Granary or Shrine?

[Redaxe]

If piety doesn't guarantee a religion in Deity then why not use piety in the lower difficulties like emperor or king? These difficulty levels will almost guarantee you a religion even if you use tradition or Ethiopia. Saying that Deity doesn't guarantee a religion with piety is like saying piety will not guarantee a victory which really doesn't. If Deity is too difficult for you that you can't even get a religion with piety then don't use Deity and take it easy. You don't need to constantly force yourself to use Deity and pretend you'll get a religion with tradition. The emperor and immortal difficulties could guarantee you a religion more often than Deity at least but it won't guarantee you victory at th Deity difficulty.

You can actually increase your odds of getting a religion in Diety quite simply. Just select the civs you will play against in the setup and exclude Byzantium, Ethiopia, Celts, Egypt, Songhai & Maya. For good measure throw in the Zulus, Huns & Mongols. These guys have basically no interest in building early wonders or in religion so you will have much less competition for a religion. Select Raging Barbs just to slow the AI a bit more.

 

[ThorHammerz]

If piety doesn't guarantee a religion in Deity then why not use piety in the lower difficulties like emperor or king? These difficulty levels will almost guarantee you a religion even if you use tradition or Ethiopia. Saying that Deity doesn't guarantee a religion with piety is like saying piety will not guarantee a victory which really doesn't. If Deity is too difficult for you that you can't even get a religion with piety then don't use Deity and take it easy. You don't need to constantly force yourself to use Deity and pretend you'll get a religion with tradition. The emperor and immortal difficulties could guarantee you a religion more often than Deity at least but it won't guarantee you victory at th Deity difficulty.

When did Immortal/Emperor/King difficulties even enter conversation?

1) We were never discussing the viability of getting a religion in King to Immortal, just Deity.

2) When the hell did you get the idea that a point was made about getting a religion by taking Tradition over Piety ?

while you are still sitting pretty on 1 underdeveloped city (because again, you went Piety instead of Tradition for your first Policy)

The opportunity cost of taking Piety is not worth it if your civ does not have a innate source of early Faith generation.

Unless your Civ already has innate early Faith generation, taking Piety over Tradition, as a first policy choice will:
- Gimp your growth (read: population, cities, science).
- Not guarantee a religion anyway (you should know better than try to give such a piece of advice).

Again, when they hell did you get the idea that taking Tradition over Piety would guarantee a religion?

You can actually increase your odds of getting a religion in Diety quite simply. Just select the civs you will play against in the setup and exclude Byzantium, Ethiopia, Celts, Egypt, Songhai & Maya.

To be thorough, you should extend that list to exclude every Leader with even a medium flavour in religion

 

[Myth and Legend]

I always go Scout > Shrine and I get a religion about 75% of the time on a Large map on Deity. But I do reroll boring starts.

 

[Xepthrichros]

From what I see about how Piety can't guarantee a religion.

It seems like the Piety tree needs a slight buff to make sure it works properly.

Well, people have said repeatedly that Piety tree is lacking... and here, reading all your comments, makes it even more apparent so.

 

[ThorHammerz]

From what I see about how Piety can't guarantee a religion.

It seems like the Piety tree needs a slight buff to make sure it works properly.

Well, people have said repeatedly that Piety tree is lacking... and here, reading all your comments, makes it even more apparent so.

It's a combination of being underwhelming, compounded with Tradition in general being overwhelming.

 

[Sayya]

When you build a settler, your city can't grow.

You almost always want to build 1-3 settlers in your capital early game

Why would you invest in a building that doesn't work a majority of the time? Just build it after the Settlers.

 

[CraigMak]

This is very situational but I never rush writing or GL. I would go shrine if there is a possible faith producing pantheon for you. If you plan to rush GL you need a granary so that you can use the food to work production without starving.

If you have no good pantheon possible then granary. If you want to rush a wonder then granary. 80% of the time it's shrine because you need your pantheon ASAP so it doesn't get stolen.

 

[reddishrecue]

When did Immortal/Emperor/King difficulties even enter conversation?

1) We were never discussing the viability of getting a religion in King to Immortal, just Deity.

2) When the hell did you get the idea that a point was made about getting a religion by taking Tradition over Piety ?

You don't believe in getting a religion in deity, that's why I recommened you to try immortal or king instead because you said you couldn't get a religion with piety in deity and even if you can't at least you would have the faith to spend on religions that would need to spend faith on.

If you use tradition over piety, you will be less likely to get a religion with a shrine unless you're ethiopia or you get to build the hagia sophia.

 

[Nscorz]

You don't believe in getting a religion in deity, that's why I recommened you to try immortal or king instead because you said you couldn't get a religion with piety in deity and even if you can't at least you would have the faith to spend on religions that would need to spend faith on.

How about we all play settler instead?

You're guaranteed:

-A victory of your choice
-A religion
-First choice on beliefs
-No penalty for grabbing disadvantaged policies first
-And much more!

So let's all go play settler now. Who cares about masochistically increasing the difficulty of playing deity anyway


Edit: To answer the main question, it would really depend. If I'm going straight for the Great Library I'm probably going to grab a granary. While the shrine-pantheon might provide a nice boost, if Boudicca is on the map that usually doesn't work out too well for an early boost.

 

[reddishrecue]

How about we all play settler instead?

You're guaranteed:

-A victory of your choice
-A religion
-First choice on beliefs
-No penalty for grabbing disadvantaged policies first
-And much more!

So let's all go play settler now. Who cares about masochistically increasing the difficulty of playing deity anyway

Playing settler and the lower difficulties gives the ai an easier time in stealing your technologies. If you reach the era when spies are available at the lower difficulties, AI spies will try to steal your technologies in the lower difficulties. I was showing that piety could get you a religion more than tradition because it has happened to me. I have failed to get a religion with tradition in deity before and the majority of times that I adopted a piety start in deity I have been able to get a religion.

 

[Bliss]

IMO piety isn't buffed more because it has a very good potential of becoming overpowered with the correct start and the correct reformation belief.

For the science, it's always good to remember that trade routes produce more science the more is the difference between your science and AI's science. Not to mention Spies, that will steal techs in 5 turns if you fall behind in tech. For the growth matter, aqueducts aren't that much expensive. People overreact about this.

OT: depends on start. 2+ deers/bananas/wheat: granary. Other starts: switch to shrine in the moment I discover pottery, unless I verify a possibility of liberty rush or that honor will be better for my poor start.

 

[Myth and Legend]

IMO piety isn't buffed more because it has a very good potential of becoming overpowered with the correct start and the correct reformation belief.

For the science, it's always good to remember that trade routes produce more science the more is the difference between your science and AI's science. Not to mention Spies, that will steal techs in 5 turns if you fall behind in tech. For the growth matter, aqueducts aren't that much expensive. People overreact about this.

OT: depends on start. 2+ deers/bananas/wheat: granary. Other starts: switch to shrine in the moment I discover pottery, unless I verify a possibility of liberty rush or that honor will be better for my poor start.

I strongly disagree. Piety is strictly worse than Tradition and Liberty (and sometimes even honor) as a starter policy tree. It is supposed to help your religion but does a piss poor job at helping you getting a religion on Deity, since the AI goes super wide and has bonus hammers and food which make it churn out shrines and temples everywhere.

On the other hand, if you are a faith civ like the Celts or Ethiopia you don't NEED piety since the only good thing about it is Jesuit Educatin wich you will still not get because the AI has more culture than you and it will take it first.

 

[beetle]

Piety is strictly worse than Tradition and Liberty (and sometimes even honor) as a starter policy tree. It is supposed to help your religion but does a piss poor job at helping you getting a religion on Deity...

I agree that Piety is strictly worse than Tradition and Liberty -- and Honor too. I struggle at Deity, so I am scared to try this, but if one goes full-bore Piety (even at Deity) I would think you would be almost certainly guaranteed to found. By the time I close out Tradition or Liberty or Honor, there is almost always still 1 or 2 religions left. Closing out Piety gets a free GPr, and that’s what you need to found. That said...

Is there anything in Piety that helps with culture? Finishing Piety probably takes many, many turns more than getting through one of the other three. Anyone have the rough maths?

Even if it is not much later, completing the Piety tree is not as powerful as one of the other trees. Even if you got your first pick for all the Religion benefits (which, with Deity, you will not).

 

[FaohKi]

Haven't tried Deity yet but today, first time start a game on Immortal. So, my advice may sounds dumb. So, ignore it, if you think it is.

If founding religion is almost impossible and having Shrine doesn't help to get it on deity, why don't you ignore all religious buildings until Hagia Sophia? Work hard till get Theology and build Hagia Sophia.

Is that impossible too?

 

[beetle]

Founding a religion, with any civ, is about 50/50 if you get an early faith-oriented pantheon. So not almost impossible. I have never had much luck getting Hagia Sophia, but that could probably work too. But even if that is your plan, you still need an early shrine.

An early shrine gets you a decent pantheon, but not a religion. So for me, in cap, it is (almost) always shrine before granary. Sometimes, maybe even often, the granary is after settlers (depending on wheat/deer/etc.).

You pick your pantheon to match your dirt, so you will get a good bit from it until turn 100 or so, even without founding. Every turn you wait to get a pantheon is lost opportunity cost.

 

[FaohKi]

I'm currently playing on Immortal -first time- and it's too hard. I mean, really really hard. I found a religion but my science, culture, income etc. terrible. I have enough soldiers and kicked America out of my lands (He came and settled 4 tile away of my capital to get luxuries) I built just 1 wonder and can't even dare to start one because AI builds wonders as fast as a cheetah.

Can't even imagine deity difficulty

 

[reddishrecue]

I'm currently playing on Immortal -first time- and it's too hard. I mean, really really hard. I found a religion but my science, culture, income etc. terrible. I have enough soldiers and kicked America out of my lands (He came and settled 4 tile away of my capital to get luxuries) I built just 1 wonder and can't even dare to start one because AI builds wonders as fast as a cheetah.

Can't even imagine deity difficulty

You can always keep failgold and purchase other things that you might want when you have enough gold such as a settler for a new city or a library in your capital. It doesn't hurt to try for a new wonder since you get a refund if you fail.

 

[amphreded]

My usual tradition continent game is 2 scouts then shrine. Then granary but as soon as you reach 3 pop switch to settler (2 of them in a roll). Switch back and finish granary after you've built the settlers. Need to grab those lands fast before the AI could.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FaohKi]

You can always keep failgold and purchase other things that you might want when you have enough gold such as a settler for a new city or a library in your capital. It doesn't hurt to try for a new wonder since you get a refund if you fail.

Currently, my civ is the worst in science Emperor is too easy but Immortal is too hard but I think trying on Immortal is better. Since no fun left on Emperor.

In my last Emperor game, while I had Giant death robot, my enemies trying to push me back with Great war infantry. But now, things changed and AI probably mocking with my Tech

And thank you for the tip, worth a try!

 

[DocRock]

Go with some god tier civs and/or favourable maps (i.e. Small Continents with England) and reroll until you get a good start. Helps a lot to get accustomed to Immortal.

Regarding Shrine / Granary - what's the big deal with Religions anyways? There is always one Civ that is throwing Missionairies and GPs at you like there's no tomorrow. Unless you conquer all the Holy Cities on your continent, it's not really efficient to have your own religion. It only matters until Industrial Age, after that your faith would mostly go into GE/GS. So build a Granary. That will help all the time!

By the way, don't want to get into an argument again... But specifically going for fail gold?? Well, whatever...