"good" undead race?

darkedone02

The Suggestor
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I was thinking about this all the time, i have been playing many mmorpg, shooters, and other types of games that are fantasy or sci-fi. Everytime i play a fantasy game, how come that undead is always evil, doing necromancey, becoming lich lords, and all other dark undead-ish things. I have not yet seen one good undead race that fights against evil instead of becoming evil. Not one yet... So i was thinking, How about we add in a "good" undead race that fights against evil and try to bring peace and prosperity to the world. That way, we can mold out the undead to become a great good undead nation then the all-evil undead they have been becoming all the time.
 
You can always play a good race/religion and build lots of death magic using mages and conjurers.
But in general, it's kinda counter-intuitive that one could do the sorts of things associated with necromancy and be good, things such as violating the resting places of the dead, using the remains of others as your servants, keeping yourself alive after you should be dead, bringing spirits back from whereever they go after death, etc. Plus, usually this kind of power comes with a price paid to evil gods.
Which isn't to say that it's unimaginable that the rules could work different in FfH. We'll see how the Sidar turn out, they seem to be something of an "undead" race, though spirits rather than zombies.
 
darkedone02 said:
I was thinking about this all the time, i have been playing many mmorpg, shooters, and other types of games that are fantasy or sci-fi. Everytime i play a fantasy game, how come that undead is always evil, doing necromancey, becoming lich lords, and all other dark undead-ish things. I have not yet seen one good undead race that fights against evil instead of becoming evil. Not one yet... So i was thinking, How about we add in a "good" undead race that fights against evil and try to bring peace and prosperity to the world. That way, we can mold out the undead to become a great good undead nation then the all-evil undead they have been becoming all the time.

I really like the idea of playing against stereotypes. Some traditional, some not, enough to keep it fresh. In FfH we have the neutral Sidar which are essentially undead (men who have traded their souls for immortality). These shades dont consider themselves undead, and they consider true undead to be abominations, but most goodly nations think they are no different.
 
the sider race is not what i have in mind at all, and not the quiet good undead race that match the one that i have in my head. When i think of good undead, i am thinking of a "heavenly" type undead that are holy spirits and ghost that have wings, they can raise the dead and give them wings and also "heavenly" enchancements to anybody. I also want to make a new term that will tell the difference of necromancy, when you are a evil soul and raise the dead to a skeleton or zombie that harms innocent people, i consider that necromancy use, however if you raise the dead and give them back there own flesh and blood, along with there kind soul and give them wings after they recover there flesh, and help out people, i call that Angelomancy. The Good undead race use those people who died and have not done very bad things to help them out, those who did do bad things, will not serve them and will not be reserrect with there own flesh and blood with a pair of white wings. Now enough of the difference of Necromancy and Angelomancy, I wish that keal can put in a good undead nation of the one that i Discribe in replace of the sider, who seems to be just a original neutal people with hardly any interesting history of it's own.
 
Nikis-Knight said:
But in general, it's kinda counter-intuitive that one could do the sorts of things associated with necromancy and be good, things such as violating the resting places of the dead, using the remains of others as your servants, keeping yourself alive after you should be dead, bringing spirits back from whereever they go after death, etc.

Yet in D&D, the clerics for good deities routinely resurrect dead people.

I don't think it's very counter-intuitive that one would save (or bring back, same thing) lives and still be good. ;)
 
I'm a bit skeptical, but it does seem like we're all about avoiding the cliche here. What would make these Angelomancers unique? What would the drool factor be? Adding a whole Civ is a big thing, with leaderheads, UUs, and interesting concepts. We want to make sure we are using the valuable time of the design team for something really good. :D

Of course, given the somewhat positive reaction of the team so far, maybe we can do something with it. Let's throw some ideas out there: what's the drool factor, what's unique, what other stuff could we add?
 
What you described is no more than spirits... or angels, if you like this word more. There is a difference between undead and spirits that willingly stay in the world to help others. The undead are bound to this world, they can´t leave, they must stay here, the spirits you´re talking about seem to willingly stay in the mundane world and help others...

Err all this is only my opinion, of course. =D
 
I like the flavor, but don't think the creation of a new civ is needed to bring this idea in the mod. It brings up a question I have about Erebus Cosmology. What happens when someone dies in Erebus? "Fire" will bring the fiery region of Hell, and in many cosmologies Hell is a place where souls are tormented, normally evil souls. Some souls are bound to earth by pacts, like the Sidar and the Undead, others go to Hell and some go to elsewhere. These souls that come from elsewhere could be this good "undead", that Darkedone02 talked about. In a sense I see the Law Bringers and the Einherjar as these high souls, which are kept by Arawn to be used as the One host when the Judgement day come, very lawful, but the concept could be expanded, probably as unique summons to some good civilization. Other example of good "undead" are the Elohin Spirit Guide.
 
I like the idea of a "good" undead civ very much.
Maybe they are fanatics devoted to cleanse the world of evil, by any means necessary.
Maybe they have some Arch-Enemy like the Infernals or the Vampires.
Their motto could be something like "The end justifies the means".
 
I don't like the idea of angils, or fanatics. I'd quite like the idea of "human" undead, if you were to summerise them in a sentance:

"we're undead, so what?"

They could come back to life simply because they found they prefured earth to the afterlife.

no idea how they would play though
 
Hi all,

I don't really like the idea of a "good" undead civ for many reasons:

- As JuliusBloodmonn says, most of the generic undeads don't have minds. They are controlled by a powerfull caster/summoner. Few are really able to live by themselves, such as Liches for exemple.
- Most of the "good" religion of the world, even in a fantasy world as the one described in FfH2, respect the deads (Both souls and bodies). So, why a "good" undead civ ? The Sidar seems more logical: men afraid by death that traded their souls for immortality. Question to Kael: who is the other trader ? (The Sidar and ? ) We don't know...
- in the past, i also had a dream of a new civ... The answer was: that is not possible to add it, not usefull, not enough slots, bla bla...


I would rather saw something special developped for the Sidar. Because of their particular backgroud, why not some UUs and/or buildings and/or flavor about undeads, souls controls, and so on ? It would be logical: they are a kind of undeads but they don't like and fight summoned and evil undeads.

The Frog
 
JuliusBloodmoon said:
The problem its that generic undead doesn´t have minds" =P

Another steryotype to challange then. If a good play machanic can be created I see no reason why that should matter.
 
Alright you scaliwags and hooligans. I'll enter this little debate because something that has been touched on, but not truly explored lies beneath this conversation and has yet to rear its ugly head.

The idea of "good" undead manipulation civs is a contradiction in terms. Let me explain.
Spoiler :

Section 1. "Control"
Necromancy, in the definition of terms is control of the undead. Mancy being control, and necro being "dead". Geomancy is the control of earth, pyromancy the control of fire, etc. In this, "control" is always present, and the "good" peoples of the world have a problem with anything that was once sentient being "controled" beyond its capasity to be self-determined. In the end, its much like slavery, and for many religions, its worse than slavery because while slaves have some freedoms, and can fight back, undead require their existance from a master. Many of you could argue that Vampires are an exception. I disagree, the argument i bring is that what DOES the controling, does not itself have to be sentient. And a vampires thirst, may control his soulless form.

Section 2. Ressurection v Necromancy.
Ressurection, in many mythos is very close to resembling necromancy, and the use of 'brining people' back from the dead is common in fantasy and religious text. The power of conquering (not using) death is the symbolism here, as the hero of cause is needed beyond his coporeals form ability to function, and so he or she is brought back to continue that purpose. The main issue here is that these 'resurrected' are not controled. Also, a fundamental rule of the universe is being broken (like necromancy) and for it to be broken there must be very good cause. In this, we already have a mechanic, the Immortal. Immortals are effectively units that die and return over and over. But they are SPECIAL, not to be confused with normal opperating procedure.

Section 3. Civilizations based on ressurection.
Civilization that would be angelic in nature would function quite nicely, except for the substanitive issue of "what is angelic" If Angels can be killed, then there is little purpose in proving they may resurrect - what diffrentiates them from other mortals? If the entire civilization can ressurect, or a great premise of the civilizations core existance relies on ressurection, then the question is begged "why do they die at all to begin with?" Ressurection is the suspension and elimination of death. In this, the core reasoning implies invincibility. No civ should be invincible.

Section 4. Angelomancers.
Ok this is prolly the thing that made me respond. Let me break down this word. Angelos. This means Messenger. Mancer. This means controller. So we have messenger-controllers. We now have a civ based on the telecom industry? Regardless of the intention behind the word (i assume it was unintentional) Angels are not CONTROLED. Especially not by mortals. Control of angels from 'lesser' beings defys the definition of what it is to be divinly angelic. Also, a host of angels is a host of messengers. And while that message can be death, it is not for a civiliztaions "purposes" that angels act. But instead the specific orders from heaven which need to be carried out. This may mean the destruction of deamonic entities, but Angels themselves should not care about the prosperity of any given civilization. Unless we are talking about divine civilzations of gods and demi-gods and while this would be a great game, its not exactly "the mortals" that create a sense of fun in FFH.

Section 5. Conclusions.
While "good" and "balanced" civilizations that use death magic do entice me as they are subject to being the antithesis of the cliche. I am wont to remind all of us that the "good" necromancer is often the exception, and he or she often (in story) accepts their damnation as a method to save others. The tragic hero is a compelling one. But an entire civilization devoted to the uses of death magic cannot be said to be using the most 'noble' of methods to achieve its ends. Death is not evil. Death is not in any way moral. It is the actions of those and their attitudes tward death that become evil or good. Is the attitude one of sanctity, reverance, and respect? Or is the attitude one of callus pragmatism? One of utilitarian greed? One of enmaddened hubris? It is not that things are brought back from the dead that is problematic, it is the reason for wanting to do so. And if it is for greed, or for self-interest...then it is most likely evil. If it is a gift....or if it is for salvation, then it is something quite other. Ressurections are rare...for this reason. If a "dead-using" civ wants to be good it can pursue "good" religion. But it will (and should) conflict with the premises of being good. I like the Sidar concept.......very neutral, very balanced...and thier view of death does not indicate any moral trappings......which means its neither good, nor bad. Death can be bad, and death can be amoral. But the use of death magic cannot be construed as "good."


Thank you for your time if you read my symposium there. Its not that I want stereotypes, but instead consistency in idea, form and comprehension of design.

-Qes
 
Chandrasekhar said:
Very nice writeup. :goodjob:

Thanks. But be wary not to encourage me, lest these forums be filled with 20-page theoretical and philosophical thesies.
-Qes
 
Bwahaha... that's exactly what I want. For it is prophesized that when there are 20-page theoretical/philosophical/kick-your-assical posts on every thread on the forum, a new age of twilight will come over the world, the streets will run with the blood of the innocent, and I will be reborn, as the...

...wait...

whoops, wrong board. I'm off to go bug the SevoMod people, wish me luck.
 
Chandrasekhar said:
Bwahaha... that's exactly what I want. For it is prophesized that when there are 20-page theoretical/philosophical/kick-your-assical posts on every thread on the forum, a new age of twilight will come over the world, the streets will run with the blood of the innocent, and I will be reborn, as the...

...wait...

whoops, wrong board. I'm off to go bug the SevoMod people, wish me luck.

lol, much luck
-Qes
 
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