Gotm14-Babylon Results
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cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
Quokka,
The exploits of Quokkarabi were sorely missed in this game. particularly since Quokkazuma did such a beautiful job conveying the history of his people to all the rest of us. Hopefully "Quokka the Terrible" or "Quokka the Great" will return to join us in this month's events.
The exploits of Quokkarabi were sorely missed in this game. particularly since Quokkazuma did such a beautiful job conveying the history of his people to all the rest of us. Hopefully "Quokka the Terrible" or "Quokka the Great" will return to join us in this month's events.
hbdragon88
haunted by blackness
Actually, I'm a freak in wanting to know everything, even if it is a loss. I was interested in knowing how people won or lost, such as by histograph or spaceship and so on.
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
Flexo, I am not sure what you mean here? Your file submission was corrupted and could not be read to be included in the results. An email was sent to you to try an fix the problem well over a week before the results were posted.
Yes, you did send me another copy after the results were up but that was clearly well after the deadline had passed.
We are watching for your GOTM15 submission to make sure the problem does not occur again but we need to rely on you a little bit to check your email and try to resolve any descrepencies before the results get posted.
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
hbdragon,
The table provided you with all the information you needed to determine the answers that you sought. I just reduce the number of times that same word was repeated over and over. The final games in the table share common cells in the results columns for Defeats by conquest.
I deliberately did not list the game turns played for every player in an effort to only focus the attention on expectations that may be set by looking at the performance of some of the top players in the game.
Much of this information would have more value if you had at least one game submission in the record for any previous GOTM to help you gain a better perspective of the process.
I'll ask creepster to pay special attention to look for your Gotm15 game submission.
The table provided you with all the information you needed to determine the answers that you sought. I just reduce the number of times that same word was repeated over and over. The final games in the table share common cells in the results columns for Defeats by conquest.
I deliberately did not list the game turns played for every player in an effort to only focus the attention on expectations that may be set by looking at the performance of some of the top players in the game.
Much of this information would have more value if you had at least one game submission in the record for any previous GOTM to help you gain a better perspective of the process.
I'll ask creepster to pay special attention to look for your Gotm15 game submission.
Ahh ok ... nevermind then ... it really doesn't matter all that much to me. Think I'll submit my gotm15 tonight so you can watch that. Don't think there is something really wrong since it has worked flawlessly before ... This was the first time something apparently went wrong.
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
Beest,
The most appropriate way for you to address questions that basically only apply to you is for you to use the Private Message or email systems. That way you do not inconvenience 100's of other people with an issue that is really only effecting you as an individual.
I initially looked to add you game instantly, but found that it was submitted as an incomplete game so It has just fallen back as a lower priority issue that I unfortunately have not gotten back to yet.
I am still working on it and if the game had been submitted as a completed victory or defeat then I could have added it straight away.
We are working on this issue for future games but for this time, submitting the incomplete game just threw a monkey wrench into the works that is not yet resolved.
The most appropriate way for you to address questions that basically only apply to you is for you to use the Private Message or email systems. That way you do not inconvenience 100's of other people with an issue that is really only effecting you as an individual.
I initially looked to add you game instantly, but found that it was submitted as an incomplete game so It has just fallen back as a lower priority issue that I unfortunately have not gotten back to yet.
I am still working on it and if the game had been submitted as a completed victory or defeat then I could have added it straight away.
We are working on this issue for future games but for this time, submitting the incomplete game just threw a monkey wrench into the works that is not yet resolved.
uhm
I don't mean to be inflamatory or anything but I have a great deal of trouble believing that some of the top scorers didn't do some form of reload cheating. Particularly with people like DaveMcW who played to 2050 and had 13 turns/reload. This means, basically, that he reloaded a total of 540/13=41 times. However, he had the game in the bag to be milked at the halfway mark in 1400ad. He said above that he basically just hit spacebar the entire time, so we have to assume that basically all of these reloads happened during the first 270 turns. Meaning that he played an average of 270/40 = 6.75 turns per reload.
6.75 turns per reload?
I have a very hard time believing that someone got on their computer and played only 6.75 turns per sitting. ESPECIALLY on a Standard size map. Maybe I'd buy it on large or huge, but certianly not standard. We're basically saying that in a game that lasts perhaps 20 hours (quite reasonable for a Standard map with no hardcore milking) he played an average of 20 minutes or so per sitting. And if I know hardcore Civ3 players, I know there's no way they don't have more than 20 minutes of free time per sitting
This isn't necessarily directed at Dave, who very well may have played 20 minutes per sitting, but at many of the people who were on the charts. I just don't see how anyone can look at look at the scores and not realize that something is definatly amiss. I don't know what the other "game validity characteristics" are, but I sure would like to know how they validated the scores of the folks who were reloading every 6 turns.
Again, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to inform you people about how a reasonable person with a fair amount of Civ3 experience would view these results. Note also that even with doing some reloads (I don't submit) I got my ass handed to me in GOTM14. On the ones where I did win and played fair I would estimate that I reloaded about once every 50 turns on a standard map. This would be indicitive of a maybe 3 hours per session for about 50 turns/session since I usually win by domination at Knights/Cavalry.
So I'd like to hear any opinions the rest of you have. Also, I'd like to know how to check the number of turns/reload.
I don't mean to be inflamatory or anything but I have a great deal of trouble believing that some of the top scorers didn't do some form of reload cheating. Particularly with people like DaveMcW who played to 2050 and had 13 turns/reload. This means, basically, that he reloaded a total of 540/13=41 times. However, he had the game in the bag to be milked at the halfway mark in 1400ad. He said above that he basically just hit spacebar the entire time, so we have to assume that basically all of these reloads happened during the first 270 turns. Meaning that he played an average of 270/40 = 6.75 turns per reload.
6.75 turns per reload?
I have a very hard time believing that someone got on their computer and played only 6.75 turns per sitting. ESPECIALLY on a Standard size map. Maybe I'd buy it on large or huge, but certianly not standard. We're basically saying that in a game that lasts perhaps 20 hours (quite reasonable for a Standard map with no hardcore milking) he played an average of 20 minutes or so per sitting. And if I know hardcore Civ3 players, I know there's no way they don't have more than 20 minutes of free time per sitting
This isn't necessarily directed at Dave, who very well may have played 20 minutes per sitting, but at many of the people who were on the charts. I just don't see how anyone can look at look at the scores and not realize that something is definatly amiss. I don't know what the other "game validity characteristics" are, but I sure would like to know how they validated the scores of the folks who were reloading every 6 turns.
Again, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to inform you people about how a reasonable person with a fair amount of Civ3 experience would view these results. Note also that even with doing some reloads (I don't submit) I got my ass handed to me in GOTM14. On the ones where I did win and played fair I would estimate that I reloaded about once every 50 turns on a standard map. This would be indicitive of a maybe 3 hours per session for about 50 turns/session since I usually win by domination at Knights/Cavalry.
So I'd like to hear any opinions the rest of you have. Also, I'd like to know how to check the number of turns/reload.
I know that when fighting wars, it takes an immense amount of time, especially with multiple SoDs and artillery. If you have animations turned on as well, that lengthens several turns to what seems like eons. Also, when you consider the amount of time spent thinking about options- war now or later, will this city flip prematurely, etc., Civ games can stretch out for a long time.
My SGs, and any game where I take time out to log and take screenshots, take about 3-4 times as long per set of 10-20 turns or so, even when at peace. My reload count (300+ turns, I think) in GOTM14 was low because I never conducted an offensive war. I also had around 7-8 cities only to change build queues for, and only enough workers to help that number of cities out. Note that I lost that game to Jerxes' spaceship, while still in the Industrial Age myself- might there be a reason for that?
Although I've never milked a game, I can see why 'hitting enter' would be extremely tedious... you have to factor the 'boredom when you've won and want to play a different game' feelings into the time spent per session. I get this when I'm fairly sure I'm going to achieve victory anyway, which is why I've moved up to a level where I'm almost never 'sure' I'm going to win (emperor).
Challenges like 'highest score', or self-constrained behavior, such as trying an OCC, probably help keep the fun in it for the top players who are experienced at 
the Deity AI.
My SGs, and any game where I take time out to log and take screenshots, take about 3-4 times as long per set of 10-20 turns or so, even when at peace. My reload count (300+ turns, I think) in GOTM14 was low because I never conducted an offensive war. I also had around 7-8 cities only to change build queues for, and only enough workers to help that number of cities out. Note that I lost that game to Jerxes' spaceship, while still in the Industrial Age myself- might there be a reason for that?
Although I've never milked a game, I can see why 'hitting enter' would be extremely tedious... you have to factor the 'boredom when you've won and want to play a different game' feelings into the time spent per session. I get this when I'm fairly sure I'm going to achieve victory anyway, which is why I've moved up to a level where I'm almost never 'sure' I'm going to win (emperor).
Challenges like 'highest score', or self-constrained behavior, such as trying an OCC, probably help keep the fun in it for the top players who are experienced at the Deity AI.
hbdragon88
haunted by blackness
Definitely, with a lot of units it'll take a long time. In one instance (not in a GOTM) Egypt stacked what must have been 100 units (no exaggeration) next to a city and the battle took 10 minutes. Because after the first city was razed, all the units moved to another location, and so on...
Each game is different but if you plan on milking a game there comes a point in the game where there is a huge amount of manipulating that has to be done (workers, troops, city build lists, etc) At this point in the game my turns go up to as much as 30 minutes to an hour a turn on a large map. This can last for a while if you are going to milk the game properly. The last 100 turns or so may be more of the check domination limit, rush some items, verify civ is still blocked hit enter. Even that can take a while.
Any way back to the point.
Xnec there has already been a long discussion on exactly what you are talking about. Check it out. I really don't want to repeat what has already been said. Whle no system/method is perfect I can honestly say that I do not believe the top players reload. While I did not finish GOTM 14 it was quite winnable without reloading. I had gotten to the point where the Persians were subdued and I controlled most of the continent. I did all of that with out reloading, and I do not see a need for reloading in any game. Accepting the outcome of a well planned event provides a much better learning experience in my mind.
Any way back to the point.
Xnec there has already been a long discussion on exactly what you are talking about. Check it out. I really don't want to repeat what has already been said. Whle no system/method is perfect I can honestly say that I do not believe the top players reload. While I did not finish GOTM 14 it was quite winnable without reloading. I had gotten to the point where the Persians were subdued and I controlled most of the continent. I did all of that with out reloading, and I do not see a need for reloading in any game. Accepting the outcome of a well planned event provides a much better learning experience in my mind.
xnec, yesterday I spent 6 HOURS on a single turn on the current GotM. I won't say anything more (spoiler issues), but sometimes you end up spending a lot of time working out exactly what you want to do. I ended up saving and reloading twice in that single turn. Do that a few times, and it can really throw off the balance.
For the record, I reloaded 10 times in last months QSC, which is the first 80 turns. That's once every 8 turns! (You can check my QSC timeline, I recorded everytime I saved for the night or had to do an unplanned reload: I'm playing on my WinME machine, which has a tendency to crash, cause th wife needs the XP) On most turns, I spent about 20 minutes per turn. Some took over an hour, a few only took 5 minutes. That fits in quite well with your estimates. Imagine what it is like for me when I get into the industrial times (granted, I have stopped taking detailed notes for the QSC by this point, so that does save me some time). It boils down to play style. I like to consider all my options, rather than blaze ahead. That style takes longer, but tends to result in higher scores.
For the record, I reloaded 10 times in last months QSC, which is the first 80 turns. That's once every 8 turns! (You can check my QSC timeline, I recorded everytime I saved for the night or had to do an unplanned reload: I'm playing on my WinME machine, which has a tendency to crash, cause th wife needs the XP) On most turns, I spent about 20 minutes per turn. Some took over an hour, a few only took 5 minutes. That fits in quite well with your estimates. Imagine what it is like for me when I get into the industrial times (granted, I have stopped taking detailed notes for the QSC by this point, so that does save me some time). It boils down to play style. I like to consider all my options, rather than blaze ahead. That style takes longer, but tends to result in higher scores.
Aye, I understand what you and Creepster are saying. I know very well that there are some turns which can take a great deal of time, particularly at Emperor and Diety when minutia becomes critical. However I think crashes are atypical and 100 unit battles are rare for a Standard map, particularly when you are waging middle-age war. I don't doubt that the majority of the top players are legit, since I've seen many of their timelines and have recreated the entire scenario for myself. However I know that from personal experience (perhaps this is my failing) that there is no way anyone needs to reload every six turns on a Standard map. I don't think people from GOTM14 were reload-spamming to get leaders, just that perhaps they got a raw deal on a machine-gun wielding Spearman who wasted 8 Knights in a critical battle for a capitol that would've set them back 20 turns. I typically don't reload at all unless playing Emperor+, but I know that sometimes I end up screaming at my 6 fallen Infantry and the temptation to reload can be overwhelming. This is why I ended up turning on Preserve Random Seed. Why on earth isn't this implemented in the GOTM maps?
I just don't see it. I mean, your 8/turn was when you were, I assume, documenting your last QSC. That can easily take a ton of time because you have to document each turn, each unit, each action. But almost always I can get to 10ad (100+ turns) in 2 hours. Since we're all advanced players we know what we have to do in general and the majority of the time we spend is doing G-Click or Whatever-Click. There isn't really a whole lot of deep thinking, in the sense of more than a few seconds as we weigh possibilities, before we know what we must do. Even if you're selling maps every turn that's still only maybe a minute per trade circle.
BTW, I searched for "reload" in the GOTM forums, is there a link to similar discussions so that I don't have to bother posting again?
Even before I was documenting for QSC, it normally took me about 15 hours of game time to get to 10AD. I personally just can't conceive how you guys manage to play an entire GotM in a single day! I MM everything, plot out my moves 50 turns in advance, etc. I've never been able to complete a GotM, because I just take too long. Again, style of play. My midgame usually runs about 20 minutes per turn, and I'm not doing ANY documentation at this point. And it's not 20 minutes per turn because of SoD or enemy moves; I don't even count the enemy move portion in my estimate.
Minute per trade circle my lily white @$$! I never spend less than 3 minutes unless they have nothing to offer. I drive a hard bargain, and try many permutations, sometimes going to each guy 3 or 4 times.
We could argue back and forth on this, I'm sure, but I thought I'd at least provide a perspective from someone who is legitimately taking as long as you were estimating. I wouldn't want to be accused of cheating if I were to get a high score (since I fall into the statistic you were calling out), and I'm almost certain that most if not all of the highest scorers are not cheating. You do have a legitimate concern, however, and I fully respect your right to question the validity of the results. I just believe you're wrong
Minute per trade circle my lily white @$$! I never spend less than 3 minutes unless they have nothing to offer. I drive a hard bargain, and try many permutations, sometimes going to each guy 3 or 4 times.
We could argue back and forth on this, I'm sure, but I thought I'd at least provide a perspective from someone who is legitimately taking as long as you were estimating. I wouldn't want to be accused of cheating if I were to get a high score (since I fall into the statistic you were calling out), and I'm almost certain that most if not all of the highest scorers are not cheating. You do have a legitimate concern, however, and I fully respect your right to question the validity of the results. I just believe you're wrong
xnec,
If you like, I could send you one of my save game between 500AD to 1400AD during peacetime and will ask you to play just one turn and time it for me. I just want to see if you can be able to do it within less than 10 minutes per turn. That's my challenge to you. Are you up to it?
Now, let's do the math: If the average turn is about 10 minutes and it takes about 250 turns to win the game (assuming that you are shooting for fastest victory of whatever and you don't care for the high score).
10 mins * 250 = 2500 mins = 41 hours
I have another challenge for you. Please find the most honorable player that you can think of and ask him/her how long it takes to finish a GOTM. Do you consider the people at the RB as honorable players? Do you consider the GOTM staffs as honorable players? Why don't you ask them to see if they can do the GOTM game within less than 41 hours. Since a lot of people here think very highly of Sirian of RB, please ask him to see how long it takes him to finish his GOTM14.
PS: It would normally take me at least 64 hours on a game at the Regent level on a standard map (just a casual game for fun; not a GOTM). A typical Civ3 GOTM would take me around 100 hours to play. Btw, I forgot to mention that I also have a full time job and I'm also married. That means I can't stay up all night playing game like some of you. Therefore, I consider my average 17 turns per session is very very very good.
If you like, I could send you one of my save game between 500AD to 1400AD during peacetime and will ask you to play just one turn and time it for me. I just want to see if you can be able to do it within less than 10 minutes per turn. That's my challenge to you. Are you up to it?
Now, let's do the math: If the average turn is about 10 minutes and it takes about 250 turns to win the game (assuming that you are shooting for fastest victory of whatever and you don't care for the high score).
10 mins * 250 = 2500 mins = 41 hours
I have another challenge for you. Please find the most honorable player that you can think of and ask him/her how long it takes to finish a GOTM. Do you consider the people at the RB as honorable players? Do you consider the GOTM staffs as honorable players? Why don't you ask them to see if they can do the GOTM game within less than 41 hours. Since a lot of people here think very highly of Sirian of RB, please ask him to see how long it takes him to finish his GOTM14.
PS: It would normally take me at least 64 hours on a game at the Regent level on a standard map (just a casual game for fun; not a GOTM). A typical Civ3 GOTM would take me around 100 hours to play. Btw, I forgot to mention that I also have a full time job and I'm also married. That means I can't stay up all night playing game like some of you.
Therefore, I consider my average 17 turns per session is very very very good.
Bingo!
Here is a typical example of an easy trade:Contact CivA and ask to buy a tech, 600 gold he said. How about 500 gold? No! How about 550 gold? Yes! Oh, may be he can go alittle lower. Ok, how about 525 gold? No! How about 535 gold? Yes! Now, we are getting closer. How about 530 gold? No! How about 531 gold? No! How about 532 gold? No! How about 533 gold? Yes! We finally found the best deal that this CivA is willing to sell. However, may be we could get a better deal from a different civ. Now contact CivB to find out his best offer. Don't forget to contact CivC too. And of course, may be CivD too. Finally, come back and actually buy the tech from one of those civs.
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