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[Sodapop]

@Sodapop

Seems very odd that you correct me by almost quoting me



And... it's absolutely abysmal

Woops, skipped that part

Lack of widgets are a key problem. You want them hardware accelerated (at the lowest possible level) with the minimal number of messages between application and hardware. X11 forces the use of additional layers, to support widgets, which multiplies (many times) the number of messages passed from high-level applications to low-level system software specifically because it does not support it's own widgets.

I send you back to the mozilla example. They're as fast as any other apps, and they're drawn through XUL.

So you want a long list of alternative Operating Systems, huh? Calling my bluff are you? Well... I made a list when brainstorming, at about the time I happened to be designing a display system and there were more than fifty alternatives!

However, you may be in luck... because I cannot find the file, and if you check back in this very forum you will see that one of my hard drives blew up! The details might be on there. Seriously

But as you won't actually be interested in the full list anyway, one of the better Open Source projects is the fork of AtheOS called Syllable. There are many other good solutions such as two forks of BeOS, which are Zeta, and Haiku. Hurd is the practically complete system ready to replace Linux as the GNU representative, and there's even a 32 bit version of DOS, and an Open Source rendition of Microsoft Windows NT! (I forgot the name of that one) ... I could go on for hours and easilly pass 50.

Cause obviously there are lots of games made for syllable, and open-source display-drivers. You're dissing Linux because of those, but it's alright for Syllable? Cause if you exclude games, I'd say GNOME and KDE are still ahead, but that might be a question of preference and feelings. But I must admit they made nice progress. BeOS, read previous post. Oh, and the Hurd, the "it will be ready soon" where soon means about 50 years (and it uses X btw). The open source Windows NT is called ReactOS, and if you call that a desktop OS, well... It's mostly based on code from Wine, so that says it all if you ask me. And yes, I know there could be hours of other OS, but for desktop use? I maintain that on x86, the only working alternative for a desktop (and even a few games) is a Linux distro (unless you really know what you're doing).

Anyway, enough threadjacking for me.

 

[MarineCorps]

Anyway, enough threadjacking for me.

Actually I don't mind it.

 

[stormbind]

I send you back to the mozilla example. They're as fast as any other apps, and they're drawn through XUL.

Browser content is extremely simple, and it's not easy to benchmark. However, I did make a re-write script that thrashed browser rendering by forcing re-rendering in quick succession..

Benchmark: MSIE ran it in < 1s. FireFox took more than a minute!!

Afaik, X.org is a fork of Xfree86 so I wouldn't expect any performance difference, at least not for a long while. Even if it is a little quicker, it won't cut down on the number of messages between Application and Destination.

App -> Kernel -> Environment -> Kernel -> X11 -> Kernel -> X11 -> Kernel -> Display Driver

I'm not sure if the above is accurate for Linux, because message systems vary.. but each message goes through memory, and if X11 and Environment were the same entity, then the number of messages would be greatly reduced.

Cause obviously there are lots of games made for syllable, and open-source display-drivers. You're dissing Linux because of those, but it's alright for Syllable?

It's actually X11 is that I hate, not Linux, and not Wine either

Syllable (for example) emphasises desktop acceleration and is a very young OS. I'm not saying it's better than Windows XP for home use. I'm saying it has a better design concept than Linux/X.

Btw, Hurd is useable right now. Ok, no more threadjacking. My appologies, Google fans

 

[Padma]

Well, the threadstarter said he didn't mind the threadjack, and it *is* a learning experience.

I agree that X11 requires more messages between the layers, but on modern systems, that is not a problem. Indeed, by separating the layers more distinctly, many would say a *better* system is possible. Not faster, but better. One reason is that you have a much broader choice of desktops. KDE and Gnome are the two most widely used, but there are certainly others. Not to mention, some Window Managers are not complete desktop environments the way KDE and Gnome are, so are much smaller and faster. Check out this page for a sample list of window managers available under X.

As far as graphic card drivers, sure, the best ones are proprietary. So what? Only the extreme fanatics insist on everything in Linux being available in open source form. NVidia and ATI, the two largest graphics card suppliers, provide excellent binary drivers that can be installed. Then again, unless you really need cutting edge 3D graphics, the open source drivers that have been developed are also very good. Certainly sufficient for any 2D/Office apps. Most games, too.

I generally have to agree with SodaPop, here. He may be just a kid (), but he has that fire in his belly about computers that I used to have. I've gotten old, and now want a system that just works. So I run Mandrake 10.0 Official Edition (free). I have fewer problems with it than I ever had with MS Windows. The only thing I miss is a *few* of the games I used to play. The important ones (like Civ3) I can still play via Cedega.

Marine Corps: If you want to a *free* (there are still shipping charges - I'm not doing it out of the goodness of my heart ) copy of Mandrake 10.0, I can ship you the set of 3 install CDs. PM me for details.

 

[Comraddict]

my $.02.
Linux has improved over the years, and is still improving at great rate.
Xorg is great thing, I can tell you- with appropriate drivers it runs well if not better than windows GUI.

However- linux is much more bloated. It is a fact- I'm running 60 processes on linux after installation, when on windows I have about 20.

On speed- windows is much more optimized, standardized and in best case, linux will run up to windows speed. after all - it is running on same intel ix86 architecture.

On mess- linux is indeed bad organized mess. take example of installed programs. how to uninstall them? in what directory they residue?
windows had 3 main directories: documents and settings, windows, and program files. With little knowledge you know what are they for. But on linux you have 3-4 letter mess all over the partition, and some are repeating.

 

[MarineCorps]

Well, the threadstarter said he didn't mind the threadjack, and it *is* a learning experience.

Indeed!

So I run Mandrake 10.0 Official Edition (free). I have fewer problems with it than I ever had with MS Windows.

That shouldn't be hard to do with my computer since the OS seems to be falling apart.

The only thing I miss is a *few* of the games I used to play. The important ones (like Civ3) I can still play via Cedega.

Good enough for me. Thats all I do with my computer.

Marine Corps: If you want to a *free* (there are still shipping charges - I'm not doing it out of the goodness of my heart ) copy of Mandrake 10.0, I can ship you the set of 3 install CDs. PM me for details.

Done and Done!

 

[Chairman Meow]

However- linux is much more bloated. It is a fact- I'm running 60 processes on linux after installation, when on windows I have about 20.

Keep in mind that in Windows, many processes hide behind the svchost process (that's why if svchost gets killed, the computer shuts down), so what's shown in Task Manager may not actually represent all of what's going on. Also, the number of processes that run by default in Linux depend on what distribution you're using. A more bloated distribution like Mandrake will have more processes running by default than a slimmer distribution like Slackware. Overall, the more user-friendly distributions of Linux are more bloated than Windows, but not by all that much.

On mess- linux is indeed bad organized mess. take example of installed programs. how to uninstall them? in what directory they residue?
windows had 3 main directories: documents and settings, windows, and program files. With little knowledge you know what are they for. But on linux you have 3-4 letter mess all over the partition, and some are repeating.

It's true that in many distributions of Linux, uninstalling programs can be a mess. Some of them do provide easier ways of uninstalling software. For example, in Mandrake, there is a "Remove Software" program, where you can select the programs you want to uninstall, and it will uninstall them.
As for the directory structure, it can be very difficult to understand at first, and takes a lot of getting used to, but after a while, you get used to the settings being in /etc, the programs being in /usr/bin, the CD drive bring in /cdrom or /mnt/cdrom, and so on. I would agree, however, that this may be one area that Linux needs to improve upon. The short directory names came from the use of the command line in Linux: it's easier to type /etc than to type /Settings. Since there are now pretty good graphical environments for Linux, it may be time to retire some of that, although I don't really see that happening.

 

[Padma]

I will concede that KDE, on a standard Mandrake (or any other major disto) build, is roughly as bloated as Windows. Because it tries to be *friendly* to users coming from the Windows world. Chairman Meow pointed out the fallacy behind Win's Task Manager - there are many processes going on that aren't really showing up there. Gnome is perhaps not quite so bloated, but it, too, does a lot to make life easier for the user, which adds to the "bloat".

But that's part of the beauty of Linux! KDE is too bloated for your taste? Try WindowMaker, or FVWM, or AfterStep, or FluxBox, etc. These are much "lighter-weight" window managers. They don't provide as much "help" to the user as a full blown desktop environment, but they are faster in return.

As for directory structures, Linux is certainly no worse than Windows. Everything for a user is found in their "Home" directory, e.g. "/home/padma". This corresponds roughly to the "documents and settings" folder in Windows. Instead of a "windows" directory, the rest of the system belongs to the OS. That means the user can't screw up his system, just his own area! (Yes, the user can switch to superuser mode, and screw with things, but if he doesn't know the root password, he is confined to his own little sandbox. *MUCH* safer! )

As far as "where are programs installed?" and "how do I remove them?", every major distro (particularly those designed with noobs in mind ) has tools, both GUI and command line, for handling this. For some distros, like Red Hat, and Mandrake, this tool is "rpm". For Gentoo, it is "emerge". For others it is "apt-get". There are other package management tools, as well. The point is, you use the tools provided. BTW, programs that use the InstallShield wizard usually have an "Uninstall program" item added to the menu as well.

 

[Comraddict]

Gnome is perhaps not quite so bloated, but it, too, does a lot to make life easier for the user, which adds to the "bloat".

With Gnome, I get 72 running processes. With KDE 60-something.

Padma, be realistic. Uninstalling linux software is like uninstalling spyware on windows. You don't install them always thru rpm. Sometimes source code is used.

 

[stormbind]

Noting that this would exclude a desktop environment and is therefore not comparible to Windows XP: What are the system requirements for the current version of Xfree86 or X.org?

I say the increased number of messages make more difference today. In 1995, X Windows seemed fast, but in 2004 it's a resource hog. As applications become more complex, the number of messages increases exponentially. Every button, checkbox, menu effect, etc. adds several new messages!

Having an intergrated solution such as WinNT, Haiku, or Syllable does not reduce choice. There are plenty of desktops for Windows, and you can install alternative display systems if you want to. You can install Xfree86 (with cygwin) on Windows; you would need to be insane, but you can do it.

 

[Padma]

Padma, be realistic. Uninstalling linux software is like uninstalling spyware on windows. You don't install them always thru rpm. Sometimes source code is used.

I install almost everything through rpm. The few things I install from source, I *know* where I put it. (/usr/local/bin is usally a good place. )

And even if I didn't know where I put it, how hard is it to type "which <program>" in a terminal? That tells you where to find it.

@stormbind: All I can say is, from empirical evidence (i.e., my own experience), my Mandrake/KDE system is faster and more stable than my old Win2000Pro was. I admit that it may not actually *be* faster, but the perception is there, and in software, perception of speed is what matters.