Great People and Cities In Civ VII

[BuchiTaton]

Generic great people creating generic great works may be more strictly appropriate alt history, but at the cost of being bland flavorless nonsense.

For sure a Nubian Bi Sheng or Maori Beethoven add a lot of flavor and make much sense.

CIV6 the game with "culture" civs without any great people of their culture, "science" civs than can not produce a famous scientist, "religious" civs lacking religious figures and "warrior" civs incapable of train their own generals. Immersive!

 

[Evie]

Six thousand years old leaders make no sense. Units needing centuries to walk from one end of Europe to the otjer make no sense. Being unable to settle in New York City becsuse it's less than three tiles away from DC makes no sense.

If you want a deeply immersive historical game, Civ isn't it, never has been, and never will be. It's a history-flavored strategy game with a side of history-flavored empire building game.

You would have us sacrifice what civ does well (flavor) to become a little less bad at what it never was good at (immersion). The result would be neither flavorful nor immersive.

 

[BuchiTaton]

You would have us sacrifice what civ does well (flavor) to become a little less bad at what it never was good at (immersion). The result would be neither flavorful nor immersive.

When "flavor" is that the only possible way to have common ancient luxury tradegoods like Cosmetics or Perfume is through 20th century figures. Then for me this flavor has a taste like those packed artificial colorant and sweetener that claim to be "orange juice", I better get some pure water.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

When "flavor" is that the only possible way to have common ancient luxury tradegoods like Cosmetics or Perfume is through 20th century figures. Then for me this flavor has a taste like those packed artificial colorant and sweetener that claim to be "orange juice", I better get some pure water.

Getting certain luxuries through Great people is another issue that I feel is unrelated to the original complaint of having Beethoven show up as a Great Person for the Maori.

As much as I like immersion Great People fall into the same category as Wonders for me. I don't think we should limit wonder building to only civilizations who built that wonder.

If we allow England to build the Pyramids that to me is the same as having England recruit Imhotep than say a random citizen, Bob the Great Engineer. In fact I feel like Civ 6 does a better job with that considering every civilization is competing to recruit or patron famous great people, unlike previous iterations where I believe they were just "born" into your civilization.

 

[BuchiTaton]

As much as I like immersion Great People fall into the same category as Wonders for me. I don't think we should limit wonder building to only civilizations who built that wonder.

If we allow England to build the Pyramids that to me is the same as having England recruit Imhotep than say a random citizen, Bob the Great Engineer. In fact I feel like Civ 6 does a better job with that considering every civilization is competing to recruit or patron famous great people, unlike previous iterations where I believe they were just "born" into your civilization.

This is funny to me since I also dislike that and almost added it on my original post.

It would be better for me to have the "Royal Tomb" wonder that looks like the Pyramid of Khufu for African civs, the Mausoleum of Qin Shi Hua for East Asian, or the Huaca Rajada for American civs to not have all the gratuitous unrelated wonders.

 

[Evie]

This. If I can build the Eiffel Tower as the Maori I'd better be able to recruit Gustave Eiffel as the Maori.

And I should be able to build the Eiffel tower. Being able to build wonders in random location as random culture is par and parcel of the fun charm of civilization - a fundamental aspect of the game. History going haywire with Abraham Lincoln building the Great Lighthouse of (Not) Alexandria in conquered Beijing in 800BC is what Civ is all about.

The game you want sound like a boring, empty and flavorless historical straitjacket - and it certainly is not Civilization.

I can say with the greatest certainty I would not play that game.

 

[Zaarin]

The game you want sound like a boring, empty and flavorless historical straitjacket - and it certainly is not Civilization.

I can say with the greatest certainty I would not play that game.

100% this. I don't want to play a game where I build "the Royal Tomb" with the help of "Generic Great Engineer." That's not Civilization to me.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

So let me throw in my two kopecks' worth of Vision Of Civ in here . . .

I am going to build the Eiffel Tower as the Maori because Us Maori want a grand monument as a centerpiece to our World's Fair commemorating the anniversary of our great Revolution, when the Maori Civ changed from a decadent dodecapolis into a progressive kakistocracy - so we will hire or otherwise obtain Gustaf Eiffel to build it.

If, by chance, instead we got the services of those other Great Engineers Su Song or Joseph Paxton, we might wind up building a great Water Clock or the Crystal Palace Pavilion as our grand monuments - or that guy Roebling might build us a fancy bridge or two . . .

If, on yet another hand, we aren't doing a World's Fair or have any reason to build a Grand Monument in the near future, our Mr Eiffel might just be helping us build some new railroads through rough country with his very efficient bridges and viaducts.

That, at least in this instance, is how you toss a handful of historical sprinkles onto the top of the gooey confection that is a Civ game . . .

 

[BuchiTaton]

So if ZULU built the Temple of Artemis, Confucius found Islam, and medieval Imhotep are CIVs flavor then are some things to add:
- Let any Great Artist/Writer/Musician make any Great Work for example Goswami Tulsidas could be the author of Beowulf.
- Replace the generic Governors with specific historical/traditional figures.
- Add option to cover any kind since Ancient era.
- Great Performers.
- Great Athletes.
- Great Philosophers for civics.
- Great Breeders for food related, that produce Great Varieties like Champagne.
- Give corporations names to spefic historical Guilds, Companies, etc. (That could be rights free).
- Pantheon with many options of specific deities where you can mix their gods/saints like have Thor+Osiris+Coatlicue+Joan of Arc.
- Very specific ideologies, for example: Zapatista France, Trotskyist Japan or Bonapartist Arabia.
- Particular goverment decrees related to specific historical events, even if they dont fit any of your other social aspects.

 

[BuchiTaton]

More ideas for specific historical named and with unique habilities and bonus:
- Great Spies
- Great Emissary/Diplomat
- Promotion for units and ship

Would be fun to have the German Red Tails pilots and the Russian Black Panther tank crew.
Even if you lost them you can have a militar heroes memorial where you put their names and gives you global militar bonus.

Also Great Chefs! That produce Dishes to put on Restaurants. Nothing like some good Persian Tacos or Polish Sushi.

Every artifact should have a more specific name from a famous archaeological object not just generic ones. Would be great to found the Antikythera Mechanism on a Kongolese city.

Civic symbols from Philosophers, like the holy sites but related to Goverment/Civics. For example Liberty Bell to add some nice bonus for the Trotskyist Japan.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

More ideas for specific historical named and with unique habilities and bonus:
- Great Spies
- Great Emissary/Diplomat
- Promotion for units and ship

Would be fun to have the German Red Tails pilots and the Russian Black Panther tank crew.
Even if you lost them you can have a militar heroes memorial where you put their names and gives you global militar bonus.

In fact, one 'archeological' mechanic missing is the archeological site or earlier Battlefield as a Monument/Tourism destination: think Stonehenge once its religious significance is past, or Borodino, Gettysburg or Waterloo all of which receive thousands of visitors a year.
Once promoted far enough, you should receive a 'special convention' of being able to give commemorative names to Units of all kinds. They could be made up by the gamer or from a List provided in game. I could (ahem) gift Firaxs with a pretty massive list from a wide range of sources which are also 'generic' enough to fit almost any Civ:

The Sacred Band
The Iron Division (used in at least 3 different armies in 2 different Eras!)
Die Hards
Ladies from Hell
Hellfighters
Old Ironsides, Iron Lady, Gin Palace (ships)
Red Tails, Green Hearts, Yellow Tails, Flying Circus, Flying Tigers (all air units)

Also Great Chefs! That produce Dishes to put on Restaurants. Nothing like some good Persian Tacos or Polish Sushi.

Now we're demoting the game to individual restaurants? However, some mechanic for Great Tourist Destinations like Great Hotels, Great Restaurants, Great Spas (which last could include everything from Classical Era thermal baths to Railroad Hotels and 'resorts' like the Industrial Era Brighton Pier and Sarasota, NY). Even if the next game doesn't use the specific Tourism mechanic, they could all be Commercial-Cultural places.

Every artifact should have a more specific name from a famous archaeological object not just generic ones. Would be great to found the Antikythera Mechanism on a Kongolese city.

Civic symbols from Philosophers, like the holy sites but related to Goverment/Civics. For example Liberty Bell to add some nice bonus for the Trotskyist Japan.

Let me add that I think Civ VI really suffered in 'immersion' by not allowing the gamer to interact with the history he/she was writing in the game. A screen shot of a new book, newspaper, announcement of some event, for example, or a Historical Timeline full of specific references to deeds and peoples and characters in that specific game:

"Trotsky-Sama and his Ever-Glorious Iron Buzzard Legion have destroyed yet another enemy army!

Trotsky the Great proclaims Peace with the Zulu!

Archeologists discover ancient frescos: fashions are expected to change next season based on the styles revealed from our Great Ancestors"

And so on . . .

 

[Zaarin]

Sarasota, NY

I presume you mean Saratoga, because living in Florida I got very confused for a second.

Let me add that I think Civ VI really suffered in 'immersion' by not allowing the gamer to interact with the history he/she was writing in the game. A screen shot of a new book, newspaper, announcement of some event, for example, or a Historical Timeline full of specific references to deeds and peoples and characters in that specific game:

"Trotsky-Sama and his Ever-Glorious Iron Buzzard Legion have destroyed yet another enemy army!

Trotsky the Great proclaims Peace with the Zulu!

Archeologists discover ancient frescos: fashions are expected to change next season based on the styles revealed from our Great Ancestors"

Yes, please.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I presume you mean Saratoga, because living in Florida I got very confused for a second.

Sarasota, Saratoga, ya seen one watering hole, ya' seen 'em all

Meant Saratoga, NY, and specifically Saratoga Springs, which has been a major tourist destination since the railroad arrived in 1832 and later added a major horse-racing track to the mineral springs/baths. I think the game missed another major goodie by not making the Thermal Bath Resort an Improvement, representing places like Baden-Baden and others in Europe, Saratoga in the USA, and numerous other 'resort' destinations everywhere. We could cap it with the current Hungarian nearly unspellable Bath in Civ VI or the Baths of Caracalla as a Wonder, and add such Uniques as the Turkish Hammam, Finnish Sauna and Native American Sweat Bath . . .

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Now we're demoting the game to individual restaurants? However, some mechanic for Great Tourist Destinations like Great Hotels, Great Restaurants, Great Spas (which last could include everything from Classical Era thermal baths to Railroad Hotels and 'resorts' like the Industrial Era Brighton Pier and Sarasota, NY). Even if the next game doesn't use the specific Tourism mechanic, they could all be Commercial-Cultural places.

Not sure if Civ will ever do this but I'd like for them to branch out on the Corporation mechanic and not make corporations solely revolve around resources or manufactured products. It would be interesting to found hospitality/entertainment corporations as well as scientific, real estate etc.