+ cities. Harmony has one big advantage, btw: Xenomass Wells have the best yield of all affinity ressources and are usually found much more frequently.

 

[LORD ORION]

These come way too late to have any decent impact on the game, though (and are only useful for Purtiy players because of the tech path?).


Not too much of an issue because you get free Affinity ressources at higher affinity levels anyway (and you don't have time to build the higher tier affinity buildings). Lack of luxuries and non-ressource requirements for basic units also mean that ressources in general are less important.


You don't need farms. Trade routes, improved basic ressources and basic buildings take care of your food needs. Add a Biowell or two for a city that is significantly lacking in food tiles, but the only improvement you really need as a tall empire are Academies. More info about the Academy spam strategy can be found HERE.


As said above: You don't need them. Build 5 cities, beeline cognition, get basic techs, rush the affinity techs and you should finish around turn 230 with size 12-16+ cities. Harmony has one big advantage, btw: Xenomass Wells have the best yield of all affinity ressources and are usually found much more frequently.

I read your guide and wouldn't really call it a "Tall" strategy.
It is the typical wide strategy... because you can just keep on expanding the same way forever.

Basically you stopped expanding cities because had no room and you automatically started growing more population in cities without this further expansion.

Regardless, thank you for agreeing, that going tall in this game is terribad. (that is to say focusing on +food, %growth and prosperity, my main complaint)

 

[Acken]

Civilisation games have always favoured wide empires over tall empires, that's why there's an achievement for winning the game with three as a certain leader (whose growth actually benefits tall cities) in CiV. Happiness in CiV does a worse job than Health does in BE at limiting this.

No. Just no. Civ5 is reknown for giving a lot of love to "small but tall" games. Achievements are totally irrelevant as to prove one way or another.

As for happiness limiting expansion worse than BE's health, sure right. Half the people enjoying CBE do it because it's easy to play wide.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I read your guide and wouldn't really call it a "Tall" strategy.
It is the typical wide strategy... because you can just keep on expanding the same way forever.

The thing is... no, you can't. At least not if you want to reach neutral health around the midgame stage. If the game would last long enough you could in theory, but again: turn 230 victory.

Regardless, thank you for agreeing, that going tall in this game is terribad. (that is to say focusing on +food, %growth and prosperity, my main complaint)

Yes "tall" in the sense of CIV5 is dead. Tall in CIV:BE means having less cities with more pops per city, but none of the CIV5 synergy benefits.

 

[Ryika]

Regardless, thank you for agreeing, that going tall in this game is terribad. (that is to say focusing on +food, %growth and prosperity, my main complaint)

Not sure when you came to the Civ-Series but Civ 5 is pretty much the first game ever to define Tall as "Get 4 cities, good, you're done now!" - Many players call this "Small" instead of "Tall", because Tall traditionally did NOT mean that you're done expanding before the midgame even really starts. Tall traditionally focuses on larger but fewer cities, yeah, but they still need to expand their territory throughout the game, that's what forces interaction with other Civilizations because you need more land. Being allowed to be passive for most of the game like Civ 5 did is just horrible design in my opinion. Now, BE doesn't do a much better job unfortunately, but the general design idea works way better.

So my overall opinion: "Small" is dead, "Tall" works quite nicely and is probably one of the, if not the best way to play since the patch reworked health and trade routes.

 

[LORD ORION]

Not sure when you came to the Civ-Series but Civ 5 is pretty much the first game ever to define Tall as "Get 4 cities, good, you're done now!" - Many players call this "Small" instead of "Tall", because Tall traditionally did NOT mean that you're done expanding before the midgame even really starts. Tall traditionally focuses on larger but fewer cities, yeah, but they still need to expand their territory throughout the game, that's what forces interaction with other Civilizations because you need more land. Being allowed to be passive for most of the game like Civ 5 did is just horrible design in my opinion. Now, BE doesn't do a much better job unfortunately, but the general design idea works way better.

So my overall opinion: "Small" is dead, "Tall" works quite nicely and is probably one of the, if not the best way to play since the patch reworked health and trade routes.

For reference I played the original Civ, some SMAC and Call to Power, and then never touched it again until Civ5.

Could you please elaborate or point to info on how you successfully use +Food +Growth and Prosperity in comparison to spamming cities and cherry picking the best Industry / Knowledge Virtues?

I've never been able to do anything except be roughly 50 turns behind the best spam strategies. (for reasons outlined above)

 

[Ryika]

For reference I played the original Civ, some SMAC and Call to Power, and then never touched it again until Civ5.

Could you please elaborate or point to info on how you successfully use +Food +Growth and Prosperity in comparison to spamming cities and cherry picking the best Industry / Knowledge Virtues?

I've never been able to do anything except be roughly 50 turns behind the best spam strategies. (for reasons outlined above)

In BE you get the main chunk of your additional food from tile improvements and trade routes - basically: The bigger the difference between 2 cities, the bigger the food outcome. You don't need prosperity and instead only take the initial settler before you go into Industry/Knowledge. Health is not a problem for tall empires, cities cost 4 Health and 0,75 health per population, but each population can give you 1 health, so if you grow them big enough, cities will actually increase your overall health, which will then again give you city growth bonuses (20% on 45+ health) as well as flat Science- and Culture-Bonuses up to +20% while negative health can bring you down to -50% if you really don't care about it.

 

[Gorbles]

No. Just no. Civ5 is reknown for giving a lot of love to "small but tall" games. Achievements are totally irrelevant as to prove one way or another.

As for happiness limiting expansion worse than BE's health, sure right. Half the people enjoying CBE do it because it's easy to play wide.

It's easier in CiV to expand wide than it is in BE. It's easier in SMAC to expand. It's easier in Civ 1 to expand.

If you can argue against that, then do so. Define "lots of love".

 

[LORD ORION]

It's easier in CiV to expand wide than it is in BE.

I cant agree with that at all... which is the whole point of this thread.

I can spam a dozen cities with my capital being 15 pop and not worry about getting behind in any area.

The basic +health buildings cover new cities with low pop quite easily.

Again, the advantage is you have a crap ton of trade routes, you are cherry picking the tiles with the best outputs, you have a crap ton of +output buildings, you have a crap ton of resources and your health is barely dented if you do it right.

vs

You concentrated on food and growth and are now actively trying to stop your cities from growing because they are outpacing the amount of health you can produce.

Congratulations... you did all that to a) Have less resources and B) be forced to work the "meh" tiles. (until much later in the game)

Dunno what is going on here guys, I see arguments that agree with what I have said, arguments that argue the semantics of what I mean by tall (with counter arguments that agree with what I said) and a whole lot of nothing when it comes to counter arguments of my original complaint that "+food, +growth and prosperity ARE BAD traps that wreck you because" *details*

 

[Acken]

It's easier in CiV to expand wide than it is in BE. It's easier in SMAC to expand. It's easier in Civ 1 to expand.

If you can argue against that, then do so. Define "lots of love".

I won't bother getting into a long and detailed argument with something you seem to be the only one thinking around here so I'll just point to you some mechanics and let you decide:
-harsher unhapiness penalties
-scaling national wonder costs
-non scaling trade routes numbers
-no spammable "happiness improvement"
-no crazy TRs allowing to spam happiness buildings
-many free stuff in your first 4 cities with tradition....

What is easier is to stay positive happy in Civ5 in the early game than it is to stay healthy in CivBE that is true. But that is totally irrelevant because CivBE has only mild penalities during your early expansion period, come midgame you get your virtues, cities get bigger, done, positive. Try going even -5 in Civ5 for long.
After that midgame health is usually an afterthought, happiness is never an afterthought in C5.

If you're not convinced I'm not sure what will. It has been an ongoing argument for people that like CivBE that expanding and playing big empires is easier and more rewarding in this forum.

 

[Gorbles]

The basic Health buildings don't cover new Cities effectively because Unhealth due to population always scales more than the benefits local Health can provide. Any player is ultimately reliant on Eudomania and / or Magnasanti on anything above Sputnik to carry a positive Health value forward.

I'm not sure if you've played post-patch, Acken. Certainly, with your complaints about "crazy Trade Routes" kinda shows that you haven't, because the Trade Routes aren't crazy anymore in BE. Useful, sure. But not crazy.

Also, up to a -40% to Production and various other outputs is a harsh penalty for Unhealth. There is a noticeable difference between being at -20 Health, compared to 0 Health, compared to +20 Health (that's a span of 40% difference in Production if I'm remembering it right, and something like a 150% difference in Intrigue from Covert Operations).

The point about the comparison to CiV is that as you agreed it's easier to be Happy for longer in that game, it doesn't matter how bad the penalties for Unhappiness are if I never get Unhappy in the first place.

Conversely, if you spam-expansion in Beyond Earth (and this is highly dependent on map type / size, good luck on any Archipelago or even the smaller-sized Terran maps) . . . your Unhealth stacks up quite a bit. With four cities early-game it's easy enough to get to around -15 Health . . . and if you go down a dedicated "Health building" tech route you're missing out on some key techs that let you keep ahead of a (non- AI difficulty) opponent. As soon as you invest in Manufactories (which are key in an industrious playstyle) you're going to take severe Health hits per city as well.

 

[Ryika]

Not sure WHAT you do, but from what you're saying it sounds like you're doing it wrong Gorb. Going wide in BE is SO much easier than it was in Civ 5, because at the time you drop into negative health you can just ignore it and as soon as you have biowells researched and your main cities growing beyond 14+ pop you'll never again even come close to dropping into negative health again.

 

[Gorbles]

That wasn't my point, Ryika. My point (and Acken agreed with it) was that it is easier to be Happy in CiV (at least, early-on) than it is to be Healthy in BE. This will affect playing wide strategies when comparing both games.

Also, there are other considerations for going wide in BE like map layout (which I've mentioned) and Station placement (assuming you don't try and bulldoze them all).

My original point was that it is indeed possible to go "tall" in this game. And people really need to stop underestimating the effects of Unhealth. +100% Intrigue from Covert Operations and minus X% to Production is quite a hit, and there are more besides that.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Happiness in CIV5 is a quite powerful mechanic that significantly affects early game growth and expansion. It also interacts with a lot more mechanics (improvements, diplomacy, exploration, city state interaction) from the get-go. There is a lot of choise and management involved to balance it out around the +/-0 level.

Health in CIV:BE is nowhere near as important as happiness in CIV5. It is more or less pointless inbetween the -10 to +10 range and it only starts hurting once you go below -20, but even then you don't have to prioritize it. A pretty significant difference to CIV5, where you'd desperatly try to at least hit 0 and where -20 resulted in actual physical danger for your empire. The only real reason why you'd want to get to positive health in CIV:BE is the Knowledge virtue, since there are no golden ages and the positive effects at 10+ are unachievable for most of the game due to the local healt limitations.

So, yes, staying happy early on in CIV5 is easier to some extend (-> luxuries), but that doesn't matter since CIV:BE handles the penalties completely different.

And I'll repeat myself:
Yes, you can play tall. But that's only reasonable because the game ends so early, not because the actual game mechanics promote that style of play.

 

[Gorbles]

Playing tall in CiV also puts you at a disadvantage as the game drags on. There comes a point where any city, nomatter how "tall", caps out in effectivenes, no?

I'll admit, I'm not as familiar on CiV strategies as I am with Beyond Earth (despite spending a comparable amount of time playing each; I think I was a lot more familiar with the genre / playstyle by the time BE came around) nor am I as comfortable with the higher AI difficulties in CiV compared to BE.