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gotm 58 spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by bruderpetrus, Nov 4, 2005.

  1. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Sounds like you were ahead of me in tech all the way. So, my game doesn't prove that expansion helps. I guess it would have helped you by finding the Mongols early on. But it's a gamble... you might find them over the next hill, or at the far end of the map in 1500AD.

    I am a little surprised your SSC gave you such large bonuses for undemanded goods over small distances. And didn't its supplies get blocked? (though I suppose solo has explained all this in his ELG)

    Also, what's wrong with a 120g delivery ? The van costs about 120g to rush-buy, so you are getting 120 free beakers. My perspective is that with 40-50 vans in motion, none are very precious. Maybe with a smaller empire you have to get more from each van?
     
  2. ElephantU

    ElephantU Deity

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    I wasn't shooting for earliest; I was curious whether an OCC could be completed in these conditions. As it was I had to take a couple research diversions to gift defensive and counter-offensive techs to the Vikings - they were down to only a couple cities at one point, with the Barbs having taken their biggest. The most significant influence on my Power Rating seemed to be my treasury - when I was doing a tech every 2 turns I had tax rates set to 40-30% and with 170 trade arrows and all three tax improvements I was bringing in a fair amount of surplus gold, not to mention the occasional freight delivery.

    Seemed to me the AI civs did not do much exploring, or all the silly things like shifting their capitals that sometimes happens a lot. Once I launched my spaceship I looked for <600 Wonders to build and only found GreatWall available. One of them even built the Oracle, not to mention the Eiffel Tower which I like to build just after launch to take the sting out of the usual attitude shifts.
     
  3. Carrot

    Carrot Chieftain

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    You are correct. I had stockpiled lots of freigths to build my space ship and with a small empire I was using them faster than I could replace them. Therefore each freight was 50 shields, or 200g, lost towards the space ship. Otherwise it will be enough to gain the cost of rushing it.

    Late in the game my SSC started supplying Gold and Gems, and with three routes all ready in place to Moscow, I could alternate between these every turn. Gold would replace Gems and then the next delivery of Gems would free up Gold. This is however a part of trade that I usually ignore, predicting supply patterns. In this case it was pure luck. :)
     
  4. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Emperor

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    Played real quiet on my little isle, did a significant amount of move a few, click, repeat. So now here I am, late in the game (yes I have all the techs) and am enjoying the full development of the Russian lands, and am about halfway through the Greeks on my way to conquer the world. Stop to check on the rest (yes I have the UN -- a couple of civs have 30 cities, another 20+) and discover that not only are the Mongols starting to build a spaceship, they have all the techs.

    Oops.
     
  5. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Wow! Aside from the fact that you are an excellent OCC player this is an indication of the power of Marco Polo. I had 5 cities, but no Marco and I built the Apollo in 1826.
     
  6. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Caravels do upgrade. They become Galleons and those become transports. Either your Leo had already expired or you did not have the tech that allows Galleons (Magnetism?)
     
  7. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Bulding Great Library in this game is an excellent idea. Now I am kicking myself for not realizing that. It could have saved me a ton of arrows.

    That is what I love about unusual settings: it makes you get of your normal mode of play and think about all the other ways this great game can be played.

    Carrot, your 1360 launch is very impressive. Peaster may yet beat you to the green star, but I am willing to bet you would be the second fastest finish.
     
  8. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    @Ali: I suspected that might be the case (caravel-galleon-transport). I haven't chosen magnetism, because it obsoletes the Lighthouse. Possibly, a poor decision, but this way I have about 20 transports that can move 8 squares per turn (I still have the 80 caravels, too).

    Update: In the last couple of days, I have progressed to 940AD (eg, one more turn). To my great surprise, it is possible to conquer this turn! With "modern" units like transports and spies, the 13 Spanish cities fell fast:

    900AD: I razed Madrid in a sneak attack (unfortunately this disconnected the Spanish road system) and brought in more spies on boat 2.
    920AD: After some van deliveries, I bribed the nearby cities, including Toledo on the opposite coast. It immediately rush-buys a transport from zero. The new cities rush more spies for their neighbors.
    940AD: The new transport carries vans + spies to cities 6-7 squares to the east, which are all quickly bribed (except one pet). My 5-10 crusaders in Spain are just spectators.

    Edit: I finished off the Spanish in 940AD, but kept a pet Zulu city for a republic phase lasting til 1100AD. I had 211 cities at the end, which is probably about 3x my previous max! I don't want to play this way too often, though.

    I liked the map. Some of the continent numberings were a bit devious, but most of the land masses were mercifully thin, allowing fast travel mostly by boat. And I always like a map with lots of grass.

    The best EC strategy on this map might be to push hard for Industrialization (for transports). This could be combined with the settlers + vans + small boats plan that Grigor and I used in the early game.
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Wow! This is truly impressive. I cannot believe that you pulled it off before 1000 on this map.
     
  10. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Thanks, Ali! The map presented new challenges, and I am happy with my result. If I replayed the game, I would aim for about 700-800AD.

    The challenge for EC was moving units more than 200 squares quickly. On a typical large map you have to move them about 100 squares or so, and usually you can do it all by boat. If the extra 100 squares on this map were all ocean, they would only add about 20 turns to the game. But the vertical strips of land probably add 20 more turns to that.

    By this time, you are likely to face problems not seen in BC years, like musketeers and city walls (I was rather lucky not to see many in my game) and large AI empires. So, this map does not favor Grigor's lean approach to conquest, which has produced some dramatic BC finishes on smaller maps. For me, it's hard to imagine conquering much before 800AD here. My game was inefficient in a few ways, so 800AD might be possible with a few improvements, or better luck with huts. I invited SlowThinker to try this GOTM, but I think he's too busy (and he probably prefers games with rehoming of vans). If anyone could beat 800AD, he could.

    I was a little surprised the missing MPE was not a big problem. But maybe its main value for me is getting AI maps to guide my boats, and the boats didn't need guidance this time ("go east!"). :)
     
  11. grigor

    grigor Prince

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    Peaster - Right you are - my game is at 1600 with no Spanish or Vikings in sight. I spent way too much time dilly-dallying with the Russians and Greeks. Bypassing the Russians is an important strategy, and I think your approach to wonders (very few) is better than the alternative of trying to build a potent SSC. FOr instance:

    GW - it is unnecessary - by the time it is a nuisance, somebody will make it obsolete.
    Sun Tzu - was convenient in my game, but not necessary. Conquest will come later, with stronger units.
    Pyramids - I think is useful, especially with so much settler building.
    LH is necessary ASAP
    Magellans - indispensible
    HG - only useful for celebrating in whatever city trade vans are coming from - better to capture it and build:
    MC - a good option
    Leo's - very helpful because of the large number of units necessary in the ancient eras
    SoL - a necessity for conquering when the empire gets huge
    Colossus and Cope's - with most of the advances coming from caravan trade, these can be bypassed

    As can be seen, this map required a very different and specific playing style.
     
  12. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Grigor - I agree with most of your remarks (as usual!). I did not build a SSC, but maybe I built more WoW's than you'd expect:

    1700BC (approx) LH
    1000BC Pyramids
    825BC HG
    150BC MC
    260AD STWA
    400AD Mag's
    460AD Leo's
    600AD SoL

    I captured Col, GL and GW but they were no help. I also built a few more WoW's such as JSB and Darwin late in the game. IIRC the HG seemed pretty urgent, since I had approx 16 cities then, and was losing maybe 15 shields per turn to Elvises.

    STWA? I avoided Feudalism until 100AD (because the AI's always seem to get it from me somehow, and then I face pikemen). But by that time, the Greeks got it by themselves (so I got it from them). And in 180AD the Vikings started on STWA. I am not sure this WoW is necessary either, but I like it in a big game. It gives you an edge if the AI put up a fight [sneak attacks, pikemen and/or walls]. And by that time I had 50 cities, so it was not a huge drain.

    In general, my western cities built vans for trade (lower corruption rates + longer distances = good trade bonuses) and WoW's. My eastern ones built mainly boats and a few military units. All these places constantly made settlers to help push the frontier further east (canals, colonies and ports, short roads). I played 2.42 and stayed peaceful with most AIs at first, so I could trade with them, bypass them and outgrow them. Tribute later. Conquest much much later.

    You are at 1600AD ? Don't you have transports and spies by now ? Why aren't you pushing east at 8 squares per turn ? .... I suppose your AI got big and nasty in the industrial period !?
     
  13. grigor

    grigor Prince

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    My AI is still a tiny pussycat, although I don't know about the spanish or vikes. I destroyed the Russians (BIG blunder) at a great cost of time and especially foreign trade. I didn't get through their island until I got to the far eastern tip (missing the quick ocean access in the south), and I still don't have a fast way through that continnt. I then got stuck by fighting through the greeks too. At least I bypassed the Zulus for a while (now they are down to one trade city). Meanwhile, I spent a lot of vans building wonders, thinking that an SSC would help - it sort of does, but not without foreign trade... and I have been in Fundy for a while.

    Pretty lame this month.
     
  14. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Emperor

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    I want to add my :goodjob: for the map maker on this one as well as all the other who have.

    I'm now a couple of turns past 1900, having dallyied quietly...and now am enjoying the pressure of having to speed to the enemy and destroy them. I picked up the last Greek city two turns ago as well the two Mongols cities on the Greek shores -- now to cross... (and now the Zulus have started their ship...and the Spanish are getting a tech per turn...) only 98 AI cities to conquer.
     
  15. URUWASHI

    URUWASHI Warlord

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    I like to congratulate the creators of the Map.
    I have never played a more challenging and Harder game.
    Took me 6-8 Sessions of at least 8 + hours, to finish it!
    I have to call this a Machiavellic Map.... or Maybe the Mother of ALL maps ..!!
    But, It was a bit frustrating......This Map brings an interesting point that was and will be again an issue again and again....Black Clicking.
    Because of my CIV II version. Black clicking WAS not an option for me in this GOTM .
    Interestingly I was able to use Black Clicking in certain Maps in previous games.
    I " discovered " Black Clicking a few Months ago...though I rarely use it....this be a Map that requires it, for Quick Conquest, or for Early Landing based on the parameters and the rules of this game.
    Why is that I was able to use Black Clicking in previuos GOTM but not on this one ??
    Was Black Clicking disabled by the Map Creators ??
    Are some versions of Civ II 2.42 ( like mine ) apt to have Black Clicking disabled ??
    Do any other players, using a similar version, have the same problems ???
    I have to admit that in a map of this lenght , and with such an incredible design like this, black clicking can give whoever has the ability to do so, an inmense advantage.
    And Im justyfing my thought because I read that some other players have reach the Mongols , Zulu's or Vikings by 1400 or 1500 !!
    In a map that only has 14 Tiles North to south... finding what's is hidden a few tiles away, allows the player to determine some future moves ...avoid waisting some precious turns.
    In a regular Map , it may not be important because is more than one way usually to reach the next Ocean.
    Remember this in NOT a round Map....so the point here is GET EAST ASAP.
    Black Clicking then , Its crucial.
    Im am not complaining, since Black Clicking as been ruled as a Legal part of the game.
    Version 2.42 does not allow you to Re-Home Caravans...so I never had a problem with that.
    If someone wants to Re-Home Caravans ..in other versions , its up to the player to do so.Even if Re-Homing Caravans is illegal....who can control that?? I can not do it in My Civ Version....So, Im excempt.
    IF I could, I probably find that too tedious, so I will never do it anyhow.
    My ultimate point is , " How can Black Clicking work in some GOTM and not in others ?? "
    Plus, not been able to Built MP, made it extremelly difficult.
    Truly, I could have tried to exchange Maps with the Russians , and Greeks after establishing Embassys.
    But that leaves another 4 Civs.
    Took me to about 1700 to reach the Greeks. And Late 1800 to find the Mongols.
    For instance Im certain that by using Black Clicking and locating the right spots in the Russian Isthmus , then again in the NorthWestern Russian Peninsula ( 72.6 ) and (76.6 ) , I could have sped reaching other Civs.
    I could have reach the Greeks by 1400-1500
    Can the Map creators can disable Black clicking.
    Its that possible ??
    Then, if this is the case I think it will be fair for all players to play an open Map.
    Maybe all players had the same issues and Black Clicking was not an option for anyone.
    Maybe it depends on the CIV version. I am not certain.
    In any event, I got frustrated a few times. Searching for the Northern and Southern Passes in Russia Land.
    And Again, by the Landlock Seas in Greekland.
    Im glad I decided to go for the Early Landing.
    Have I decided to go for the Quick Conquest ( ? ) , I am guessing , a fast transport, will have take me close to Vikingland by 2010. I probably could reach 3 /4 of the Map! By game's End
    The Easternmost square I Conquered and reach in the game was Samarkand ( Location 191 ). After Apollo I found that The Easternmost city in the Map ( Spanish ) is located at 486 !!
    I figuered that a transport , from Samarkand ...traveling a straight line plus Magellan ,( or 7 Moves per turn ..) without encountering any continents will still take over 20 Turns to reach the Easternmost square!

    I should have build a second Ship just to be able get an Embassy established in Madrid......!!( laughing )
    Anyhow I am very happy with the way I played the Game.
    I managed to send a 40.000 space ship a few turns after 1900.
    I doubt my score can finish on the top 10....but IT WAS A FUN Game.
    In any event. GREAT Concept....Great Map.
    Thank you !!
     
  16. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    URUWASHI - I agree with you that black-clicking was a great help in finding good routes, sites for canal cities, etc, on this map. So, you had a serious disadvantage, but I can't imagine the cause - I played 2.42 and had no problems with that. Also, I don't think 2.42 stops you from re-homing vans, but it is illegal in most competitions, such as GOTMs.

    Tip for new black-clickers: It may be hard to decide whether an area such as "10" is land or sea until you get there. It can even be both, if the map designer wants to make your job harder. But "63" is reserved for lakes, so whatever is adjacent to one of those is land (or both).

    You can zip across this map pretty quickly if you stay to the south and don't stop to fight with the AI's. You need lots of cities, and boats carrying mostly settlers. Overseas/foreign van deliveries seem important (probably necessary - not sure) to support the push.
     
  17. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    URUWASHI, black clicking has its limitations. For example, the main ocean and the upper left continent are both number 1. Large lakes get their own number and are indistinguishable from land masses. In this GOTM Russian continent was number one; so was the ocean surrounding American home island.

    I think this map would have been as much of a challenge, but a more uniform one for everyone, had it been revealed apriori. The decision not to allow Marco was totally unnecessary in my opinion as well.
     
  18. Ace

    Ace Emperor

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    I disagree about Marco Polo. By not allowing it, you are not able to contact all the AI civs early on and get their maps. (And, at the same time, you are not able to get "gifts".) This game would have been much easier if MP was allowed.

    While "Black-Clicking" can be very helpful, it is not the same as actually seeing the map, which MP will let you do. I.e., it will show you two hexes of land that are touching, but will not show you the "canal" that lets you pass ships between those two hexes. Revealing the map, at the start, would have eliminated the fun of exploring, which is a major part of the game.

    IMHO, this map was designed to frustrate "black-clickers". Like the ocean around your home continent and the Russian continent being the same number, and not actually having an ocean, but many large lakes.
     
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Ace, what I was trying to say was that this map was so greatly designed and such a monumental challenge for the conquest players that even by revealing it apriori it would have retained almost all of its challenge.

    You are right about the other aspects of Marco though. The lack of ability to exchange techs and gift your key civ did add significantly to the difficulty. Getting gifts, however, hardly matters if you are not playing OCC (and for OCC, Marco was allowed) as there will be few opportunities for them.
     
  20. URUWASHI

    URUWASHI Warlord

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    I apologize..I was wrong about Black clicking.
    YES..the fact that the Russian Landmass returned a " 1 " , make me belive that was something wrong with my Civ.
    Devious! ..Yes, after a few tries I gave up on Black Clicking.
    After I finished the game I checked on some tiles , and they returned the " normal " numbers ( ie 63 for a lake ).
    By the way Peaster- My version is 2.4 ( Aug 8 1996 ).
    Not 2.42 as I mention earlier.
    Caravan rehoming is not a feature available in this ( 2.4 ) version.
    In fact I learned about it from this site.
    So even IF It was legal ......I could not rehome Caravans
    Not an option.
     

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