MasterShake
Goofy Boots
Definitly following this one
GOMAW 28 AWM wheel
- Thread starter ThERat
- Start date
Real nice 2nd city, it's a better settler source than Beijing (once it grows a bit) and can also build military as it looks to be able to do 11 hpt at size 4 with a food surplus.
I think the Pyramids are the most important wonder for us. But I also think we need to have two more cities before we put Beijing on Wonder duty. One more production city to replace Beijing for military and a commerce city. Problem is: I don't see an ideal commerce city site yet.
I'll have a look at the map and make my usual overbearing suggestions.
I think the Pyramids are the most important wonder for us. But I also think we need to have two more cities before we put Beijing on Wonder duty. One more production city to replace Beijing for military and a commerce city. Problem is: I don't see an ideal commerce city site yet.
I'll have a look at the map and make my usual overbearing suggestions.
A couple of good cities for our N. The problem with these two is that we need to research Fishing before either is viable. But once we build a Lighthouse in each city, the lake tiles are 3 fpt/3 cpt and each city has enough food to work all of its hills as mined. So neither is a pure commerce city, but each can certainly contribute while it builds other things.
We're going to need many workers with the way our terrain is. I think we're going to have to improve a few tiles ahead of growth at the capital, so we can switch around from high growth to high production to high commerce as need dictates.
"I don't see an ideal commerce city site yet."
I nominate Bejing.
Really, the lack of hills almost dictates it. That and Bureacracy can make that commerce go a long way.
I'm thinking it doesn't look like Pyramids are in the cards this go round. We really need to make an Oracle run to get our cheap forges (and early Colossus) and I'm afraid every other spare hammer will need to go to getting some axes out ASAP. The two towns we have so far will be ideal for commerce (Bejing) and food (shanghai). That leaves production for the next town, with units and Oracle being higher priorities than Pyramids.
That and needing sailing sooner rather than later to get access to the sweet SE city site. BTW, I've never seen a start have such easy access to all three granary health resources. This will come in very handy once we have a culture slider. No one child per family policy for this Chinese empire!
I nominate Bejing.
Really, the lack of hills almost dictates it. That and Bureacracy can make that commerce go a long way.
I'm thinking it doesn't look like Pyramids are in the cards this go round. We really need to make an Oracle run to get our cheap forges (and early Colossus) and I'm afraid every other spare hammer will need to go to getting some axes out ASAP. The two towns we have so far will be ideal for commerce (Bejing) and food (shanghai). That leaves production for the next town, with units and Oracle being higher priorities than Pyramids.
That and needing sailing sooner rather than later to get access to the sweet SE city site. BTW, I've never seen a start have such easy access to all three granary health resources. This will come in very handy once we have a culture slider. No one child per family policy for this Chinese empire!
"I think we're going to have to improve a few tiles ahead of growth at the capital, so we can switch around from high growth to high production to high commerce as need dictates."
I try to follow this policy with all cities. Once a high-food city hits its happiness limit and we have enough cities founded, we can put it on worker production duty to generate the requisite workers (about 1.5 per city, I'm guessing).
Another way to ensure enough workers is to chop a worker in each new city.
I try to follow this policy with all cities. Once a high-food city hits its happiness limit and we have enough cities founded, we can put it on worker production duty to generate the requisite workers (about 1.5 per city, I'm guessing).
Another way to ensure enough workers is to chop a worker in each new city.
knupp715
King
(4) Pillage a Roman mine.
(5) Retreat warrior to a forested hill because Roman archer is chasing us down.
(6) We lose warrior to Roman archer despite being on forested hill. Barb archers are popping up. One is west of Beijing and one is south of Shanghai. We only have a warrior in each city. Plus Shanghai has no culture and could be easily taken.
(7) Beijing--> Barracks--> Warrior (we need sentries/barb watchers)
(8) The wheel is discovered and research is set on fishing on the way to sailing.
(9) Beijing--> Warrior--> Worker
(12) Kill the barb archer east of Beijing on defense with the warrior that was built and promoted to forest defense II.
(16) Kill barb warrior. Fishing is completed and research is set on sailing. Shanghai--> Worker--> Warrior for sentry
(19) Beijing--> Worker--> Axe
We now have three workers.
I know somebody will question why I didn't chop the worker in Shanghai but hooking up copper was much more important.
The warrior being built in Shanghai needs to go south onto a forested hill or forest (it should have forest promotion) and be a sentry and barb watch down there. We will also need a unit to the east of Beijing to sentry/barb watch that choke.
This warrior is on barbwatch duty. He has double forest promotion so can be moved back to Chinese territory quickly if need be.
I personally think we are being to peaceful with our approach. I think we need to have Beijing and Shanghai build axes axes axes. We need sentries at our two chokes. One of these cities need to chop out a settler (with a forest not in our territory as we don't have many) and build a city. I think red dot will be a great production city, lots of hills. Then IMHO we need to get our two choke cities built and up and running.
And the save:
(5) Retreat warrior to a forested hill because Roman archer is chasing us down.
(6) We lose warrior to Roman archer despite being on forested hill. Barb archers are popping up. One is west of Beijing and one is south of Shanghai. We only have a warrior in each city. Plus Shanghai has no culture and could be easily taken.
(7) Beijing--> Barracks--> Warrior (we need sentries/barb watchers)
(8) The wheel is discovered and research is set on fishing on the way to sailing.
(9) Beijing--> Warrior--> Worker
(12) Kill the barb archer east of Beijing on defense with the warrior that was built and promoted to forest defense II.
(16) Kill barb warrior. Fishing is completed and research is set on sailing. Shanghai--> Worker--> Warrior for sentry
(19) Beijing--> Worker--> Axe
We now have three workers.
I know somebody will question why I didn't chop the worker in Shanghai but hooking up copper was much more important.
The warrior being built in Shanghai needs to go south onto a forested hill or forest (it should have forest promotion) and be a sentry and barb watch down there. We will also need a unit to the east of Beijing to sentry/barb watch that choke.
This warrior is on barbwatch duty. He has double forest promotion so can be moved back to Chinese territory quickly if need be.
I personally think we are being to peaceful with our approach. I think we need to have Beijing and Shanghai build axes axes axes. We need sentries at our two chokes. One of these cities need to chop out a settler (with a forest not in our territory as we don't have many) and build a city. I think red dot will be a great production city, lots of hills. Then IMHO we need to get our two choke cities built and up and running.
And the save:
"I personally think we are being to peaceful with our approach. I think we need to have Beijing and Shanghai build axes axes axes."
Dude, ten citizens build axes much faster than five, especially when working improved tiles. I've seen too many AW founder on this point to repeat it.
Apologies for the tone, but I'm beyond tired defending sound general strategies as somehow being mere "builder" preferences.
Barracks-boosted warriors can often defend usefully for quite a while (until barb axes show up), as they're dirt cheap to replace, and often have the upper hand on archers if you make use of terrain and promotions (as Knupp skillfully showed). There is of course some level of risk involved, but there is also a risk - greater I would argue on the evidence of the other SG AW games - in letting the other civs get to 10 citizens before we get to five.
The touchy part was waiting for the barracks to complete. The cost of delaying Shanghai's worker production/food bonus development is a significant delay in getting our third/fourth/etc... cities founded if we expect to produce the settlers for these cities there (which we should, as T McC noted), as it would be best to let Shanghai grow out before building the settlers.
Dude, ten citizens build axes much faster than five, especially when working improved tiles. I've seen too many AW founder on this point to repeat it.
Apologies for the tone, but I'm beyond tired defending sound general strategies as somehow being mere "builder" preferences.
Barracks-boosted warriors can often defend usefully for quite a while (until barb axes show up), as they're dirt cheap to replace, and often have the upper hand on archers if you make use of terrain and promotions (as Knupp skillfully showed). There is of course some level of risk involved, but there is also a risk - greater I would argue on the evidence of the other SG AW games - in letting the other civs get to 10 citizens before we get to five.
The touchy part was waiting for the barracks to complete. The cost of delaying Shanghai's worker production/food bonus development is a significant delay in getting our third/fourth/etc... cities founded if we expect to produce the settlers for these cities there (which we should, as T McC noted), as it would be best to let Shanghai grow out before building the settlers.
I like T McC's two northern city sites, but I think we might need to build a quick city SE first that can work the pigs right away (are there any hills that way?), as we're rapidly falling behind on citizens and hammers. A later city between the marble and rice won't need the pig anyway.
Likewise, pottery and priesthood will be needed next if we're to have a shot at the Oracle.
Likewise, pottery and priesthood will be needed next if we're to have a shot at the Oracle.
ThERat
Deity
I agree to settle on the forest east of the pigs. This will give nice hills to work as well. I would chop the forest there to speed up the settler since we need to settle on top of it anyway.
Also agree to go for priesthood after sailing for the Oracle.
The Grumpy Old Roster (amended due to Greebley's schedule)
ThERat
Bezhukov
knupp715
romeothemonk - up
Greebley
T_McC
Also agree to go for priesthood after sailing for the Oracle.
The Grumpy Old Roster (amended due to Greebley's schedule)
ThERat
Bezhukov
knupp715
romeothemonk - up
Greebley
T_McC
Well ... let's not get too happy with the Oracle build just yet. We need to get a couple of cities down before we tie the capital up with that.
Also, Sailing isn't that useful to us yet, as even if we had a Galley and a Settler next turn we couldn't reach the Marble site due to having no ports on that coast. I think we should research Pottery next so we can build some cottages and use our Financial trait. Pottery is also a pre-req for Metal Casting, which I assume is the intended Oracle target.
Sailing would be useful for the next 3(?) cities we found, but even those cities will work land tiles or build workboats first, so we have some time before the tech is relevant. We could also use a cultural building. I don't think we can build Monuments yet, but in this game they may be relevant since a couple of the city sites will be better placed with food bonuses not in the first nine.
Also, Sailing isn't that useful to us yet, as even if we had a Galley and a Settler next turn we couldn't reach the Marble site due to having no ports on that coast. I think we should research Pottery next so we can build some cottages and use our Financial trait. Pottery is also a pre-req for Metal Casting, which I assume is the intended Oracle target.
Sailing would be useful for the next 3(?) cities we found, but even those cities will work land tiles or build workboats first, so we have some time before the tech is relevant. We could also use a cultural building. I don't think we can build Monuments yet, but in this game they may be relevant since a couple of the city sites will be better placed with food bonuses not in the first nine.
omni_paul
Mr. Shambles
Subscribed . Will definitely lurk this one as I did your AW Hub. I think you're in for a much tougher game this time.
. Will definitely lurk this one as I did your AW Hub. I think you're in for a much tougher game this time.
knupp715
King
@Bez - Well perhaps I'm just being to catious in my approach. However, I don't think it will be too long before AI units start showing up. I think we need sentries up to spot the AI before they get to us and start pillaging our countryside. This time there will be not one, but two choke cities. I'd rather have them up and running sooner rather than later.
Of course, I don't object to building one or two more "good cities" before the chokes then after the chokes backfill our land.
I agree with the city east of the pigs. After that I think maybe we should settle the red city. Sailing was set not only for the red city but I thought you guys were really interested in building a city inbetween the marble and rice. Maybe I misunderstood. Not much research is put into it though so it can be changed
Of course, I don't object to building one or two more "good cities" before the chokes then after the chokes backfill our land.
I agree with the city east of the pigs. After that I think maybe we should settle the red city. Sailing was set not only for the red city but I thought you guys were really interested in building a city inbetween the marble and rice. Maybe I misunderstood. Not much research is put into it though so it can be changed
"Maybe I misunderstood."
I'd love to build a city there, but unless you've got a helicopter boat, we won't be doing so soon, even with sailing. Cain't get there from here.
I like to guard the homefront from within the borders. This requires less units (a couple axes per city, plus an archer or two for mp/backup), it lets more barb units/cities pop up to give us practice/slow down approaching AI, and the units cost less to support.
That means we probably need another 4 axes from Bejing while maybe Shanghai builds one (barracks is less important for axes, as they can bone up on barb archers if necessary) as it grows out. I think the Ivory next to Bejing would make a better cottage than a camp (why are we developing that before Shanghai's food/chops?), as Shanghai could use the extra hammer more than Bejing. A cottage on Bejing's Ivory would get 3 gold right away since we're financial.
I'd love to build a city there, but unless you've got a helicopter boat, we won't be doing so soon, even with sailing. Cain't get there from here.
I like to guard the homefront from within the borders. This requires less units (a couple axes per city, plus an archer or two for mp/backup), it lets more barb units/cities pop up to give us practice/slow down approaching AI, and the units cost less to support.
That means we probably need another 4 axes from Bejing while maybe Shanghai builds one (barracks is less important for axes, as they can bone up on barb archers if necessary) as it grows out. I think the Ivory next to Bejing would make a better cottage than a camp (why are we developing that before Shanghai's food/chops?), as Shanghai could use the extra hammer more than Bejing. A cottage on Bejing's Ivory would get 3 gold right away since we're financial.
ThERat
Deity
I hope you guys are aware that we might have 3 chokes not 2. looking at a wheel map, I think they all have 3 chokes, this will be very tough.
Not necessarily, if it prevents the megastacks that can ensue from the waves coinciding at the single choke, overwhelming a garrison whose units are rarely even otherwise used.
If we can catch the initial crest at different times for each civ, we should be OK.
If we can catch the initial crest at different times for each civ, we should be OK.
Thinking about it some more ... I agree that we can build the Oracle after one more city, we don't have to wait for two more cities before we put Beijing on the wonder. I think the Ivory at Beijing should be Camped, not Cottaged, because with a Camp there the city can build the Oracle in 9 turns at size 4. We should be making 12 hpt at break-even food with the Cow, Ivory, Copper, City Center and a Forest, being Industrious gets us 162 Hammer in 9 turns. I think we get two extra trade for building the Camp anyway. We can always Cottage it over later if we want a few more trade instead of a Hammer.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
Things look Groovy.
I will get to this tonight, I hope.
I plan on growing City size nicely and going for the Oracle.
I usually skip sailing until it is a 2-3 turn research project. We really don't want much with the sea and will be landlubbers until Frigates breakout.
It is really fun to have a 6 promotion frigate sailing around.
I will get to this tonight, I hope.
I plan on growing City size nicely and going for the Oracle.
I usually skip sailing until it is a 2-3 turn research project. We really don't want much with the sea and will be landlubbers until Frigates breakout.
It is really fun to have a 6 promotion frigate sailing around.
"We can always Cottage it over later if we want a few more trade instead of a Hammer."
The problem, as you're aware, is that if we want the (significant) commerce available later, we need to work the cottage sooner. We'll need one camp to get the resource, but with no trading that's all we need. With Bejing lacking hills, it may make sense, but it does have a significant supply of plains tiles, so should be ok for hammers. I'm somewhat attempting to follow Brad's approach from this thread, which seemed superior to my typical approach.
In the very short run, we'll need to work 2 food tiles (suggesting cow, grass forests, and grass river cottages) to get up to the happy limit. I think tech will be the limiting factor on the Oracle over hammers.
Note on that thread: when I'm being an ass, that's the sound of my mind contemplating change. It's physically painful.
The problem, as you're aware, is that if we want the (significant) commerce available later, we need to work the cottage sooner. We'll need one camp to get the resource, but with no trading that's all we need. With Bejing lacking hills, it may make sense, but it does have a significant supply of plains tiles, so should be ok for hammers. I'm somewhat attempting to follow Brad's approach from this thread, which seemed superior to my typical approach.
In the very short run, we'll need to work 2 food tiles (suggesting cow, grass forests, and grass river cottages) to get up to the happy limit. I think tech will be the limiting factor on the Oracle over hammers.
Note on that thread: when I'm being an ass, that's the sound of my mind contemplating change. It's physically painful.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
Bezhukov said:Note on that thread: when I'm being an ass, that's the sound of my mind contemplating change. It's physically painful.
My mind has had to get around many painful concepts on Civ. I thought that catapults sucked in Civ3 for a long time.
It wasn't till GOMAW 27 that I realized the beauty of first strikes.
The one major area that I am working on resolving right now is the fact that I like to grow the capitol to size 5 before I pop a settler out, and that I usually get bronze working about tech #6-8.
My head can truely hurt after civ 4 now, something civ3 couldn't do. I am wondering if it is epileptic graphics, or a new level of nearly equivalent decisions.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
Ok Stuff that happened.
I micro'd for commerce, using the lake tiles rather than grassland forests.
I shifted research to head toward the Oracle.
Stonehenge was built, but not by us. Don't worry, we didn't even try.
I chopped a forest for a settler.
We built an axe, it killed a barb archer.
We declared on Huyana, who came from the upper left. He still has an archer in the region.
Judiasm was founded.
Shanghai is growing nicely now.
I don't think I played 20, but I really can't count so good right now.
After the Oracle we really need to head towards pottery.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GOMAW28_BC-1200.Civ4SavedGame
I micro'd for commerce, using the lake tiles rather than grassland forests.
I shifted research to head toward the Oracle.
Stonehenge was built, but not by us. Don't worry, we didn't even try.
I chopped a forest for a settler.
We built an axe, it killed a barb archer.
We declared on Huyana, who came from the upper left. He still has an archer in the region.
Judiasm was founded.
Shanghai is growing nicely now.
I don't think I played 20, but I really can't count so good right now.
After the Oracle we really need to head towards pottery.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/GOMAW28_BC-1200.Civ4SavedGame
