GOTM 113 (E3FT) Spoiler

Tech cost at AD 1: 572. Science production at 50%: 90.

Tech cost at AD 500: 832. Science production at 50%: 203.

Tech cost at AD 1000: 1456. Science production at 50%: 890.

I also made a chart illustrating my science, tax and luxury rates until AD 1000.
 

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My early game planning was all wrong, since I was using an earth map with the wrong seed. But with all the grass, I decided to go with good old ICS + tribute, and to delay big trade. That part seemed to work out OK.

-2450 monarchy
-1400 HG
-925 MPE (only got 1 quick tech)
-600? (approx) Pyr
-300 LH, Romans build Col.
-225 Repub
-200 1st van, 168g
-75 Mike's

1 AD: 50 cities, 5 WoWs, Republic, 6 vans to S.A. (bonuses = 168g to 364g), 23 adv (@univ). 8 settlers, 10 triremes, 15 vans. Lots of roads. At peace with all AI.

Approx 30 cities in or near India [Arabia to central China]
Approx 10 on Indonesian islands or Australia [for overseas trade]
Approx 10 in Africa [trying to build roads + ports to S.A.]

Have a size 8 city at (110, 64) with marketplace, which may become an SSC eventually. But I'll have to destroy two other Indian cities, one on silk, if it is to grow to full size.

@haleewud: I've seen respawns like yours, but they are a bit unusual. Most of the time (80%?) the AI just gets a settler and a phalanx or two. But sometimes they get a fairly advanced city (or two!) with irrigation, lots of advances, etc.
 
I just finished with science at 80%. Here is my status at the end of turn before 3FT discoveries:

Status at +1xx0
Population: 39.2M; Cities: 69; Trade routes: 111D40F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 71; Cost per turn: 112; Total advances: 77+3FT; Production: 429MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Leo, Magellan, Bach, Newton, Adam Smith, Darwin, Cure, SETI
Units: 41 Engineers (1 none), 1 Pikemen, 16 Riflemen, 3 Cavalry, 7 Transports, 4 Diplomats, 6 Caravans
Footprint: 24 cities in south tier of Asia from Jerusalem to China. 2 cities in Indonesia; 2 in Caucasia, 7 in Australia, 3 in New Zealand, 13 in mainland Europe, 3 in central Asia, 4 in British isles, 2 in Africa, Manila, Hawaii, 1 in Scandinavia, Iceland, Cuba, Nicaragua, Colombia, and 2 in North America.
Current Tech cost: 1976. Total beaker output at 50% science: 2700

In retrospect, I made too many cities in mid and late game. Most of my larger cities had a library, but only two cities had universities and only a handful had superhighways. I should have calculated how many cities at full strength (library, university, superhighways, maxed out population) I need and stopped at that. Only some of my older cities maxed out their population. Others stopped at 12. I also did not make enough vans in late game and that cost me at least one turn. My engineers were too busy making railroads and did not build a single farmland. I should have made farmland around my science city. I think if I replay this game I can shave at least a dozen turns, but not enough to finish before +1000.
 
[an extra moment at work to post]: I'm at about 500AD now, thinking I can't finish by my target date of 800AD, but I shouldn't be far off. IIRC I have approx 42 techs and am on the verge of getting 2a/t; I did it once already, but had to use a lot of scientists and couldn't celebrate, lost food, probably couldn't sustain it.

My game seems similar to Garfield's, for example, but I have way more cities, maybe 70-80. This is good for beakers, and Big Trade is easy now, but it may be causing some unhappiness. Not sure about that, but celebration seems harder than it should be, and most of my cities are stuck around size 5 to 7. So, I may need JSB or CfC soon to break free.

I'm wondering if anyone has analyzed what matters most in this gotm. For example, I'm thinking that it takes a long time to get Trade rolling (few overseas options for a while), but then it becomes very easy. So, slowly colonizing North America or Europe now seems unnecessary, unless you just need the land. Getting minor trade going ASAP seems important. Getting an SSC going early and getting 1a/t ASAP seems important. Other players suggest you don't need many cities, but I think they make everything else easier and they don't cost much in extra time or resources. This game seems to be mainly about growth, pretty much like traditional EC and EL games.

IIRC someone guessed that having lots of trade routes might be more important in this game than usual. Maybe ... my game doesn't prove or disprove that. I am not trying to create lots of routes, but several of my cities have 3 routes now, and they have celebrated to larger sizes than the others. But my smaller cities have been useful too, in making settlers, suppporting them, making vans for WOWs ... so, in my opinion, creating 3 routes per city is not critical to the overall result, and large trade bonuses still matter more.
 
1AD recap: 49 cities, republic, 5WoW, 6v
260: Cope's in the SSC, Basra [on river, near the gold]
340: Shakes, and Inv
380: Demo
400: INC
420: Leo's
440: Magnm
480: 1st double-advance [almost the first in all of my games]
500: Corpn
560: CfC
640: DV
700: SETI
760: 1st 3adv/t, and JSB
780 to 800: 3FT/turn. Greeks sneak attack and take 2 undefended Mongol cities, but this doesn't prevent the 3FT.

Stats in 800AD: 81-2= 79 cities, Science at 80% gives 4407b = 2.2 adv/t. 13WoWs, 58 libs, 14univ, 30aq, 46har, cost = 232g/t [no AdamS], 28 transports, 24vans [but stopped building them near the end... averaged about 50 usually], no pollution.

Finishing in 800AD [my target date] was pretty much a coincidence. The game conditions were very new, so it was hard to plan accurately. But I got to Recycling, the last tech before FTs, at almost the same time that 3adv/t became possible, which was one of my main goals. Assuming this game may be considered a success, it seems to confirm that civ2 is about growth, mainly through ICS and/or Big Trade [eg big bonuses asap]. It was hard to get Big Trade going on this map before about 200AD and I never built the vast RR network I wanted. But eventually, with enough transports/etc, trade with the Romans paid off big and the rest seemed pretty easy.

Thanks to Ali for the game.
 
This is unbelievable. I did not think finish time before +1000 is possible. I doubt anyone else got even close. I doubt on a replay I can do better than +1000. You are truly a master player Peaster.
 
Thanks Ali. I suspect there were actually few differences between my game and others; I was worse at map analysis, but probably had positives in ICSing, many early boats + LH.

A curious feature of this gotm [maybe of good EL too] was the tech speed near the end. For example, there was not enough time in my game to build Adam Smith and have it pay off. Same for refrigeration and Magellan IMO [less sure of these]. I'm even wondering about RRs, which were fast and cheap, but eng support delayed growth, and they might've been replaceable by transports.

I probably should've built JSB earlier, for cele-growth, but delayed WC-Feud, hoping the AI would research those for me. Also, I wasn't sure if it justified the off-path tech, Theo.
 
What I find really curious is that everyone (who has posted) had 23 techs at AD1. In my case, I lowered science for that portion of the game because there were no useful techs that could be researched quickly, so I was content to let caravans do the work once they reached the romans, and use the money for growth in the meantime.

I probably should've built JSB earlier, for cele-growth, but delayed WC-Feud, hoping the AI would research those for me. Also, I wasn't sure if it justified the off-path tech, Theo.

I think theology is justified as an offpath, since it also boosts cathedral effectiveness in addition to giving you the ability to build Bach's. I ended up building Bach's because I was suffering too much unhappiness from triremes.
 
What I find really curious is that everyone (who has posted) had 23 techs at AD1. In my case, I lowered science for that portion of the game because there were no useful techs that could be researched quickly, so I was content to let caravans do the work once they reached the romans, and use the money for growth in the meantime.
I used a similar plan, and don't have major regrets, but I do have some doubts. I might've shaved off a few turns by getting the early techs faster, at some cost in growth. My actual growth rate seemed a slight overkill, especially after big trade got moving.

I think theology is justified as an offpath, since it also boosts cathedral effectiveness in addition to giving you the ability to build Bach's. I ended up building Bach's because I was suffering too much unhappiness from triremes.

Agreed. And I assume it also boosts Mike's. I had a lot of triremes, as usual, which didn't cause too much unhappiness, since each port supported only one boat. But to celebrate under Demo, I had to scramble for Leo's+Magnetism asap. And I think my civ wouldv'e grown faster/bigger with a much earlier JSB.

My actual priority was the SETI Wonder. It didn't allow 3a/t immediately, but did allow me to lower science from about 70 to 40, which helped grease the machine while getting WC thru Theo. JSB and SETI are both very nice, and I'm not sure which should have priority in that context. But once you have Feudalism, I agree it makes sense to go for Theo/JSB asap.

Also, superhighways and airports compete with Theo for attention, and make a perfect rule of thumb on tech order difficult, for now. Your post raises some fairly subtle questions, which may have to wait for further testing by EL or E3FT devotees [if these species are not extinct!].
 
I figure I might as well reveal my end date now, along with my post AD 1000 log. Games will be due soon, and Peaster has given his date already.

AD 1080: Build a granary in my SSC and start building it up using double growth. My handling of my SSC was a huge boondoggle that turned out to be entirely superfluous to my science needs.

AD 1120: Complete The Laser, which is the last pre-chivalry, pre-flight on-path tech, and trade for Chivalry (I really liked the 20s horseman).

AD 1240: Build SETI, and discover Flight and Radio in this turn. SSC builds Shakespeare's Theatre.

AD 1260: Advanced Flight, Rocketry, Space Flight.

AD 1280: SSC builds Isaac Newton's. Plastics, Superconductor, Fusion Power.

AD 1300: Future Technologies 1, 2, and 3.

I think that if I had built Marco's I might have cut a few turns off my game. I would have known exactly were the Roman's were and could have made sure to have had enough triremes in the Pacific to set up a shipchain sooner, and therefore started rapid tech progression sooner. As I mentioned in the "spoiler" response to Ali, I could have further reduced time by attempting to get two techs/turn sooner and by celebrating WLTPD in cities by building them up to size 3 rather than wait for them to grow naturally.
 

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I figure I might as well reveal my end date now, along with my post AD 1000 log. Games will be due soon, and Peaster has given his date already.
IMO telling the date gives valuable info to "the competition", but AFAIK the only player left is Magic, who may not actually play this one. He knows my date anyway, since I submitted my game to him. I assume [unless someone says otherwise] that knowing the date didn't hurt anyone's fun, but if it did I apologize.

AD 1080: Build a granary in my SSC and start building it up using double growth. My handling of my SSC was a huge boondoggle that turned out to be entirely superfluous to my science needs.
I guess you are criticizing your handling of the SSC, rather than the idea of an SSC [?]. My own opinion of SSCs has risen from "non-essential" to "valuable, but less important than growth".

AD 1120: Complete The Laser, which is the last pre-chivalry, pre-flight on-path tech, and trade for Chivalry (I really liked the 20s horseman).

AD 1240: Build SETI, and discover Flight and Radio in this turn. SSC builds Shakespeare's Theatre.
This tech order makes sense, and you were lucky [and/or smart] to trade for Chivalry. SETI is a good priority. I'm a little surprised you delayed INC so long though.
AD 1260: Advanced Flight, Rocketry, Space Flight.

AD 1280: SSC builds Isaac Newton's. Plastics, Superconductor, Fusion Power.

AD 1300: Future Technologies 1, 2, and 3.

I think that if I had built Marco's I might have cut a few turns off my game. I would have known exactly were the Roman's were and could have made sure to have had enough triremes in the Pacific to set up a shipchain sooner, and therefore started rapid tech progression sooner. As I mentioned in the "spoiler" response to Ali, I could have further reduced time by attempting to get two techs/turn sooner and by celebrating WLTPD in cities by building them up to size 3 rather than wait for them to grow naturally.

Not sure about Marco - I felt I got little from it in this game, since I already knew most AI locations [from contact, or from nearest city info], and I didn't get many techs from it. Also, I couldn't start trading with Rome until long after Marco. I think a very-delayed Marco [after HG, LH, Pyr...] might be best here.

I never used the Pacific, partly because my Romans were on the east coast of S.A., and partly because I committed pretty early to going thru Africa. Not sure which route is best. Ali's idea of using the poles [rather than LH] is interesting, but I prefer LOTS of early boats, and think LH is better, at least in my case.

I agree with your last comment. I think early Pyramids make sense here, since you can expect a lot of cities eventually, which will need to be size 3, for Repu-growth and then Big Trade [especially your SSC... I'm surprised to see your 1080AD SSC granary]. Likewise, fairly-early happiness WoWs like HG, Mikes, ST, CfC or JSB.

In hindsight, I think the priorities in this gotm should be growth [already discussed] and getting to 1a/t , then to 2a/t asap. The trade-offs between these aren't quite clear to me; we may need more experience with this kind of game, to get all the priorities straight. Zenon made a useful comment in an EL game, roughly: "You want to get Demo, and Nav/Inv, and a loaded SSC at about the same time [and after Mike's]." Loaded means Univ, Cope's, INC, ST, and probably a bank+Col. I think his idea was that this allows 1adv/turn [despite the Nav/Inv trade penalty] mainly through a high science rate and a strong SSC. But high science means low lux, and no cele-growth, at least for a while, so you better grow before the penalty. He's talking about the 1AD era, roughly, though that'd depend on the map. I think his idea applies pretty well here, and we may need more of that kind of thinking, about how to get 2a/t asap, etc.
 
I guess you are criticizing your handling of the SSC, rather than the idea of an SSC [?]. My own opinion of SSCs has risen from "non-essential" to "valuable, but less important than growth".

Yes, I was criticizing my own handling of the SSC. The only time I remember trying for 1 tech per turn from city science was in a GOTM that I never finished (it was the one where the player started off in a desert); I failed miserably at the goal (just as I was ready to achieve it, I discovered flight, which killed the Colossus and with it a great portion of my trade bonuses), so my underlying impression was that achieving 2 techs per turn would take a considerable amount of building after finishing the tech tree, and so I wasn't concerned about growing my SSC during the game.

This tech order makes sense, and you were lucky [and/or smart] to trade for Chivalry. SETI is a good priority.

I should have gone for Chivalry right after automobile (since superhighway trade brought in enough money to compensate for the loss of the 20s unit). I could have got to computers and SETI sooner, and got a few more techs at 2/turn. I was directing AI research as much as I could this game, which was how I was able to trade for Chivalry.

Not sure about Marco - I felt I got little from it in this game, since I already knew most AI locations [from contact, or from nearest city info], and I didn't get many techs from it. Also, I couldn't start trading with Rome until long after Marco. I think a very-delayed Marco [after HG, LH, Pyr...] might be best here.

I don't think I would have gotten too much in technologies or "early goals" from Marco's, but had I done so I could probably have established my shipchain 5-10 turns earlier if I had known exactly how many boats I needed and where to send them. I was expecting to find someone in North America, so I planned a direct pacific crossing and a canal in Central America so I could have easy access to almost anywhere in North America.

I agree with your last comment. I think early Pyramids make sense here, since you can expect a lot of cities eventually, which will need to be size 3, for Repu-growth and then Big Trade [especially your SSC... I'm surprised to see your 1080AD SSC granary]. Likewise, fairly-early happiness WoWs like HG, Mikes, ST, CfC or JSB.

I wouldn't go for Pyramids. They don't help grow to size 2, and are pointless if you plan to build settlers into cities in order to get them to celebrate. If you want to get cities to celebrate, you might as well build in a settler once the city reaches size 2, or build 2 settlers in right away.

n hindsight, I think the priorities in this gotm should be growth [already discussed] and getting to 1a/t , then to 2a/t asap. The trade-offs between these aren't quite clear to me; we may need more experience with this kind of game, to get all the priorities straight.

I would say that if you can get 1t/turn with city science that you should do so; when you can't, focus on growth as much as possible until you can again. This should bring automobile ASAP, after which you can use the superhighway bonuses to fund the growth needed to get to 2t/turn with city science.
 
I should have gone for Chivalry right after automobile (since superhighway trade brought in enough money to compensate for the loss of the 20s unit). I could have got to computers and SETI sooner, and got a few more techs at 2/turn. I was directing AI research as much as I could this game, which was how I was able to trade for Chivalry.
I don't have the tech tree handy, but assume you say this because Chivalry-Tactics is on the path to Computers. ... I forget.

I don't think I would have gotten too much in technologies or "early goals" from Marco's, but had I done so I could probably have established my shipchain 5-10 turns earlier if I had known exactly how many boats I needed and where to send them. I was expecting to find someone in North America, so I planned a direct pacific crossing and a canal in Central America so I could have easy access to almost anywhere in North America.
I see. Did you have LH ? With that and one trireme, you could [probably] get nearest city info and locate the Romans. And with a dip on board, could also establish an embassy, if needed. This would be slower than Marco, but having LH would pay off for a long time. This is really just an idea; I usually rely on an early Marco to get map info, but I speculate that LH deserves higher priority in this gotm.

I wouldn't go for Pyramids. They don't help grow to size 2, and are pointless if you plan to build settlers into cities in order to get them to celebrate. If you want to get cities to celebrate, you might as well build in a settler once the city reaches size 2, or build 2 settlers in right away.

I guess "build in a settler' means the settler joins a size 2 city to make it size 3 ? I have experimented with this idea, which seems great, but there are practical issues, of timing the join, etc. Arguably, Pyramids cost about the same as 3 settlers [this depends on the value of food], and they halve the time that cities spend at size 2. IMO they are a better deal if you have more than about 6 cities on the rise, and I usually have much more than that. Also, they are much easier to manage [no planning required].


I would say that if you can get 1t/turn with city science that you should do so; when you can't, focus on growth as much as possible until you can again. This should bring automobile ASAP, after which you can use the superhighway bonuses to fund the growth needed to get to 2t/turn with city science.

In my game, I relied more on trade to get my first 1a/t's. But I was a little too obsessed with long-term growth, and probably missed a chance to start the 1a earlier.
 
As Prof. Garfield did earlier it is time for me to also post the final portion of my log and reveal my end date:

+1020 Atomic Theory -> Railroad. Deliveries to Romans for 200, 356.
+1040 Paris and Adelaide founded.
+1060 Volgagrad, Florida, and Cuba founded.
+1080 Railroad -> Industrialization. Deliveries to Romans for 310; Chinese 60; domestic 271.
+1100 Chinese build Oracle. Industrialization -> Steel. Domestic deliveries for 82, 94.
+1120 Babylonians deliver to Nishapur. First pollution appears near Nishapur. Deliveries to Romans for 88; Babylonians 32; Chinese 128; domestic 38, 67.
+1140 Steel -> Machine Tools. Deliveries to Babylonians for 108; domestic 52, 95. Canberra founded.
+1160 Deliveries to Romans for 216; domestic 132.
+1180 Machine Tools -> Economics. Nice and Darwin founded. Deliveries to Romans for 296; Babylonians 101; domestic 336, 260. Chinese Xinjian subverted for 2x420 for Econ. Got 51g, Economics, a soldier, and a granary.
+1200 -> Corporation -> Genetic Engineering. Manchester founded. Domestic deliveries for 128, 338, 240, 210
+1220 Genetic Engineering -> Refining. Cure for Cancer built. Domestic deliveries for 390, 260, 84, 354. German Heidelburg subverted for 2x680. Got 27g, Theology, and a soldier.
+1240 Refining -> Combustion. Newton built. Deliveries to Romans for 988; domestic 120. Khazar and Iceland founded.
+1260 Combustion -> Automobile. Adam Smith built. Nicaragua founded. Domestic deliveries for 350, 272, 156, 140.
+1280 Automobile -> Mass Production -> Electronics. Domestic deliveries for 44, 114, 75, 247, 108, 97, 258. Delivery to Greeks for 96. Brussels and Washington founded.
+1300 Electronics -> Miniaturization. Domestic deliveries for 110, 96, 416. Brisbane founded.
+1320 Miniaturization -> Computers. Domestic deliveries for 236, 42; to Romans for 564, 540, 270. Copenhagen founded. Greek Corinth subverted for 2x790. Got 164g, barracks, and 2 soldiers.
+1340 Computers -> Nuclear Fission -> Nuclear Power. Bach built. Domestic deliveries for 192. Dundee and Colombia founded.
+1360 Germans deliver to Nishapur. SETI built. Nuclear Power -> Recycling. Domestic deliveries for 156; to Romans for 498, 180; to Germans for 328. Oslo founded.
+1380 Recycling -> Laser -> Flight. Warsaw founded. Domestic deliveries for 26, 82, 386.
+1400 Flight -> Radio. Domestic deliveries for 202, 60; to Chinese for 100; to Greeks for 156. Moscow founded.
+1420 Radio -> Advanced Flight -> Rocketry. Domestic deliveries for 138, 248, 202, 204; to Romans for 90, 240; to Greeks for 64. Shetland founded.
+1440 Darwin built. Rocketry -> Space Flight -> Plastics -> Superconductor -> Fusion Power. Domestic deliveries for 103, 112. Sold a bunch of aqueducts and sewers in preparation for ending the game.
+1460 Fusion Power -> Future Tech 1. Domestic deliveries for 200, 252, 15, 35, 23, 75, 84. T0L2S8
+1480 Chinese steal Plastics. Future Tech 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4

Status at +1460
Population: 39.2M; Cities: 69; Trade routes: 111D40F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 71; Cost per turn: 112; Total advances: 77+3FT; Production: 429MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Leo, Magellan, Bach, Newton, Adam Smith, Darwin, Cure, SETI
Units: 41 Engineers (1 none), 1 Pikemen, 16 Riflemen, 3 Cavalry, 7 Transports, 4 Diplomats, 6 Caravans
Footprint: 24 cities in south tier of Asia from Jerusalem to China. 2 cities in Indonesia; 2 in Caucasia, 7 in Australia, 3 in New Zealand, 13 in mainland Europe, 3 in central Asia, 4 in British isles, 2 in Africa, Manila, Hawaii, 1 in Scandinavia, Iceland, Cuba, Nicaragua, Colombia, and 2 in North America.
Current Tech cost: 1976. Total beaker output at 50% science: 2700
 
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