GOTM 68 Spoiler

Peaster said:
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My question is - should a demo player with moderate skill even stop to think?

This is not intended to be offensive! It is clear that good demo players DO think, much more than I have in my game. I could certainly understand answers like "yes, a really strong PD is just more fun" or "yes, to speed things up and try for a gold star". Just curious about the psychology of demo players. :)

Just as a comparison, should a chess player with moderate skill...etc?

To do justice to a demo game (and, really, any game except an ICS), you really should check all of your cities each turn. Its time consuming, but it allows you to use all your resources to the max. You take advantage of IPRB, and move your citizens around to make the best use of your available resources. Like, if you need 9 shields to finish a build and your city is producing 10, pull a citizen off a one shield hex, and put it where you will get more trade and/or food. It seems like peanuts, trading one shield for say +1 food and +1 arrow, but over many cities and many turns it adds up. If your cities are celebrating to grow, you also need to check them to make sure they will continue celebrating. I.E., check the happiness to be sure the next citizen won't add a red face to the city.

I'm afraid that the phrase "attention to detail" is the key to a good PD game. That means it will take more time and planning to successfully complete it.
 
In most GOTMs, the real strength... at least the full exercise of the potential strength... is not normally possible. One can only really exercise one or two dimensions of it, and so that's probably what some think a PD is.

At Diety, given an even start with a human playing PD, the AI will be no match militarily and in terms of science, and hence a player will never see or get to use the military side of PD. When a mid or late game non-PD human who is having a relatively "even" match with the AI(s) militarily takes the 10 or so turn transition, then swicth to PD, you can overcome the AI very quickly and develop technology mismatches, like vet fighters against musketeers, artillary on RR against legions, howies vs. anything, etc. Then the fun is in keeping thePD growing, but allocating a certain part of your resources to the direct military machine, while "setting up" the AI to play into your hands to get the Senate on your side, or go around the Senate (e.g., getting the AI to backstab you, or declare war on you).

But in terms of GOTMs, where a player knows about and intends to zoom up the tech tree and get those mismatches so early, then there is little serious military aspect. One could even say that a PD pretty much eliminates the need for nukes (in game terms), which is good because nukes only slow a PD due to engineer wasted man-days for repair and cleanup. One could even make a Civ 2 PD analogy to America and the wars it has fought since WWII... it diverts little resources to war (compared to economy and growth), fights with minimal "high tech" gear in most cases, has difficulty with citizens at home when the troops are away... but if it wanted to, could declare martial law and utterly flatten & annhilate & kill everything that moved in any given battlefiled, region, and almost any nation (albeit at great cost).

So what is left in a GOTM PD is mainly the expansion & growth aspect, balanced sometimes with extra science. Since the absolute score of Civ 2 is unsuitable for realistic monthly play (takes absurd amonts of real time) as we found out in the early days of GOTMs (Everyone would simply want to max out their score in 2020), the speed element in GOTM scoring is used. This then put an emphasis on efficiency (micromanagement) and in some ways 'elegance' (city layout, long term planning, when is when to end, etc.).

Since population is the biggest contributer to Civ 2 scoring, then ways to maximize that aspect are important... and PD seems to have the most advantages there.

I imagine the psychology of Demo players you ask about depends at least partly on what their state of PD grasp & application. A person new to PD would likely simply get excited to see it start working for the first time in a game they were playing, and then spend time looking at and pondering if its really true that payins shield support for every unit outwieghs a big city... or if a big city is such a good idea with all the pollution (so how do I pay for the MT/RP to remove it [Freight]). A person who can play PD, but knows it can go even better, then looks for ways to accelerate it. Those that can take most any game and get into a PD efficiently (and there seem to be a lot of those kinds of players now!!) will look to refining their play and the details, and what-balanced-against-what gives the best return, for their real-time play. That is I think what Duke and I and I'm sure others run into.

Its good to realize that PD is just one aspect of Civ 2; I think its actually the most fun in playing things like the WW2 scenario (like being Germans, in a PD, hehe). But there are lots of other strategies in Civ 2 that do not have as their goal ultimate strength and innsurmountable power, like OCC... Size 4 OCC... Early Landing... Early Conquer... even goals (in scenarios).

The most serious downside to a GOTM PD is the late-game building. In private play (not GOTM), myself and others usually quit somewhere around the Hoover Dam (on a random map), and just talk about aspects of the game along the way... no scoring, etc. But any comparison game, be it and OCC, or GOTM, or Solo's EL have some sort of underlying goal. Interestingly, a long time ago somewhere, I remember even suggesting (in the very early days of GOTMs) that population might be removed from a scoring method; in the end, the square root was used to mimimize the effect of mushrooming population, and discourage thoughts of food freight/FCT (so tedious, especially if you have tried it or seen that 26,000 ex-HoF game of Shadowdale) being used to obtain high population points. I've also suggested things like a cutoff year (or game turn) as a possibility of reducing end-game tedium... but there are side-effects of any given alteration, too.

So Civ 2 is Civ 2... and power comes from the people, and more people = more power, and more score... and so how to get that... the PD seems to still be the most efficient way to get that power/people/points quickly, even after 5 years. Hopefully players doing PD can adapt it to more "mainline" private play, where you simply want to rule your world, and do it with power, and not be accountable for little things like mistakes in micromanagement (the GOTM score is a harsh taskmaster). :)
 
I have control over everything (except maybe my Senate) so it seems to qualify as a "Power" democracy.
If your Democracy is "strong" enough to seamlessly switch among growth, or economy (raising gold), or science, or expansion (generating new citizens/engineers without dropping your overall empire's citizenry), or... war (generating a fighting machine and waging a major war without collapse, or even serious impact, of your Democracy), then you have a PD. There is no one "formula" to get there... but when you have it, the only "thorn" in your side at times might be getting into war, and staying there. That takes early planning, and sometimes patience. Andu developed one way to conquer in a PD, and not be faced with incessant peace (31. Emissary's Ploy: Avoid Senate interference in Democracy war). I prefer using high-mobility military units, freight, spies, and aircraft supported by naval bombardment (when possible) to keep a sweep of a civ going in a large war in PD (this never happens in a GOTM, since the AI can never match the human and even generate partisans when you take their cities).

So congratulations, you have a PD... and now you get to play Bob the Builder :D .


PS, What you are talking about with dumb moves (e.g., RL speed and priority, manifested in mistakes) is what Duke & I were referring to in figuring what to do ino our games in the remaining real time... e.g., how many mistakes are OK, if xxx amount of real time can be saved. I put a lot of those kinds of thoughts into my log, which lets people see those kinds of considerations and tradeoffs at work. :)
 
Ace said:
Just as a comparison, should a chess player with moderate skill...etc?

:lol: Funny you should ask! I have probably spent more time thinking about chess than Civ2 [I am a Life Master]. A chess game usually ends, by resignation, when the outcome becomes clear. So, yes - while the game is still undecided, a chess player should certainly think about it. Other activities - like running a marathon - may be difficult, but may not require much thought. So, I was wondering whether late-game civ2 is more like a chess game, or a marathon.

From starlifter's answer [Thanks!!], it sounds more like a work of art. You can put as much effort into it as you want, depending on how much pride you take in it, how much time you have, etc.

Perhaps I am a Civ2 Philistine - no offense intended to Philistines. I focus on one specific goal per game, and every decision is based on that. I enjoy the games and take pride in most of them, but I don't TRY for that - it's just a byproduct.

And starlifter's second point was that PD is a good way (maybe the best way?) to aim for a GOTM gold star. I've won several gold stars without democracy, but I must admit he is probably right. An ICS start + a PD finish = good chance for gold. But with limited RL time, I'd suggest that a strong ICS start + build some Wonders + EC = a decent chance at gold.

@starlifter: I can't say much about my GOTM69 in this thread, but yeah - it seems pretty easy to do whatever I want (but slowly, in RL time). I'm even feeling better about my Senate now. Maybe I will realize later that my carelessness was serious, but so far, it seems I should get into the usual Blue Star range [approx 3000-8000 Civ2 points] mainly thru endurance. I imagine that aiming for a Gold Star [approx 500-700 GOTM pts] would require more care. :cool:
 
Peaster said:
:lol: Funny you should ask! I have probably spent more time thinking about chess than Civ2 [I am a Life Master]. A chess game usually ends, by resignation, when the outcome becomes clear. So, yes - while the game is still undecided, a chess player should certainly think about it. Other activities - like running a marathon - may be difficult, but may not require much thought. So, I was wondering whether late-game civ2 is more like a chess game, or a marathon.
It can be either. Those with the time and determination will continue to play it like a chess game and eek out those few extra points over those who don't. But, when everything is established it can certainly be run like a marathon still with very decent results.
 
starlifter said:
Since the absolute score of Civ 2 is unsuitable for realistic monthly play (takes absurd amonts of real time) as we found out in the early days of GOTMs (Everyone would simply want to max out their score in 2020), the speed element in GOTM scoring is used. This then put an emphasis on efficiency (micromanagement) and in some ways 'elegance' (city layout, long term planning, when is when to end, etc.)
...
Interestingly, a long time ago somewhere, I remember even suggesting (in the very early days of GOTMs) that population might be removed from a scoring method;
To cut down on the real time it takes to do micromanagment I recently started a thread suggesting that we modify the GOTM scoring formula to reward fewer cities over more cities just as it rewards quicker finish time over longer ones. I volunteered to develop and suggest a formula for try outs but have not gotten around to do that partially because I am spending too much time micormanaging my GOTMs.
 
And my city stats:

Code:
YEAR:        00 01 02  03  04  05  06  07 
Peaster:      1, 3, 4,  6, 10, 15, 25, 39
Ali:          1, 3, 6, 10, 16, 23, 29, ?
Starlifter:   2, 4, 9, 10, 13, 19, 22, 43 
DoM           2, 5, 5,  7, 10, 19, 33, 59

I tried to experiment with focusing on building a small core group of cities and celebrate them up early for expanded growth later. It does show that I was able to catch up.
 
still in use today, 10 years after Civilization II was a reality! It looks to be a outpost of sanity in a pool of MTV generation give-it-to-me-in-3D of most games today.

Do you do a summary of the outcomes and player's analysis somewhere? That table is an intersting idea, for example. Population number might also be, at least for early game comparison (not happy, just head count, like total citizens + settlers). :cool: :goodjob:
 
I tried to experiment with focusing on building a small core group of cities and celebrate them up early for expanded growth later. It does show that I was able to catch up.
And they would also be more powerful, at least compared to mine, since I was killing off 4 (sleaze), so my numbers were inflated until 2028 (with 4 shrinking), I think. I think this could have certain mathematical advantages over the EC start, and it would be interesting to compare them in terms of population progression and resource control in early game.
 
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