GOTM114 - First Spoiler

civ_steve · Jul 4, 2011

GOTM 114 - First spoiler, Ottomans, the Ancient Age

Reading Requirements:

Must be able to research a Middle Ages Technology.

Posting restrictions

Feel free to discuss distant contacts and trades, but be discreet about locations or directions of any AI.
No discussion of middle-ages (or later) including resource locations.
AS ALWAYS, do not post Spoiler information for ANY other 'X'OTM contest.

What decisions did you make regarding establishing your capital? You have a decent sized starting landmass, but you aren't alone; how are things going with your nearest neighbor? And how did contacts go with the remaining civs? Any good trades? Position entering the Middle Ages - all good, or do you have more work to do?

PaperBeetle · Jul 5, 2011

So Far, Sogut, So What?
Aiming for 20k again, I use the worker to start looking around to see if there is a good spot on both coast and river. Indeed, there is: with all the hills around, I see a couple such options to the south of the starting position. I decide to put my capital in the 5-food spot, and the 20k city (Istanbul, of course) 2S of there. The 5-food spot may not be capable of 4-turn settlers, but it sure can do 2-turn workers to boost Istanbul's population. Sogut is founded 3950bc, and builds 2 axes then a settler. Istanbul is founded 2710bc, and immediately starts wonder-building. It's always nice to have Masonry, so Pyramids are available from the outset. When I meet Monty in 3350bc, I trade for Burial, and later give him Alphabet for Bronze, so my first real wonder target is Colossus.

Into the Inevitable
The barbs are everywhere. I rashly pop a hut in the southeast to generate three of them, and more start pouring in from east, west and north. The Aztecs are everywhere too, perhaps drawn in by the barbs, perhaps with murder in mind. Either way, come 1525bc, there is an archer/jaguar combo sitting next to Sogut, and I have only two axes left, desperately trying to keep the barb horses out of Istanbul, which is half way through Colossus. The third town is ready, founded in the wine hills to the west, and hurriedly working on military, but I have no recourse to prevent the events of the next turn. Monty dows, takes Sogut in 1500bc, and starts sending streams of archers in to reinforce his attack. This is the start of a grudge match.

Stick or Twist?
Stick. I know Monty has more than enough troops barracked in Sogut to take Istanbul from my single defending axe, but I'm just going to have to gamble that such a thought never crosses his tiny RAM mind. In the west, Uskudar is cranking out troops, but it can't help Istanbul; the Aztec archers are circling round to the west, so Uskudar is basically trading archers 1:1 with the Aztecs, just to stay in the game. My faith in Monty's incompetence is justified, and Istanbul completes Colossus in 1175bc, unmolested, after which it is time to start churning out troops to try and retake my old capital. Istanbul can scrape together 10spt at -1fpt, so 2-turn archers are the order of the day.

QSC Stats
I didn't take proper notes, skipping through 1000bc, as I usually do when in A World Of Pain. But approximately it would have been...
2 towns with 10 citizens and 27 tiles.
1 barracks, 1 Colossus.
1 worker, 1 spear, 3 archers, 2 axes; a mix of regs and vets.
Bronze, Ironwork, Masonry, Alphabet, Writing, Literature, War Code, Burial, researching Laws.
1 contact. Wines hooked.
Istanbul at 42 culture, +4cpt.

Incremental Revenge, Step 1
By the seventh century bc, I have secured the Uskudar area, at least from the Aztecs, though there are unaddressed barb camps in the west. I have a gang of about 8 units free to go on the offfensive, so I head north out of Istanbul, and try to reclaim Sogut. My attack succeeds in 590bc, but the expeditionary force is pretty toasted by the effort. There's no way I'm going to make any further progress, especially as Istanbul needs to get its focus back to culture. I give Monty peace for Mysticism. By this time, Pyramids and Oracle have both been built elsewhere.

Incremental Revenge, Step 2
In the next 20 turns, Istanbul builds its temple and library, while Sogut finally gets to perform its intended task of producing workers to improve Istanbul's land, and then join the city. Uskudar works on troops for my next war, and I settle my fourth town by the northwestern iron. As soon as the 20-turn peace deal is over, I redeclare, and send my mixed stack of archers and swords against the nearest Aztec town, Xochicalco, which lies in the hills northeast of Sogut. I take it, but again, my army is annihilated in the process. The actual capture falls to the stack's escort spear, surviving his attack at 2/4hp.

My Enemy's Friend is My Friend
Despite running out of military again, it is far too soon to open negotiations with Monty, so the war goes a bit cold. Foolishly, he does remedy my failure to build any ships by introducing me to Abu in 90bc. From Abu, I can buy Wheel, Mapping, Maths and Riding. My Republic research completes in 50bc, and the new government is operational by 10ad. After Monty kindly introduces me to Ragnar, I finally decide to give him a break, and trade peace for Currency (which I had mostly researched already) and contact with Shaka. From here, I trade in all the contacts except France, and all remaining ancient techs. I reach the medieval in 130ad, but I'm not the first - the barbs are swarming, and there are at least three active camps on my continent. There's going to be some serious pillaging some time soon!

Istanbul: 463 culture, makes 13cpt.
2710bc: Founded
1500bc: Received palace (on Monty's mainturn - first palace culture would be my 1500>1475bc interturn, I think)
1175bc: Colossus
0550bc: library
0390bc: temple

Raliuven · Jul 7, 2011

I'll I've got to says is stupid &#%#@ Settler Factory. One more fpt or spt and it would have worked. I mistook the FP for being +4fpt irrigated. So much for that. Regardless I turned Sugot into a 5t SF, occasionally pushing out a warrior for a 6t warrior/settler.

VC
Last set was Diplomacy, I think I'll stick with Space Launches for this set. The Ottomans are going to AC!

Beginning
Decide to move one space east and settle. Set worker to mass irrigation but barbs quickly got in the way and I ended up building 4 warriors before starting my granary. I spend most of my time scouting the area and shuffling warriors around to ward off barbs.

First Encounter
I encounter the Aztecs in 3300 BC trying to grab a GH. I make it first and - with my normal luck, generate 3 angry barbs. My luck turns when the barbs flawlessly retreat the Aztecs and then chase him down! They don't even attack my warrior. I think this sets the tone for the Aztec's luck. In 1500 BC I establish an embassy with the Aztecs and, even though they only have 3 cities, the capital has begun the Colossus. That pretty much spells the end for the Aztecs.

I have actually proved rather lucky against the barbs this game - I haven't experienced much loss.

Growth
It felt pretty slow to me. In 2150 BC I place Iznik on a hill with grapes thinking it would allow irrigation to pass through - but it is a bust. My worker spends a lot of time routing water towards the west. 3rd city in 1910 BC. Settle 1st ring at RCP4 and 2nd ring RCP8. 3rd ring is sloppy at 10-12 spacing.

QSC Stats
8 cities, population: 23, 1 settler, 4 workers, 13 warriors, 2 archers, 1 galley. Income 39gpt, treasury 98gp. Contacts: Only Aztecs. Embassy: Aztecs. Research BW, Masonry, Alpha, Pottery, Wheel, WC, CB, IW, Writing, Myst, Lit, MM, HBR. CoL due in 5t. 1 granary, 1 barracks.

After 1000 BC
I establish contact with Spain in 825 BC, France in 730 BC, Vikings in 650 BC, Zulu & Russia in 590 BC, and finally Arabia in 560 BC. Except for the Zulu and Russian, no one knows each other and I play the tech trade game for a long time. Exiting the AA I am still playing the middleman in some cases. I have to say this is an excellent tech trading position.

In 610 BC the Aztecs finish the Pyramids after losing out on the Colossus - I couldn't have asked for a better gift. They have 4 cities. I wage a quick 1st war from 590BC - 510BC and take 2 Aztec cities. I renew the war after 20 turns and exiting the AA I am at war with the Aztecs and they are on the ropes. I have my sights on a free set of pyramids. I do have a bad run of luck against Aztec spears with all the hills they have and it slows my advance considerably. But at the dawn of the Middle Ages, I am poised to take Tenochtitlan and the pyramids.

Revolt in 470 BC and draw a 7 turn anarchy. Curse my luck but become a Republic in 330 BC. NOW Sogut is a SF. Thanks.

I dominate the tech trade and I have just about all the money on the board - about 1000gp. Ener the Middle Ages in 50 BC.

Log 4000 BC - 50 BC

Spoiler :

Memento · Jul 8, 2011

Ohh, i hate this kind of maps. the third map in a row with bad land and no fun.
i stop and hope for the next game.

Scratcher · Jul 10, 2011

I have not been able to get CAII to work with windows 7 since March. I have given this a try but dread the micro-management problems without CAII. I’m not sure if I will finish it, but here’s the start at least.
Open class. Victory condition undecided, but definitely not cultural.

Beginning
I moved the settler NE, NE and settled Sogut in 3900bc. Build order was warrior, worker, granary, settler, settler, and nothing but settlers for the duration of this period, except for a library when literature was completed. Occasionally I needed to defend against barbs but they never really caused much of a problem. Research path was Pots, then straight to Maps. I had a RCP of 3.

First Encounter
An Aztec Jag Warrior was spotted in 3650BC and I trade BW and Mas for CB, WC and 10g. The Aztecs do a good job in the early game chasing down barbs and encampments which probably kept the barbs out of my hair. In 1450 BC I establish an embassy with the Aztecs.
Growth
The first town was placed in 2190BC at RCP 3 and the ring was complete in 1150BC with my 8th town. A second ring started at RCP6. Wines were hooked up in 1910BC.

QSC Stats
9 cities, population: 23, 6 workers, 8 warriors, 2 spears , 2 galley. Income -4gpt, treasury 79gp. Contacts: Only Aztecs. Embassy: Aztecs. 1 Granary, 2 barrack, 1 library
I researched Pots, Alpha, Writing, MM, Phil, Lit, and received CB, WC, Myst and IW from trades with Aztecs. I got the Wheel from a GH. COL due in 2 turns.

After 1000 BC
My first exploring galley spies a Spanish border but is sunk by barbs before contact is made. A second galley finally makes contact with France in 975BC. The Vikings are contacted in 925BC by my third galley while my second galley bravely sinks but gains contacts with Zulu & Russia in 825BC before she went down. The third galley switches back and finds the Arabs in 430BC. This only leaves the Spanish and a further two galleys are needed before contact is finally made in 70BC.
I trade maps and techs for money to fund my own research for the rest of the AA. In 670BC I complete Republic and immediately revolt, getting a 3turn period of Anarchy.
The Aztecs have settled along the west coast of our island and I DOW on Aztecs in 370BC to push them back into the north and cripple them for the rest of the game. Details of this war will have to wait as I enter the Middle Ages a few turns later in 330BC.

Scratcher

Nata · Jul 15, 2011

Wanted to play 20K, and like PaperBeetle, decided to put 20K city on the coast/river.
I had a bit more luck though.

The idea was to build 2 settlers and 1-2 workers from Sogut, settle 20K Istanbul and a settler/worker city Iskudar up the river, then disband Sogut and jump the palace to Istambul, then build in RCP 4/7 around it.

Sogut built 2 warriors, than started a settler but after my warrior popped 2 huts with Barbs who started swarming around, I switched to a spear in a panic attack.
Spear then went to guard Istanbul.

I haven't met Aztecs for a long time as was busy building and rearranging cities and killing Barbs, my first tech was CB for a temple, then the usual Alpha/Writing/Lit etc.

Spend AA working on Istanbul, which slowed down the expansion and delayed the first galley launch, so discoveries and MA were delayed until about 100BC.
Monty hasn't bothered me at all but the Barbs were brutal.

But it all came to an end stupidly - French beat me to GL by 2 turns, I switched to GW and after that Barbs started attacking my empty border towns and the game started crashing with GW bug to the point where I couldn't recover the sequence of steps.
So I won't be submitting the game...

But here's QSC which was submitted:

1000BC: 3 towns, 13 people, 1 worker (Barbs killed some), 1spear, 2 warriors, Colossus, Temple, Library, Granary.
Contact with Aztecs.
All 1st techs except Wheel. Also Writing, Lit, Mysticism, 3 turns till MM.

Garvarg · Jul 18, 2011

Why start you 20K south of your Capitol city?
I get it that if none of the AI are near the coast, you can take your time with water based wonders, and of course inland means you cant build them at all, but with only one wheat, I just don't like it. Corruption ( if more than ring 4 can also kill any bonus lands).

I would normally build a settler once the temple is built, build the second city close, and use it to build workers to feed to the Capitol city to bring it up to size 12 ASAP, and produce warriors or spears to defend the Capitol. With all the hills around the starting position, plant one spear on a hill and the barbs are drawn to it. With the defense bonus, and the way the barbs usually only send warriors and horses one at a time, they become vets and often elites and survive most battles.

In the ancient age, There are so many wonders, you don't need to pre-build anyway.
Tech can be slower, put production is what counts. (GL is a must, so I can save cash to build an army later)

In the middle ages, I would have enough towns to use the FP as a prebuild if my 20K was not in the Capitol, but I hope to have a few barracks built and with some luck I can get a leader or two to build a wonder or two.

Sometimes that plan actually works!

PaperBeetle · Jul 20, 2011

Valid question, and one I only really thought about after this game. But the theory is certainly open for discussion in this thread: short answer is there's a big difference between PtW and C3C.
In C3C, an inland 20k spot is fine because (a) there are more wonders, and they are pretty good in a 20k game for various reasons, and (b) Shakepseare will get you up to pop 20 before (hopefully) 500ad, and hence substantially boosted production from eight extra on-shore tiles. In PtW, however, with neither of those things true, a coastal spot is much more advantageous relative to an inland one.

The choice between using your first or second city for 20k is mainly influenced by difficulty level. At levels where you expect to be far enough ahead in tech that no one will challenge you for the important wonders (i.e. let the AI stress over Sun Tzu and Leonardo and you take the rest from the medieval onwards) lower corruption and immediate culture production usually suggest a 20k=capital game. When the palace prebuild gets more use, in higher level games, a second city 20k makes more sense.
At only 200 shields, I don't think FP is really useful as a prebuild for the 600 shield wonders of the medieval era. Plus, at 1cpt per 100 shields and an spt-increasing effect (by reducing corruption), it should be pretty high on your list of things to build to completion anyway.

GOTM114 - First Spoiler

civ_steve

Deity

GOTM 114 - First spoiler, Ottomans, the Ancient Age

PaperBeetle

Emperor

Raliuven

Emperor

Memento

The World is mine

Scratcher

Emperor

Nata

Warlord

Garvarg

Playing with fire

PaperBeetle

Emperor

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