GOTM84 - First Spoiler

[civ_steve]

GOTM 84 - first spoiler, the Ancient Age

Let's see how you're doing with your cold-arid map!

Reading Requirements:

1. Must be able to research a Middle Ages Technology.

Posting restrictions

1. Feel free to discuss distant contacts, but be discreet about locations or directions of any AI more than about 20-25 moves from your start.
2. No discussion of middle-ages (or later) including resource locations.
3. AS ALWAYS, do not post Spoiler information for ANY other 'X'OTM contest.

Your starting landmass, er, landspot, doesn't have much to it. What did you do with it? Did you build more than 1 city? For Open and Predator players, did any AI come by close enough to make contact before Galleys? When did you get off the island? What were your plans for the AI, and were you able to execute them? Status at the end of the AA?

 

[axehaxe]

Three Words:

What
The
Heck

????

I couldn't get my 3rd city onto the east land until the AD's!!!! By the time I found the 5th city, the Persians already had cavalry and like 45 cities!! I ended up getting ROP raped and lost all 3 cities and back to Hawaii I go. Fortified all units and skipped turns until 2050 AD to see what happens. This was a ridiculous setup!! There is no way to expand fast enough to compete with the AI on a setting like this. A surprise once in a while is ok but this one was a bad joke.

 

[donsig]

I made three cities on the starting island (3950 BC, 2070 BC and 1350 BC) and went as fast as I could towards map making. Tried timing the acquisition of map making with the building of two galleys and a settler (using pre-builds for the galleys). No contact from the AI before I got galleys but I did notice borders to the west.

Got map making before my pre-builds were ready. Ended up founding two cities in the east in 450 BC. The third did not come till 310 AD and the fourth till 530 AD. There was room for these and a few foreign cities as well: Tula (90 AD) and Teayo (320 AD) (Aztec) and Umtata (Zulu) in 250 AD. The Persians were hampered by natural boundaries.

I managed to do some tech trading though I do not recall the details now. The Persians built the Pyramids in 210 BC and followed with the Colossus in 70 BC. The Mongols had the Oracle in 190 BC. The Americans built the Great Library in 90 AD and the Great Wall was completed by the Romans in 110 AD. The Hanging Gardens was built in 320 AD by the Aztecs.

Turns out it was the Aztecs in the west and they had land I needed. They hadn't covered all the land yet so I was able to use a neutral tile on the coast as a staging area for my archers. I captured Texcoco in 370 AD and Tlatelolco in 400 AD in the west. This war started the Aztec golden age. I captured Tula in 460 AD and Teayo in 540 AD in the east. Thus ended the First Aztec War. I founded a city in the desert near Texcoco between the Aztec and Zulu lands in 670 AD.

 

[Sima Qian]

Ahh, warlord. Since I couldn't get above pop 4 until after either getting out of despotism or building a harbor, there was no point to have any MPs in the beginning. Went straight for temple, then used barracks to prebuild for Colossus while I waited for research on bronze working.

Surprisingly, Colossus gave me an early GA (1450 BC) which would've been completely wasted had I not mined a couple of hills. Traded masonry from Persia, the first AI to show up, and used Pyramids to prebuild for Great Library (70 AD).

By 110 AD, Prime Minister Hiawatha has a pretty complete map of the continent and is building Great Lighthouse, though it is still unknown what this may be a prebuild for.

 

[krakedhalo]

Built a temple to start, probably the first time I've ever done that, then got 2 more cities with temples on the east and west extremes of the island, and eventually another just south of the capitol.

Those are going to be the only cities I build.

Get MM, push out two galleys and set all cities to Archers. Left them on archers until the Aztecs were living in a little hut squeezed in under China and I had all their towns. Once the Aztecs were out of the way I looked around for some resources, and took the Zulu town in charge of horses (+ 2 more for peace) and switched to Mounties. Sent remaining archers to pick up the American Iron town (NY, I believe) and got to MA somewhere in the American Campaign.

My first game in a few months, so I figured I'd do something different. When I got MM I decided to go the no settled towns (after Frozen Hawaii) route. I was very tempted to try a different game though, which I've had fun with before: Send one settler over to the E and go for a 20k win without building any troops. That's a fun win, though it's a bit nerve wracking since you can lose on literally any given turn.

 

[civ_steve]

... There is no way to expand fast enough to compete with the AI on a setting like this. ...

If you've submitted your game already, I can only urge you to read some of the other spoiler entries and try some other approaches. For instance, bee-lining to Map-Making is critical on this map, and you should have no difficulty doing this while still in the BC's. And at Warlord level the AI is actually handicapped compared to the Human player. Why only 2 cities on the starting landmass? Are you using both of the Fish and the Whale? Did you have Galley pre-builds going? Pre-built Settlers with defenders? This is a great map to tighten up one's early game and make every decision count.

 

[Più Freddo]

Predator
Going for Map Making only

At the very beginning it was clear, that the Capital must be founded
by the Fish in the north, so the Worker went N to the Forest to chop
and discovered the second Fish tile. Scout W.

Now on this island, there would be room for four cities, but then the
Forest chop would be lost. Also, the spread-sheet told us that the
third Settler would be ready only after Map Making was discovered. We
decided to go for three cities.

The second alternative to consider was if a satellite city could be
placed so as to be able to work the second Fish tile at times when the
capital had produced a Settler and was working only one Fish
tile. This would require the capital to be founded 2NE. Again,
spread-sheeting told us it wouldn't be worth while.

Settler went NE, where Salamanca was founded in 3950 BC. It built
Wealth for two turns and then a Settler, which was aided by the Forest
chop. It then went on to build three more Settlers, the third timed
for the discovery of Map Making padded with a lot of Wealth turns and
a Warrior. The second Settler needed two shields from the disbanding
of the original Scout. The Worker after chopping went directly to the
central Hills to road and mine twice and then joined Grand River in
order to bring it to its maximum size of two citizens.

3950 BC Found Salamanca
2900 BC Found Niagara Falls
1990 BC Found Grand River​

Niagara Falls was founded in the south and built a Temple in order to
be able to work the Whale tile. Grand River was founded in the west.

Now the Temple cost 1 gpt or a total of 38 gold until Map Making. In
all cities including the capital, we built Wealth when production was
low, typically 1 spt, to the extent needed to finance the Temple
(minus the ten gold in the treasury). For the rest, three Scouts, five
Warriors, the third Settler in capital the and two Galleys were ready
when Map Making was discovered. The Galley pre-builds were switched
from Settlers in The Big Picture. Grand River started its Galley
pre-build pretty much at once after only two turns of Wealth.

At all times, science was at maximum, except the last turn before
discovering Writing and Map Making, when it was reduced to save a
total of two pieces of gold.

4000 BC Discover Ceremonial Burial
3350 BC Discover Pottery
2390 BC Discover Alphabet
1625 BC Discover Writing
1100 BC Discover Map Making
1100 BC Learn Warrior Code
1100 BC Learn The Wheel
1100 BC Learn Mysticism
1100 BC Learn Masonry
1100 BC Learn Iron Working
1100 BC Learn Horseback Riding
1100 BC Learn Bronze Working​

In 1100 BC, we sent one Galley west with a Scout and a Warrior on
board to meet the Aztecs and one east with a Settler and a Scout on
board to chart and inhabit the land over there. Through trade, we met
many other tribes and learned many technologies. We established
Embassies and started Wars and Alliances.

1100 BC Meet Aztecs
1100 BC Meet Zululand
1100 BC Meet Korea
1100 BC Meet Japan
1100 BC Meet Carthage
1100 BC Meet America
1100 BC Embassy Japan
1100 BC Embassy Carthage
1100 BC Embassy Aztecs
1100 BC War Aztecs
1100 BC Alliance Japan vs. Aztecs
1100 BC Alliance Carthage vs. Aztecs​

1025 BC Found Allegheny
_470 BC Found Cattaraugus​

At this point it seemed tedious to continue, but I sent some Galleys
out to pop huts and made a half-hearted attempt at Barracks and
Archers. Some huts I could pop at the very border of foreign cities.

925 BC Pop Hut Warrior4: Worker
900 BC Pop Hut Scout3: Technology
900 BC Learn Philosophy
900 BC Learn Mathematics
875 BC Pop Hut Warrior3: Technology
875 BC Learn Code of Laws
875 BC Learn Polytheism
690 BC Pop Hut Scout2: Technology
690 BC Learn Currency
650 BC Discover Literature
530 BC Pop Hut Warrior1: Maps
290 BC Pop Hut Scout1: Technology
290 BC Learn Monarchy​

At a point I met all the rest. War Happiness came early, but wasn't
really needed since our cities were all very small.

900 BC War America
900 BC Meet Rome
900 BC Meet Persia
900 BC Meet Mongols
900 BC Meet Egypt
900 BC Meet China
900 BC Meet Arabia
900 BC Embassy Zululand
900 BC Embassy America
900 BC Alliance Zululand vs. America
710 BC War Carthage War Happiness!
610 BC War Zululand War Happiness!
610 BC Peace Japan​

I still lack Construction at this time, but have decided not to play
on. A kind of pre-mature ejaculation, I guess.

 

[Più Freddo]

4 Towns
8 Citizens
1 Temple
3 Scouts
5 Warriors
2 Galleys
6 Contacts
3 Embassies

All first-tier techs, IW, Writing, MM, Mysticism, HBR.

QSC Score: 1636

 

[Megalou]

Granary in Salamanca. 4 towns on island.

1175 BC - Spotted Aztec worker. We had decided to build a western temple for this purpose. It worked out. We give them Alphabet for nothing, then Writing for contact with America. America gives us 64 gold for Writing.

1050 BC - We accidentally trade Warrior Code from China.

530 BC - Whipped temple near horses on western continent.

510 BC - Horses connected to Oil Springs.

310 BC - Misclick cost a settler. (The B-button.)

Around 110 AD we enter the Middle Ages. This could have been earlier but we were waiting for The Republic to come in. Unfortunately Japan beat us to the Republic by a couple of turns so I am unable to trade Middle Age techs from the scientific civs or Japan.

As the 110 AD minimap shows, we have muscled ourselves in between the Aztecs and the Zulus. Lots of whipped temples there. Unlike Mr Freddo I am wary about happiness wars. When I reach 12 towns, Salamanca shall be abandoned and the palace should reappear on the flood plains of Alice Springs. FP prebuild in Niagra Falls. But we must get to Feudalism and Sun Tzu so that we don't run out of prebuild options in Niagra Falls.

 

[Più Freddo]

Unlike Mr Freddo I am wary about happiness wars.

Why? .....

 

[Megalou]

Well, I was trying to settle the eastern shore (from the starting point) and with all resources except settlers going to the Zulu area didn't want to have a war with Persia. I guess I could have allied Persia. Only I would have to ally Zulu and Aztecs too because they could have wiped out our fragile foothold there.

Spoilers are so brief nowadays it's hard to compare games. I have no idea what you did to get a foothold, what kind of risks you took. Nice start, though, as always.

 

[Più Freddo]

Well, I was trying to settle the eastern shore

I see. Thanks!

Spoilers are so brief nowadays it's hard to compare games.

I guess we are all lying when we call ourselves Civ fanatics. We're just sort of interested in Civ as a pastime. The fanatics taught us and left.

I have no idea what you did to get a foothold

I didn't yet. When I stopped, I had three Galleys with five veteran Archers and one veteran Spearman off the Aztec shores. But I was also trying to expand to the east. But the land there was so bad.

Nice start, though, as always.

Thanks! I wish I could improve my middle game as well.

 

[Megalou]

Of course, still being here makes us fanatics in a sense. Like everyone else we have to deal with all the impulses of today's society pulling us in different directions. And the risk of getting everything half-assed. Your lack of inspiration for the middle game and my lack of precison in the build-up phase (spread-sheet? I barely know the meaning of the word) are, I'm sure, both connected with some kind of urge to focus on something else or the lack of a reason to focus harder. The question is what or why not.

 

[DWetzel]

"Now on this island, there would be room for four cities, but then the
Forest chop would be lost. Also, the spread-sheet told us that the
third Settler would be ready only after Map Making was discovered. We
decided to go for three cities."

I used the forest chop to create the first settler, after settling south of the original start location (the whale came into radius on the first culture expansion), and ended up with four cities in total in roughly a knights-move pattern from there (my second city is where the forest was, and where most people's capitals are).

No contacts before mapmaking. Entered MA in 150 AD, with a complete world map and six cities (including two off-island to the east). Min running on Republic, with hopes to take off after that and get a Diplomatic win eventually.

 

[Più Freddo]

"Now on this island[...]

...given that the Capital goes by the Fish. I said that, too, didn't I?

 

[DWetzel]

...given that the Capital goes by the Fish. I said that, too, didn't I?

Sorta, yeah. Of course, if you don't put the capital by the fish...

 

[greatbeyond]

What would be good for comparison is:
How many cities were settled on the starting Island?
What was the date you learned MM?
What was the date you settled a city off the Island?
What was the date you met the first Civ?

I settled one city 1NW of the hill on the East of the island. I considered a second city to get the whales and then decided I wouldn't waste the production. I probably should have done tests to see what the optimal number of cities was to get the fastest MM date.

I'll have to go back myself and see what the other answers are. IIRC I met most of the other civs very quickly, and the tech pace was very surprising for this level. By the time I learned MM there were only 4 Civs that didn't have it. I then went for Literature and the GL only to see most other Civs get it before me. I had a prebuild ready for the GL but it wasn't even close when one of the AIs built it. This will probably turn out to be a game that goes very late, because of the delayed start.

The one key thing that really set me back was renegotiating a Peace treaty with Greece. I was trying to start a couple of alliances tied to peace. I had several techs the Greeks didn't have, ~30G, and they were pleased with me. I wanted them to sign an alliance tied to a Peace Treaty. Not only did they refuse, they wouldn't even take techs and/or gold for peace. This led to a very long war and they signed Egypt against me. I never lost a city but eventually had to pay through the nose for peace just so I could get back on track. The RNG conspired to make the Greek Warriors invincible to my Archers. It was pathetic.

AxeHaxe I would try it again a couple of times if you have already submitted. It is clearly possible to win.
The only one I see taking a different path is Sima Qian. Trying for another culture win?

 

[Megalou]

As far as I can see this is why the tech pace was fast: The human player started in a very small world on a large map. The large map means more beakers are needed for each tech. So in fact I think it was the human tech pace that was slow.

 

[civ_steve]

I was intrigued by this game set up. Having set it up myself, I can't play in the competition. But I thought I'd go about setting a serious restriction on my game and see if I could pull it off. The question is - founding only on the starting icy/hilly island, never owning an city on the mainland, and never trading for or possessing any resources, can one pull out a 20K cultural victory.

So, after moving the Worker north and seeing the 2nd fish (what? there's 2 fish? ), I moved the Settler to the NE and founded on the 2nd turn.

Planning: initially Salamanca can only get to size 4 - using the 2 fish, the woods and a mined hill. Maximum of 5 spt. Once I get Map-making, I can build a Harbor and get 2 more food out of the 2 fish, allowing growth to size 6 (no aquaduct and no fresh water), and get to use 2 more hills. Up to 9 spt in despotism. And eventually, once I get an aquaduct, I can grow to size12 using coast spaces at least; after getting Republic (I'll need the commerce), I'll get 2 more food out of the fish allowing use of 2 more hills. So I can evenually use all 5 hills and the forest, so I don't really want to chop the forest, giving me the most production for building Wonders, and I also don't want to found any cities on the hills. That leaves only one space for 1 more city on the tundra space just South of the starting location.

I pretty much have to build Great Library to have a chance. I'd like to build 1 other Wonder before that. Between Colossus and Oracle, I like the lower cost of Colossus and the extra commerce; this will generate an early GA, but I can't guarantee getting an expansionistic Wonder later so this may be for the best. Besides, at 5 spt it'll take 40 turns to build the Colossus, vs 60 for the Oracle. Those 20 turns may allow me another Wonder later.

So start research on BronzeWorking at Maximum, and start building a Settler.

Gold will be very important, so just before learning any Tech I must remember to reduce the Science slider to just enough to finish the Tech, gaining me a little extra gold that would other wise be thrown away.

My worker starts out roading the Woods, then roading and mining nearby Hills spaces.

BronzeWorking is learned, and I start on Alphabet - Pottery - Writing - MapMaking.

Using the Fish space, than the 2nd fish space, and finally, at size 3, the Woods, I complete the Settler. Start on Colossus.

As soon as Salamanca grows to size3 the Worker is joined to the city to push it to size4 and help build the Colossus.

Niagara Falls is founded in 2800 BC, and builds 2 Warriors (1 MP each), then a Temple; upon expansion it has access to Whales. The extra gold saved as each Tech is learned helps to pay for the Temple. Niagara Falls builds 2 more Workers which work on roading/mining the hills.

Colossus is finished in 1075 BC; Golden Age starts. Pre-build uses Granary; a few turns later Map-Making is finished and Literature started. Use "Show Me the Big Picture" and change pre-builds in Salamanca to Harbor (completes this turn) and in Niagara Falls to Galley (completes this turn.) 2 Workers are joined to Salamanca, getting it to size6 and 13 spt (with the Golden Age). Luxuries have to be set at 10%. It starts on Great Lighthouse as pre-build for Great Library.

I've already seen the Aztec culture to the West, so it's an easy decision to sail that way and make contact. I'm up Writing on Monte, but I can't make a good trade for Techs or Contacts. That's OK. I press Enter, and on the next turn I see 3 more faces on my F4 screen. Monte has done me the favor of selling my contact to them (at no cost to me )

Trading time! Before I'm done I have contact with all civs to the West, pretty much all the gold, about half the map to the West, and most available Techs (except Horsebackriding). In some cases I could trade Alphabet!

OK, I send the Galley South, since I can tell by the map made visible that I've made contact with all the civs to my West. (Besides, somehow I just know there's MORE civs that way! ) Eventually I come across Egypt, and the trading starts again. When I end I've got about 840 Gold, the entire Map, all Techs (Math and Philosophy as well). Paying for improvements is no longer a problem! No point in sailing around anymore so I return the Galley to the home waters. This would be the last time I'd have any unit outside of my culture!

After Literature, research continues on to Code of laws, and I buy the last 2 turns off Rome, eventually. Great Lighthouse pre-build is switched to Great Libray. The GA is long over by now, and I can't get past 40 turn research on Republic, so I start on minimum and start saving my money.

Niagara Falls builds a Harbor. A Worker or 2. A Library, and a couple more Workers. The whole island is roaded and mined.

Finally, Great Library completes in 70 AD! Next turn I learn Construction, Currency and Polytheism, and join the AI in the Middle Ages. So far Salamanca is up to a grand total of 11 cpt.

to be continued ...

 

[Megalou]

Great fun, civ_steve!

This would be the last time I'd have any unit outside of my culture!

So this is another one of your self-imposed set of rules? You didn't mention it in the beginning of the post. So how will you go about chasing great leaders? You're not going to pass that up, are you? Effective leader chasing is the greatest thrill in a 20K game, I think. In fact it's why I still favour PTW.

Are you just trying to make your game quick?

Or are you being even more cunning, doing all your leader chasing inside the Iroqouis boundaries on the mainland?

Time will tell...