Magic, is it allowed to build a trireme just to push the black back and reveal ocean tiles within the boundaries of my cities? Such a trireme would never leave the home island just skirt its perimeter.
Gotm 117
- Thread starter Magic_gorter
- Start date
No it's not allowed. As mentioned in the rules you may start building it earlier but may not be finished before all tiles are irrigated.
I used to be that way too. Then I realized that a second city is far more valuable than a none settler. Think about it this way: a city site automatically gets the benefit of irrigation and a road. That is worth 7 turns of a settler. Furthermore, the second city can produce a settler. After this point your only advantage with the None settler is the improvements it has already done and the 1-2 foods per turn saving. The latter is certainly not comparable to the output of a city. It is not hard to realize that the extra advantages of the city will soon more than make up for whatever work the None settler has been doing meanwhile.
Nowadays I build a second city as soon as all of the following happen:
1. I know where to place the second city
2. When employing the size-1 tactic, I am done producing a settler in my first city.
3. My none settler has built any needed land improvements for my first city that can be used by its first 2 citizens. This may be nothing if the city has access to specials like Whale, Fish, Peat, Pheasant, and the like which cannot be improved.
This game is of course different because of the special rule.
Hello Ali, I think it is not as easy to decide what to do with a second settler.
In a "normal" game the new settlers can build cities faster, if they can walk along roads.
In this game you have the peat special and a quick change to monarchy, which makes it interesting to keep the settler for irrigation and roads.
In a "normal" game the new settlers can build cities faster, if they can walk along roads.
In this game you have the peat special and a quick change to monarchy, which makes it interesting to keep the settler for irrigation and roads.
Ali has it right; a new city can almost always out-produce a settler working on roads/etc. In fact, the city can eventually produce several settlers ! [yes, delay is a factor to consider, but the idea is still valid].
I have debated the size-one trick with Grigor, and agree that it is usually correct when you start with only one settler. With two, I think it is usually a toss-up, though I usually choose not to do it then [Grigor does it, and it seems Ali does it]. Agree with Racoon that in this gotm, a key factor is the peat, which should make the trick extra-effective. I don't see how the special rules or the early monarchy make much difference; the main issue until about -2500 will probably be the number of decent cities [as usual].
In my opinion, a good start in this game will be 5 cities and 1-2 settlers by about 2500BC. Most roads + irrigation + early science should come after that, and a 6th city as soon as enough grass is ready.
I haven't thought much yet about the timing of the first WoWs. I guess that
most of us will build Marco before we can get off the island. But there may be a shield shortage to slow down van production. I'm already looking for ways to build on the non-shielded grass. Interesting.
I have debated the size-one trick with Grigor, and agree that it is usually correct when you start with only one settler. With two, I think it is usually a toss-up, though I usually choose not to do it then [Grigor does it, and it seems Ali does it]. Agree with Racoon that in this gotm, a key factor is the peat, which should make the trick extra-effective. I don't see how the special rules or the early monarchy make much difference; the main issue until about -2500 will probably be the number of decent cities [as usual].
In my opinion, a good start in this game will be 5 cities and 1-2 settlers by about 2500BC. Most roads + irrigation + early science should come after that, and a 6th city as soon as enough grass is ready.
I haven't thought much yet about the timing of the first WoWs. I guess that
most of us will build Marco before we can get off the island. But there may be a shield shortage to slow down van production. I'm already looking for ways to build on the non-shielded grass. Interesting.
They make a big difference. You cannot get off the island before a lot of transformation/irrigation is done. This is a major restriction and obviously the sooner you get over it the better off you are. Needless to say keeping the settler allows you to accomplish this sooner than if you build a second city with it.
Monarchy also makes a difference. Prior to monarchy irrigation of a grassland is useless since the extra food goes to waste in despotism. With faster growing cities you can produce settlers more quickly. In the previous GOTM, quite a few times I had to delay settler production till the city reached size 2.
"Map: Large map; 7 civ's, flat" Hammurabi cuts science funding and many skinny necks after top scientists in Babylon insist the world is round.
Ali - I don't follow your reasoning above. I think cities are worth more, whether you need irrigation or not, whether you have monarchy or not. There could be exceptional situations, but I don't think this is one. Maybe we can continue this in the spoiler (but I am not quite ready yet).
Ali - I don't follow your reasoning above. I think cities are worth more, whether you need irrigation or not, whether you have monarchy or not. There could be exceptional situations, but I don't think this is one. Maybe we can continue this in the spoiler (but I am not quite ready yet).
The world is indeed round. I noticed that during map analysis but neglected to mention it. It is kind of immaterial though.
1. We need to transform all swamp to grassland (except the peat) and irrigate all grasslands before we are allowed to leave the island. This, even for the tiles that are visible, is a huge undertaking.
2. The island cannot possibly be huge or we would never get done. (Actually, those who are so inclined, can find the size of the island by black clicking.)
3. Let say the island can fit n cities max. Regardless of your style of play you will reach n before you are done with transformation/irrigation.
4. Once you reach n your growth is halted till all the irrigation gets done. This could last tens of turns.
5. By delaying the building of your second city (actually cities 2..n) and using your none settler for irrigation you lose in early expansion but can get off the island faster and start growing past n cities faster.
6. The smaller the n and the larger the transformation/irrigation task the more pronounced is the trade off.
Monarchy is a minor plus for keeping the settler since the fruits of its labor cannot be used in Despotism. By itself it would not be detrimental.
I suggest everyone mentions in the spoiler when they got off the island. I have already done it.
No need for the spoiler. We are not going to discuss anything beyond what is known at the start. Here is my reasoning one more time:
1. We need to transform all swamp to grassland (except the peat) and irrigate all grasslands before we are allowed to leave the island. This, even for the tiles that are visible, is a huge undertaking.
2. The island cannot possibly be huge or we would never get done. (Actually, those who are so inclined, can find the size of the island by black clicking.)
3. Let say the island can fit n cities max. Regardless of your style of play you will reach n before you are done with transformation/irrigation.
4. Once you reach n your growth is halted till all the irrigation gets done. This could last tens of turns.
5. By delaying the building of your second city (actually cities 2..n) and using your none settler for irrigation you lose in early expansion but can get off the island faster and start growing past n cities faster.
6. The smaller the n and the larger the transformation/irrigation task the more pronounced is the trade off.
Monarchy is a minor plus for keeping the settler since the fruits of its labor cannot be used in Despotism. By itself it would not be detrimental.
I suggest everyone mentions in the spoiler when they got off the island. I have already done it.
Keep in mind that the goal of this GOTM is not to get off the island first. By keeping the second settler around, you will have fewer settlers later on. Once you fill in the island, your production will turn to settlers in order to transform the land. Keeping the settler may get you enough settler work-turns to compensate for the fewer settlers later (because of the delay in filling in the island), but as soon as you get off the island, those extra settlers will mean quick cities. However, as Ali said, the fewer cities you want to put on the island, the better keeping the NON will be.
I don't think the fact that the settler is a NON will affect the calculation very much, since food will be rather abundant.
I do plan to do the size 1 settler trick, so the NON will be around a little while.
I don't think the fact that the settler is a NON will affect the calculation very much, since food will be rather abundant.
I do plan to do the size 1 settler trick, so the NON will be around a little while.
I just ran several simulations where I used the second settler immediately to build a second city. They all lost to the case of keeping the None settler. Amazingly, the typical case lost in every aspect: population, food, shields, science, and how soon the island irrigation is finished. By always keeping the Peat in use I did manage to come up with situations where I was ahead in shields but it was at the expense of population and food. I built the same cities in the exact same locations every time and aimed for the exact same number of settlers (and other units) on hand when done.
I did not try the case of keeping the None settler till a size-1 settler is produced. But I suspect that will be a loser too.
I did not try the case of keeping the None settler till a size-1 settler is produced. But I suspect that will be a loser too.
I just ran one more simulation, this time building a city with the None settler as soon as a size-1 settler is produced. This attempt came closer but still lost to the scenario in which the None settler is kept.
Ali: Simulations are great for deciding this kind of thing. I used to do a lot of them, trying to learn the principles behind early growth, and they really helped. They aren't so great for convincing other people, because of doubts about how they were run. For example, you
" aimed for the exact same number of settlers (and other units) on hand when done. "
but one goal of the early-city method is to have many settlers when done, for the next phase. I think that was one of Prof G's points in post 29. But if you want to say more about the simulations, I'd be interested in that. Other remarks:
In post 23, I think you are saying "ICS works" and "build cities asap" (I agree). In post 26, I think you are saying "but not here" and in post 28 you list 6 supporting comments. 1-4 seem factual, but 5-6 are debatable. ICS always wins in the long-term, but you are saying that here in gotm 117 a busy NON should get the irrigation done faster. That is not clear (I can argue the other side more clearly in the spoiler) and it probably depends on the size of the island. Even if it is true, it seems to neglect Prof G's point.
I questioned whether monarchy is a major factor (in deciding whether to use the size-1 trick). I thought that in post 26 you disagreed rather strongly (but not sure if you were thinking of size-1, or of long-term use of the NON) In post 28, you called it a " minor plus for keeping the settler" (so, I guess your comment was about the NON? This was part of my confusion). Still, the reasoning doesn't entirely convince me, since BOTH options work better with monarchy. In fact, it may do more for a city than a settler.
About the flat map - it doesn't make much difference in the early game, but if you play for conquest, especially with restarts ON, it does matter eventually. You will find that a large flat map seems much larger than a round one, because you have to "cover" all 4 corners.
Well, I am ready to go to the spoiler, and if you want, we can talk about the actual game results there.
" aimed for the exact same number of settlers (and other units) on hand when done. "
but one goal of the early-city method is to have many settlers when done, for the next phase. I think that was one of Prof G's points in post 29. But if you want to say more about the simulations, I'd be interested in that. Other remarks:
In post 23, I think you are saying "ICS works" and "build cities asap" (I agree). In post 26, I think you are saying "but not here" and in post 28 you list 6 supporting comments. 1-4 seem factual, but 5-6 are debatable. ICS always wins in the long-term, but you are saying that here in gotm 117 a busy NON should get the irrigation done faster. That is not clear (I can argue the other side more clearly in the spoiler) and it probably depends on the size of the island. Even if it is true, it seems to neglect Prof G's point.
I questioned whether monarchy is a major factor (in deciding whether to use the size-1 trick). I thought that in post 26 you disagreed rather strongly (but not sure if you were thinking of size-1, or of long-term use of the NON) In post 28, you called it a " minor plus for keeping the settler" (so, I guess your comment was about the NON? This was part of my confusion). Still, the reasoning doesn't entirely convince me, since BOTH options work better with monarchy. In fact, it may do more for a city than a settler.
About the flat map - it doesn't make much difference in the early game, but if you play for conquest, especially with restarts ON, it does matter eventually. You will find that a large flat map seems much larger than a round one, because you have to "cover" all 4 corners.
Well, I am ready to go to the spoiler, and if you want, we can talk about the actual game results there.
Yes this is allowed.
Only received games from Peaster and Grigor. I'm almost finished with my game.
Remember the 30th is the last day to submit your game....
Remember the 30th is the last day to submit your game....
The Viking, Haleewud and myself submitted games too......
I know there were others who started this GOTM (AliArdavan, Jokemaster, mercurios, Uriwashi).....did any of you finished the game???
Jokemaster
Insert something here
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2010
- Messages
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I messed up my game pretty badly and decided to focus on GOTM 118/upcoming exams. So the answer is no, I didn't finish.
mackerel
Warlord
I disqualified myself with several restarts and GOTM 118 was too much fun instead.
Real life took an unexpected turn for me and I was unable to play, or even check this site, for nearly 3 weeks. I have played GOTM117 to past 1000AD and would not mind finishing it. But being this late I would only do it if Magic says so and no one objects.
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