GOMAW 28 AWM wheel

[ThERat]

and the grumpy old men (I do not know whether everyone here fits into that) try the AW game again, this time a notch higher on monarch as the Chinese. In order to be able to cope with the higher difficulty, no tech trading is enabled

the setup, note there is no tech trading

the start

went for BW, now AH, we need the wheel to connect the copper we do have and that is currently being mined by the worker
we are building a rax, which can be changed for a warrior if we feel the need
we have a scouting warrior in the south
after 30 turns (we got some money from huts and a hostile barb so far, no enemy yet)

save

The Grumpy Old Roster
ThERat
Bezhukov - up with 20 turns for everyone during the first rotation
Greebley
knupp715
romeothemonk
T_McC


SG Stuff

Be nice. You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 72 to play. If you need a one day extension, then mention this before the 72 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 72 total, switch places or ask for a skip. You gan go over 10 turns if in the middle of a pitched battle you do not feel can be easily handed off.

and I guess we really need this

 

[romeothemonk]

Looking at this start, I can say WOW!!

Tons of good stuff.

We might have to have a tight core placement to utilize all of these goodies.

How is it possible that all my starts seem very very barren compared to SG starts.

 

[ThERat]

How is it possible that all my starts seem very very barren compared to SG starts.

to be honest, this was the third roll, the others were unacceptable with no proper resources and then no copper. This is meant to be a tough game but we should have a chance to survive here.

in all my other games so far I used the 1st start though

 

[Greebley]

Checking in.

I haven't played China yet (or if I have I don't remember them). I can look it up in the Civopedia, but if anyone feels like giving me a run-down on why they are a good AW civ, the UU, and traits and where you feel we should be heading techwise, it would be appreciated.

It will make sure I am on the same page as everyone else and make sure I am not going for the tech to make those neato Chinese straw hats instead of the UU or some such silliness.

 

[T_McC]

The UU is the Cho-Ko-Nu, a Crossbow with an extra first strike. It also does collateral damage when attacking stacks, so Melee-based stacks should be shredded by the unit.

The capital looks good for troops and Wonders, but lousy for settlers since it's not that food rich. I think we want to settle the 2nd city in a high-food area if possible.

We are Industrious, so of course no Stone. If we want the Pyramids we'll probably have to chop 'til we drop at Beijing. The river forest will obviously come down in favor of a cottage, and I think the one SW of the city is also rather available. I figure we want to cottage the river grass and irrigate the other grass tiles so we have the option to grow more quickly. Irrigating the Dyes would make for a nice tile. Can't tell whether we have forested hills or not in the East.

A city on the Forest E of the Pigs can build a Lighthouse and have 3fpt/3cpt Lake tiles. I don't think Beijing would want those tiles until it was quite large, so the overlap should be negligible.

 

[Bezhukov]

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

 

[romeothemonk]

I think somewhere in Bez's turns or maybe early Greebley's turns we should start the Oracle.
75 shields for a free tech? Done!!

I agree with T_McC's assesment of city placement.

We have Elephants, so a few riders with mounted promotion and some Cho-Ko-Nu's with anti-melee and cover will really own the chokes.

 

[Bezhukov]

Gold+Ivory is a huge help, as it gives us the availability of two happies pre Monarchy/Calendar.

Slight weed on capital site, as it really would benefit from the wheat to the SW. Capitals without food bonuses (especially on Epic) really hurt.

 

[Greebley]

Did we know about the wheat when we settled? I don't think we could have unless one can "fog read" in Civ4 like civ 3. Given that the worker was north, I don't think there was any way we could know and settle to grab it. It could have been in any direction or not exist at all.

 

[knupp715]

Looks like a nice start. The close copper will help out. We won't need to designate a second or third settler solely for that purpose.

Phants near the start again is lucky. Those phants should help out though. I agree with T McC's assesment of settling our second city in a food rich area. That city can pump out the workers and settlers while our capital can get some troops and maybe an occasional wonder.

Starting the oracle does sound like a good plan, but starting it too early means we will only be offered a cheap tech unless we beeline for an expensive tech. Grabbing the forges with a free tech would help. We are industrious and can build them twice as fast.

I think it will really be a good idea going for the great lighthouse and collosus in this game as there is so much water.

 

[ThERat]

Slight weed on capital site, as it really would benefit from the wheat to the SW

as Greebley pointed out, if you look at the start screenshot, the wheat was in the fog at the start and the strting position looked fine to me with phants, cows and dyes. The copper is an added goody for the capital. We sgould irrigate some grass for initial faster growth.
As for the rest, I would try and get out another city, then go for wonders in the capital since it's shield rich.

 

[Bezhukov]

Slight, not serious.

In GOTM4, I moved my settler 5 tiles in search of more fertile ground (and a river. and some forests), so I'm a little different that way. Food bonuses are HUGE early (if you go back and look at the SG's that struggled, more often than not it was due to tardiness in obtaining early citizens).

I may try to get a settler chopped to get us a food bonus worked sooner rather than later.

 

[Bezhukov]

Our empire here:



Switched research from AH to hunting, as it's needed for the Ivory camps, it sped up AH research, and I'll was chopping until AH was done anyway. Used chop-catching to build a settler and warrior while growing to two pop. Third chop went to barracks.

Our southern warrior popped a goody hut, and found... maps.

Hope the second city site works for everyone. Can help along its worker with a chop once the capital is done with its cow.

Dotmaps, T McC?

We are at war with Julius and Nappy. Killed Caesar's scout to get a promotion on Shanghai's warrior, so once he gets an MP can use the promoted one for sentry duty. The southern warrior found Caesar, and has a forestry promotion to help him survive.

 

[Bezhukov]

Unfortunately, our ideal third city would go on that little spit of land east of Shanghai to get access for marble for the Oracle, but we can't get there until sailing, which may be difficult to get in time for Oracle-building.

The other thing that would have suggested moving one tile west before settling the capital is that juicy plains hill to the NW that we'll never get to work.

Suggest going for pottery after wheel to get some cottages started on the river. We'll need pottery to get metal casting from the Oracle anyway.

 

[romeothemonk]

I have to disagree with some of the placement Bez.

I like the location of Shanghai, but it would have been my third spot after pig town.

I agree 100% with the capitol placement. In C3C, one of my favorite games was DocT's "worst start, ever" (Comic book guy voice).

It showed me that with intelligent strategy a poor starting location can be overcome, and I consider this start with the capitol magnificent.

You may have to drop the IE post-mortem analysis of a best judgement move. Although I know very very few IE's that even bother with it.

With this cast of characters, I would suggest letting the bygones be bygones and focus on the task at hand.

I hate facing Praets in AW, but at least the Cho-ko-Nus will eat them for breakfast, if we make it that far.

 

[Bezhukov]

Were this CivIII, there would be no post-mortem. This being CivIV, assumptions (like never moving the starting settler) are still fluid, and bear reflection. Looking back at the starting screenshot, a move one west would not even have cost a turn, would have saved a forest for chopping, would have clearly gained the plains hill, and would have opened up the possibility of several extra bonus tiles while not costing any (even going by the limited information then available - other than the dye, which doesn't need to be in the fat cross anyway). I'm actually surprised that the settler started where it did, instead of the tile one west, as the starting locations tend to be centered in relation to the surrounding resources.

Shanghai can work two food bonuses without a border pop. I'd be interested to hear why pig town would be preferable, especially since I believe the ideal location for pigtown will require sailing to reach (If we don't build it there, we won't be able to hook up the marble and rice).

 

[ThERat]

The Grumpy Old Roster
ThERat
Bezhukov
Greebley - I think Greebley is not around, maybe knupp can take his turns
knupp715 - swap with Greebley
romeothemonk
T_McC

well, it was a decision I had to make, go west and off that forest or settle on the spot. I think in Civ4 the capitol isn't that important due to no-corruption, so it's the overall empire that counts. IMHO we should hook up the copper asap, we need proper defensers soon.

 

[Bezhukov]

"IMHO we should hook up the copper asap, we need proper defensers soon."

This is true. I pondered quite a while between going back for hunting and going for AH then wheel, but decided we needed to get that settler chopped to get us some more citizens, which kept our worker otherwise occupied.

 

[knupp715]

I can play my turns tomorrow. Got the save.

 

[ThERat]

This is true. I pondered quite a while between going back for hunting and going for AH then wheel, but decided we needed to get that settler chopped to get us some more citizens, which kept our worker otherwise occupied.

I think that was a very good move. A 2nd city early is really important, there is always the trade off bewteen chops and connecting resources. I think you did the right thing.