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granary or settler first?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Rustwork, Jul 7, 2010.

  1. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    When i was Talking about optimal playing, i meant that you and some other really good Players just use your Best skill...

    And in Case you want some results to discard, then only i could offer a helping Hand ;-)

    templar_x
     
  2. del62

    del62 Deity

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    Another factor to take into account is, who quickly can you switch to a different type of Government, both reducing corruption and allowing cash rushing / short rushing of workers and settlers.
     
  3. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    I think this also falls out of scope. At any rate, I think it would be impossible to model. Without goody huts, I don't think you could possibly get out of despotism within the first 60 turns - maybe I am wrong on that, but it would seem superhuman to me.

    Granted, it is practically a given that: 1) get out of despotism as fast as possible and 2) once you are out of despotism, further growth is much easier without the penalty. Suddenly almost every city could be a settler or worker factory.

    Which is not to discount what you say, I think you can just 'factor in' that an early goverment switch will boost the raw data from the test.
     
  4. del62

    del62 Deity

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    I think that research speed is map dependent, but on a standard map at monarch without huts on C3C with a commercial tribe, I can typically hit republic around 1700-1600bc, I am not sure how many turns this represents but I think it is less than 60. On smaller maps it is even quicker, a lot is dependent on accesesible luxuries (slider bar position etc).
     
  5. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    @del62

    1700-1600bc puts that within range - turns 50-57 depending on exact date. I am much impressed. I will admit that I haven't paid much attention to how fast the first government change occurs, but that is certainly valid. It might fall a bit out range with a high anarchy. The anarchy itself might actually hurt purely looking at the first 60 turns. You would have to decide if the improved performance would give better results given the lost anarachy turns. But that is ONLY looking at the test. In a real game, you switch immediately (usually) and you reap the rewards for the next 500 turns.

    Originally I had planned to play to 1000 BC to match the QSC but several things stopped me. That would be turn 80 - and though moving from 60 to 80 turns doesn't seem like much, the calculations and tracking by turn 60 start to become very time consuming. I might still attempt this on some select models, but only because I am :crazyeye:.

    Also, the government switch would require me to pursue an agreesive research policy - and require me to decide on monarchy or republic. In the test game, where I am completely safe, republic would give the best results. Also, I assume that this tech pace is only sustainable because of the presence of multiple AI civs to trade with, whereas I have only 1 Civ opponent and I banished him to a shoebox island far across the ocean.

    So, to cut out those paths (and hours of work) I stopped at turn 60. I also decided NOT to pursue the tech angle, making it impossible to reach a government switch in the given time, anyway. And with no one to trade with . . .

    No doubt that the test is just that - a very select test. So many things happen in Civ3 that it would be impossible to model for everything. Hopefully it can help flesh out this particular issue, however - even if only to suggest a model given a set of circumstances.
     
  6. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

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    I once read one of the mythical titans of Civ3 (i.e. SirPleb or DaveMcW or someone like that) propose the simple rule of thumb that during REX you want to maximise population growth, so if your next city site can match or surpass your capital's +fpt, then go settler first. Otherwise, effectively doubling your capital's +fpt with a granary will be better.

    Personally, I've got a very detailed opening moves spreadsheet, so if the answer isn't obvious, I can try out all different combinations and closely analyse what is working best in the given situation. I should certainly say that with the starts CivSteve gives us in GOTM, I usually go granary first. Next most likely is worker then granary, and settler then granary is the least likely, excepting 20k runs. otoh, when Ainwood used to design the maps, we'd count ourselves lucky to get +1fpt anywhere within 10 tiles of the start, so a granary was an absolute must-have every time!
     
  7. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    **Edit - I failed to mention that all of my current tests have taken place in an environment where there is no bonus fpt available at the capital site and the starts all begin with settling in place - no moves allowed.**

    Not that I want to put myself up against any titans, mythical or otherwise . . . :)

    In my tests (now 15 of 36 complete) I so far have not found this rule of thumb to be true. It seems to make sense, but I have not yet been able to make a settler start expand faster than a granary approach. Even the worker first approach results in a better start - (generally) a shade behind the Granary approach. And as I added food sources, the settler start actually drops further behind in both cities and total population. I am starting to wonder if you will only go with a settler first if you are trying to escape a shield poor desert start. Of course you may use a different opening move depending on your VC, nor am I saying there is only one way to play the opening moves.

    Talking PTW, the worker first approach actually has produced better results (again, just a shade better) with an Industrious Civ if there is a bonus fpt at a second city site.

    One other thing I noted as I have added bonus fpt is that corruption becomes a deciding factor (I know that templar_x already noted this, I am just validating).

    The particular problem is that the city with the bonus fpt attracts the workers but some of that work is lost to corruption. When deciding if the capital or the 2nd city uses shared improved tiles, I was defaulting to give the 2nd city the good tiles to try to create a settler factory. I think I need to test more to find what would happen if I made the capital the priority and see if it has better results. For a straight REX point of view, I don't see it would, but that is what tests are for, right? The logical prediction is that REX slows (fewer cities/citizens) but it will create more military and higher gpt for other things (like research).

    And I have a retraction based on templar_x's warning - maximizing research during REX is definately tricky. Just based off available gpt and treasury, other than in the 'control sample', the settler first approach has yielded the highest available gpt and highest ending bank of gp. It is way too early to call this one. Templar's observation that REX and research are inversely proportional (to an extent) may be unavoidably true. But the further behind the settler REX falls, the higher it rises in gpt/treasury. The difference also appears more pronounced in the non-industrial civ. Again, way too early to call. Entertainment costs are the huge factor here.

    Another thing I tried was irrigating all bonus fpt under the belief that food is the one thing that is not corrupt and population=power. I found that it a) did not work well and b) required a LOT of MM to make it worthwhile. Needs more testing, but I wince at that thought. Main problem here is that a lot of irrigated bonus fpt= lots of citizens, but no shields results in a lot of large cities that demand 40% of your income in entertainment. Pop rushing might be the key to solve that issue. I'm not great at pop rushing, so that will be a new adventure. I’ll need to re-read Cracker’s Opening Moves for sure.
     
  8. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    Raliuven, if you want additional input of others, it may be wise to post some test info:

    + at least one complete test, with pics of the starting position, the point where you installed the SF/granary/etc, description of the early worker moves, best would be the whole spreadsheet where you are calculating each test.
    + the rules that apply with this particular test
    + the rules of all the tests, as you obviously have a general outline for those.

    templar_x
     
  9. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    I have probably thread-jacked this enough. I will post a new discussion for those that are interested. I am work at the moment :( so it won't be until later tonight. I will do as you suggested, post all of the rules, some screen shots (if I can figure out how to make that work) and the test info/spreadsheets.

    I would like to say THANK YOU to everyone in this post that has helped to form my thoughts, ideas and hypothesis. For any new players that are reading, there is a lot of really good info from some really good players. :goodjob:
     
  10. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    posting screenshots is simple:

    press the print button on your keyboard, insert the pic into e.g. paint or a similar program, save it (maybe work it before) and upload it to your post.

    cheers
    templar_x
     
  11. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    Don't I have to use photobucket or something and make it a hyperlink? I have just never looked at photobucket before, so I am unfamiliar.
     

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