Sir Monster The Great
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2016
- Messages
- 122
Here in this thread, I will be discussing theoretical (and possible) best leader builds and civics towards specific goals. I'm not sure if you can realistically build strats around this, but I think generally do and don't really play against the AI. This is assuming Complex Traits and Developing Leaders are on.
EDIT: I think upgrades to traits add to the previous bonus, rather than merely replacing it, much like civics and cross traits. I can't confirm this tho.
The Great People Factory (ultra min-maxing
%):
Civilized (+5%, up to +25 % with upgrades), Glorious (+25 % with a state 
, up to +100 % with upgrades), Gluttuonus (+10 %), Idealistic (+25 %), Philpshoical (ofc, +75 %), Spiritual (+35 % with a state ), Careless (+10 %), and Meek (+10 %). Given the best outcome (you have all these traits, non-upgraded), you'll have a rate of 230 % or 2.3x more than avg.
Realistically, however, the best is 135% (Philpshoical, Spiritual, and Idealistic) or 1.35x more than avg.
I'm counting out those that give% when upgraded, not initially. If we count those (that being Anti-Clerical II +10 % without a state , Creative II +10 %, Crooked III +15 %, Financial II +10 %, Humantrain II 15 %, up to +40 % with upgrades, Megalomical II +10 %, up to +25 % with upgrades, Progressive II +10 %, up to +40 % with upgrades, and Zealous II +10 % with a state ), the best outcome changes from 230 % to 310 % non-upgraded or 3.1x more than avg.
Given the realistic outcome, it changes from 135% to 215 %, or 2.15x more than avg. This is also discounting traits that contradict, as that doesn't any sense to calculate them in the equation.
And this not even half of it. We still have to do civics.
Civics:
Apotheosis (+50% with a state ), Conrnciupia, or Eco Friendly, and Protocol (+25 %), Gelstal Mind or Demoarcy (+25 %, Theocracy with a state ), Post Borders (+10 %), Post Currency and Xenosemoitc (+5% %, +10 % overall), and Compulasury (+5 %, Reglious with a state ).
In total with these civics picked, the best outcome changes from 310% to 460 %, or 4.6x more than avg and the realistic outcome changes from 215 % to 265 %, or 2.65x more than avg.
If we assume that are born at an avg of 25 turns per game, assuming that does not change, and the game speed is Long (4000 turns), the number of turns that is needed for a great person to be born changes from 25 to 10.8 (for the best outcome minus other upgraded traits), 8.1 (for the best outcome and other upgraded traits), 18.5 (for the realistic outcome minus other upgraded traits), 11.6 (for the realistic outcome and other upgraded traits), 5.4 (for the best outcome, other upgraded traits, and civics), and 9.4 (for the realistic outcome, other upgraded traits, and civics).
In other words, the number of great people born per game changes from 160 (4000 / 25), to 216.2 (4000 / 18.5), 344.8 (4000 / 11.6), 370.3 (4000 / 10.8), 425.5 (4000 / 9.4), 493.8 (4000 / 8.1), and 740.7 (4000 / 5.4).
Wow. That was fun. Let's move on.
Ultraprodcution aka The Factory Civ (ultra min-maxing +
and %):
Pure production per city (non-upgraded traits): Humble (+1, up to +3 with upgrades)
Production efficiency per city (doing more than less, non-upgraded traits): Humble (+5% in all cities, up to 15%, up to +3 with upgrades), Megalomical (+10% in the capital only), Pragmatic (+4% in all cities, up to +14% when upgraded), Preeminent (+5%, up to +50% when upgraded in the capital only), and Isolationist (+15% in all cities)
Pure production given to citizens, integrated, and nobles (non-upgraded traits):
Naturalist (great artists give +1) and Pious (great prophets give +3)
Production trade efficiency per
(non-upgraded traits):
Industrious (+30%) and Negotiator (+20%, up to 60% with upgrades)
Pure production given indirectly (non-upgraded traits):
Industrious (every 7 plot gives 8, mines give +4, shaft mines give +7, modern mines give +11, core mines give +13, early quarries give +5, quarries give +8, and stone tool workshops give +2), Nomad (wetlands camp now gives +2)
Pure production per city (upgraded traits):
Anti-Clerical II (+1), Charismatic II and III (+1, +2 with III), Expansive II and III (+1, +2 with III), Innovative II and III (+1, +2 with III) and Industrious II and III, (+3, +9 with III)
Production efficiency per city (upgraded traits):
Charismatic II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Expansive II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Industrious II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Politician II and III and Revouintlary II and III (+5%, +15% with III, in the capital only)
Pure production given to citizens, integrated, and nobles (upgraded traits):
Industrious III (citizens give +2 and great engineers give +4), Medical II (great doctors give +1), and Organized II and III (artists, celebrities, doctors, great admirals, great artists, great doctors, great hunters, great merchants, great military instructors, great sleuth, great spy, great statesmen, investigators, lawyers, merchants, military instructors, nobles, scientists, and spies give +1, up to +2 with III, android workers give +11, up to +12 with III, citizens, priests, and great scientists give +2, up to +3 with III, engineers give +3, up to +4 with III, and great engineers +4, up to +5 with III), and Politician II (great statesmen and nobles give +1), protective II and III (great military instructors and great admirals give +1)
Production trade efficiency per (upgraded traits):
Stubborn III (+10%)
Pure production given indirectly (upgraded traits):
Industrious II (hydrocarbon well, mountain mine, and solar panels give +6, early mountain mines give +2, shaft mines give +7, modern mines and manufacturing complexes give +11, factories and modern windmills give +8, hydro dams give +10, watermills give +4, windmills give +1, and offshore platforms give +1), Industrious III (geothermal factories and hybrid forests give +10, core mines give +12, tidal harnesses give +4, sea mills give +1, and extraction facilities give +5)
Alright. Let's move on to civics.
Civics:
Pure production per city:
NONE!
Production efficiency per city:
Biological Castes, and Planned and Universal Empire and Superhuman (+20%, +80% in total in all cites), Computation and Engineered and Galatic Federation (+15%, +30% in total for Computation and Engineered in all cites), Energy and Enduioma and Interdemionsal and Machine Rule and Instant and Post Borders and Regulated, and Skilled Workers (+10%, +80% in all cites), and Waste to Energy (+7% in all cites).
Production trade efficiency per:
Centralized and Credit, Fiat Money, or Gold Standard, Guilds and Secured Borders or Virtual Citizenship (+5%, +20% in total for Centralized, Gold Standard, Guilds, and Virtual Citizenship)
Pure production given to citizens, integrated, and nobles:
NONE!
Pure production given indirectly:
Biological Castes and Caste System (core mines give +13, shaft mines +7, mines give +4, quarries +5, and lumbermills give +6), Bourgise (plantations give +1), Confederacy (pastures, plantations, and farms give +1) Planned (pastures and plantations give +1, manufacturing complexes give +11, factories give +8, and workshops give +3), Proletariat (lumbermills give +6 and workshops +2), State-Owned (vertical farms give +3 and farms give +2)
Ok. That's done.
Given the best outcomes (having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have +5 per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.
Factoring in upgraded traits, you can +30 per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 40, a 4x increase from the base and a 2x from non-upgraded.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15), and with upgraded traits, it would take 2.5 turns to complete (100 / 40). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 4x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.
Realistically, however, you can't have all the traits. Given a realistic outcome (Humble, Pious, and Naturalist), you can get a +5 per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). This the as the best non-upgraded aka no real difference.
Factoring in upgraded traits (Humble, Pious, and Organized II), you can get a +25 per city or 35 per city, a 3.5x increase from the base, and a 2.3x increase from non-upgraded.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 3.5x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.
Now let us get into the real meat of this,%!
Given both ideal and realistic outcomes (they're the same, having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have 25% per city or have * 1.25 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 12.5 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 18.75 rather than 15.
Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 50 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 43.75 rather than 35.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With 1.25x more aka 12.5 base instead of 10 base , it would take 8 turns (100 /12.5) instead of 10, a 1.25x increase ofc.
For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait of pure outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.25x more aka 18.75 instead of 15 , it would take 5 turns (100 / 18.75) instead of 10, a 2x increase over inefficient base , a 1.25x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .
Factoring in upgraded traits that give pure, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.25x more aka 43.75 instead of 35 , it would take 2.2 turns (100 / 43.75) instead of 2.8, a 4.5x increase over inefficient base , a 3x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 1.25x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.27x increase over inefficient upgraded trait .
Given both ideal outcomes (having all traits, factoring upgraded), you can have 40% per city or have * 1.4 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 14 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 21 rather than 15.
Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 56 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 49 rather than 35.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 / 10). With 1.4x more aka 14 base instead of 10 base , it would take 7.1 turns (100 / 14) instead of 10, a 1.4x increase ofc.
For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.4x more aka 21 instead of 15 , it would take 4 turns (100 / 21) instead of 10, a 2.5x increase over inefficient base , a 1.4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .
Factoring in upgraded traits, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.4x more aka 49 instead of 35 , it would take 2 turns (100 / 49) instead of 2.2 for non-upgraded %, a 5x increase over inefficient base , a 4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 3.3x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.4x increase over inefficient upgraded trait .
Now, this is where horsehocky gets crazy. Let's factor in the civics.
Biological Castes, Planned, Universal Empire, Superhuman, Computation, Engineered, Energy Interdemionsal, Machine Rule, Instant, Post Borders, and Skilled Workers. With these civics picked, you can have 160% per city or have * 2.6 more , per in a city.
With the best and realistic outcomes of non-upgraded traits, that changes to 185% or 2.8 * more , per in a city.
If we factor in upgraded traits, it rises to 225% or 3.25 * more , per in a city.
For just civics, base rises from 10 base to 28 base .
For non-upgraded pure traits period and just civics, base rises from 15 base to 41 base .
For upgraded pure traits and just civics, base rises from 40 base to 106 base .
For civics and non-upgraded traits%, base rises from 10 base to 30 base .
For civics and upgraded% traits, base rises from 10 base to 34.5 base .
For civics, non-upgraded traits% and non-upgraded pure traits, base rises from 15 base to 44 base .
For civics, upgraded% traits, and upgraded pure traits, base rises from 50 base to 164.5 base .
This is just for ideal outcomes aka just for show.
Now we do the ultimate test. How many turns would it take to build every building in the mod per column in one city, with none of those buildings giving? We will answer this in this thread.
We will combine all the most realistic possible combinations (Humble, Industrious II, and Isolationist), meaning 11 pure per city * 2.8 more , per in a city, combining % traits, and % civics. That comes out to 30.8 per city.
It gets more complicated than that tho. There's a thing called trade routes. Let's just say act as a direct%, but you need a route. * that by 1.5 (all coming from civics and Industrious by the way). Comes out to 46.6 per city.
There are also improvements that give. And those are also modified by traits. So let's factor those in. Say there is in the vicinity of this city a core mine, a manufacturing complex, a hydro dam, and a vertical farm. All of those combined with civic bonuses come out to be +48. Adding that to our finalized per city comes out to 104.6 for this city. That is the baseline without buildings that modify or add to .
Let's say that each building costs 100 each and the X value of that doesn't change its costs. There are around 144 X columns in the tech tree. 144 * 1000 = 144000. The game speed we use is long so it's * 1.25. That comes out to be 180000. For the level of production we have (104.6), it would take 1720 turns in order to fully complete the entire tech tree full of buildings. Long has 4000 turns. That means you would only be 4.3% of the way to completion in your game and you would basically be done, building-wise.
We've done it. We've conquered this beast.
Tech Rushing (ultra min-maxing +
and %)
I'm back. I'm back to put this in motion.
Pure science per city (non-upgraded traits): Civilized, Minmalist (+1, up to 3+ with upgrades), and Scientific (+1, up to 11+ with upgrades)
Science efficiency per city (doing more with less, non-upgraded traits): Civilized, Innovative (+5% in all cities, up to 15% with upgrades), Megalomical (+5%), Pragmatic (+4% in all cities, up to +14
% when upgraded), Preeminent (+5%, up to +50% when upgraded in the capital only), Minmalist (+5% in all cities, up to 15% with upgrades), and Scientific (+10% in all cities, up to 20% with upgrades)
Pure science given to citizens, integrated, and nobles (non-upgraded traits):
NONE.
Science efficiency given to citizens, integrated, and nobles (non-upgraded traits):
Naturalist (great prophets and prists give +1 %), and Progessist (enginner give +1%)
Science trade efficiency per (non-upgraded traits):
Industrious (+30%) and Negotiator (+20%, up to 60% with upgrades)
Pure science given indirectly (non-upgraded traits):
Progrissve (non-state still give base )
Pure science per city (upgraded traits):
Anti-Clerical II (+1), Charismatic II and III (+1, +2 with III), Expansive II and III (+1, +2 with III), Innovative II and III (+1, +2 with III) and Industrious II and III, (+3, +9 with III)
Science efficiency per city (upgraded traits):
Charismatic II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Expansive II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Industrious II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Politician II and III and Revouintlary II and III (+5%, +15% with III, in the capital only)
Pure science given to citizens, integrated, and nobles (upgraded traits):
Industrious III (citizens give +2 and great engineers give +4), Medical II (great doctors give +1), and Organized II and III (artists, celebrities, doctors, great admirals, great artists, great doctors, great hunters, great merchants, great military instructors, great sleuth, great spy, great statesmen, investigators, lawyers, merchants, military instructors, nobles, scientists, and spies give +1, up to +2 with III, android workers give +11, up to +12 with III, citizens, priests, and great scientists give +2, up to +3 with III, engineers give +3, up to +4 with III, and great engineers +4, up to +5 with III), and Politician II (great statesmen and nobles give +1), protective II and III (great military instructors and great admirals give +1)
Science trade efficiency per (upgraded traits):
Stubborn III (+10%)
Pure science given indirectly (upgraded traits):
Industrious II (hydrocarbon well, mountain mine, and solar panels give +6, early mountain mines give +2, shaft mines give +7, modern mines and manufacturing complexes give +11, factories and modern windmills give +8, hydro dams give +10, watermills give +4, windmills give +1, and offshore platforms give +1), Industrious III (geothermal factories and hybrid forests give +10, core mines give +12, tidal harnesses give +4, sea mills give +1, and extraction facilities give +5)
Alright. Let's move on to civics.
Civics:
Pure science per city:
NONE!
Science efficiency per city:
Biological Castes, and Planned and Universal Empire and Superhuman (+20%, +80% in total in all cites), Computation and Engineered and Galatic Federation (+15%, +30% in total for Computation and Engineered in all cites), Energy and Enduioma and Interdemionsal and Machine Rule and Instant and Post Borders and Regulated, and Skilled Workers (+10%, +80% in all cites), and Waste to Energy (+7% in all cites).
Science trade efficiency per:
Centralized and Credit, Fiat Money, or Gold Standard, Guilds and Secured Borders or Virtual Citizenship (+5%, +20% in total for Centralized, Gold Standard, Guilds, and Virtual Citizenship)
Pure science given to citizens, integrated, and nobles:
NONE!
Pure science given indirectly:
Biological Castes and Caste System (core mines give +13, shaft mines +7, mines give +4, quarries +5, and lumbermills give +6), Bourgise (plantations give +1), Confederacy (pastures, plantations, and farms give +1) Planned (pastures and plantations give +1, manufacturing complexes give +11, factories give +8, and workshops give +3), Proletariat (lumbermills give +6 and workshops +2), State-Owned (vertical farms give +3 and farms give +2)
Ok. That's done.
Given the best outcomes (having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have +5 per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.
Factoring in upgraded traits, you can +30 per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 40, a 4x increase from the base and a 2x from non-upgraded.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15), and with upgraded traits, it would take 2.5 turns to complete (100 / 40). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 4x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.
Realistically, however, you can't have all the traits. Given a realistic outcome (Humble, Pious, and Naturalist), you can get a +5 per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). This the as the best non-upgraded aka no real difference.
Factoring in upgraded traits (Humble, Pious, and Organized II), you can get a +25 per city or 35 per city, a 3.5x increase from the base, and a 2.3x increase from non-upgraded.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 3.5x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.
Now let us get into the real meat of this,%!
Given both ideal and realistic outcomes (they're the same, having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have 25% per city or have * 1.25 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 12.5 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 18.75 rather than 15.
Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 50 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 43.75 rather than 35.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With 1.25x more aka 12.5 base instead of 10 base , it would take 8 turns (100 /12.5) instead of 10, a 1.25x increase ofc.
For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait of pure outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.25x more aka 18.75 instead of 15 , it would take 5 turns (100 / 18.75) instead of 10, a 2x increase over inefficient base , a 1.25x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .
Factoring in upgraded traits that give pure, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.25x more aka 43.75 instead of 35 , it would take 2.2 turns (100 / 43.75) instead of 2.8, a 4.5x increase over inefficient base , a 3x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 1.25x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.27x increase over inefficient upgraded trait .
Given both ideal outcomes (having all traits, factoring upgraded), you can have 40% per city or have * 1.4 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 14 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 21 rather than 15.
Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 56 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 49 rather than 35.
If you had a building that took say 100 to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 / 10). With 1.4x more aka 14 base instead of 10 base , it would take 7.1 turns (100 / 14) instead of 10, a 1.4x increase ofc.
For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.4x more aka 21 instead of 15 , it would take 4 turns (100 / 21) instead of 10, a 2.5x increase over inefficient base , a 1.4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .
Factoring in upgraded traits, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.4x more aka 49 instead of 35 , it would take 2 turns (100 / 49) instead of 2.2 for non-upgraded %, a 5x increase over inefficient base , a 4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 3.3x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.4x increase over inefficient upgraded trait .
Now, this is where horsehocky gets crazy. Let's factor in the civics.
Biological Castes, Planned, Universal Empire, Superhuman, Computation, Engineered, Energy Interdemionsal, Machine Rule, Instant, Post Borders, and Skilled Workers. With these civics picked, you can have 160% per city or have * 2.6 more , per in a city.
With the best and realistic outcomes of non-upgraded traits, that changes to 185% or 2.8 * more , per in a city.
If we factor in upgraded traits, it rises to 225% or 3.25 * more , per in a city.
For just civics, base rises from 10 base to 28 base .
For non-upgraded pure traits period and just civics, base rises from 15 base to 41 base .
For upgraded pure traits and just civics, base rises from 40 base to 106 base .
For civics and non-upgraded traits%, base rises from 10 base to 30 base .
For civics and upgraded% traits, base rises from 10 base to 34.5 base .
For civics, non-upgraded traits% and non-upgraded pure traits, base rises from 15 base to 44 base .
For civics, upgraded% traits, and upgraded pure traits, base rises from 50 base to 164.5 base .
This is just for ideal outcomes aka just for show.
Now we do the ultimate test. How many turns would it take to build every building in the mod per column in one city, with none of those buildings giving? We will answer this in this thread.
We will combine all the most realistic possible combinations (Humble, Industrious II, and Isolationist), meaning 11 pure per city * 2.8 more , per in a city, combining % traits, and % civics. That comes out to 30.8 per city.
It gets more complicated than that tho. There's a thing called trade routes. Let's just say act as a direct%, but you need a route. * that by 1.5 (all coming from civics and Industrious by the way). Comes out to 46.6 per city.
There are also improvements that give. And those are also modified by traits. So let's factor those in. Say there is in the vicinity of this city a core mine, a manufacturing complex, a hydro dam, and a vertical farm. All of those combined with civic bonuses come out to be +48. Adding that to our finalized per city comes out to 104.6 for this city. That is the baseline without buildings that modify or add to .
I love this mod so much for this reason. You can create threads like this and not be looked at funny.
EDIT: I think upgrades to traits add to the previous bonus, rather than merely replacing it, much like civics and cross traits. I can't confirm this tho.
The Great People Factory (ultra min-maxing
%):Civilized (+5
%, up to +25 % with upgrades), Glorious (+25 % with a state , up to +100 % with upgrades), Gluttuonus (+10 %), Idealistic (+25 %), Philpshoical (ofc, +75 %), Spiritual (+35 % with a state ), Careless (+10 %), and Meek (+10 %). Given the best outcome (you have all these traits, non-upgraded), you'll have a rate of 230 % or 2.3x more than avg.Realistically, however, the best is 135
% (Philpshoical, Spiritual, and Idealistic) or 1.35x more than avg.I'm counting out those that give
% when upgraded, not initially. If we count those (that being Anti-Clerical II +10 % without a state , Creative II +10 %, Crooked III +15 %, Financial II +10 %, Humantrain II 15 %, up to +40 % with upgrades, Megalomical II +10 %, up to +25 % with upgrades, Progressive II +10 %, up to +40 % with upgrades, and Zealous II +10 % with a state ), the best outcome changes from 230 % to 310 % non-upgraded or 3.1x more than avg.Given the realistic outcome, it changes from 135
% to 215 %, or 2.15x more than avg. This is also discounting traits that contradict, as that doesn't any sense to calculate them in the equation.And this not even half of it. We still have to do civics.
Civics:
Apotheosis (+50
% with a state ), Conrnciupia, or Eco Friendly, and Protocol (+25 %), Gelstal Mind or Demoarcy (+25 %, Theocracy with a state ), Post Borders (+10 %), Post Currency and Xenosemoitc (+5% %, +10 % overall), and Compulasury (+5 %, Reglious with a state ).In total with these civics picked, the best outcome changes from 310
% to 460 %, or 4.6x more than avg and the realistic outcome changes from 215 % to 265 %, or 2.65x more than avg.If we assume that
are born at an avg of 25 turns per game, assuming that does not change, and the game speed is Long (4000 turns), the number of turns that is needed for a great person to be born changes from 25 to 10.8 (for the best outcome minus other upgraded traits), 8.1 (for the best outcome and other upgraded traits), 18.5 (for the realistic outcome minus other upgraded traits), 11.6 (for the realistic outcome and other upgraded traits), 5.4 (for the best outcome, other upgraded traits, and civics), and 9.4 (for the realistic outcome, other upgraded traits, and civics).In other words, the number of great people born per game changes from 160 (4000 / 25), to 216.2 (4000 / 18.5), 344.8 (4000 / 11.6), 370.3 (4000 / 10.8), 425.5 (4000 / 9.4), 493.8 (4000 / 8.1), and 740.7 (4000 / 5.4).
Wow. That was fun. Let's move on.
Ultraprodcution aka The Factory Civ (ultra min-maxing +
and %):Pure production per city (non-upgraded traits): Humble (+1
, up to +3 with upgrades)Production efficiency per city (doing more than less, non-upgraded traits): Humble (+5
% in all cities, up to 15%, up to +3 with upgrades), Megalomical (+10% in the capital only), Pragmatic (+4% in all cities, up to +14% when upgraded), Preeminent (+5%, up to +50% when upgraded in the capital only), and Isolationist (+15% in all cities)Pure production given to citizens, integrated
, and nobles (non-upgraded traits):Naturalist (great artists give +1
) and Pious (great prophets give +3)Production trade efficiency per
(non-upgraded traits):Industrious (+30
%) and Negotiator (+20%, up to 60% with upgrades)Pure production given indirectly (non-upgraded traits):
Industrious (every 7
plot gives 8, mines give +4, shaft mines give +7, modern mines give +11, core mines give +13, early quarries give +5, quarries give +8, and stone tool workshops give +2), Nomad (wetlands camp now gives +2)Pure production per city (upgraded traits):
Anti-Clerical II (+1
), Charismatic II and III (+1, +2 with III), Expansive II and III (+1, +2 with III), Innovative II and III (+1, +2 with III) and Industrious II and III, (+3, +9 with III)Production efficiency per city (upgraded traits):
Charismatic II and III (+5
%, +10% with III, in all cities), Expansive II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Industrious II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Politician II and III and Revouintlary II and III (+5%, +15% with III, in the capital only)Pure production given to citizens, integrated
, and nobles (upgraded traits):Industrious III (citizens give +2
and great engineers give +4), Medical II (great doctors give +1), and Organized II and III (artists, celebrities, doctors, great admirals, great artists, great doctors, great hunters, great merchants, great military instructors, great sleuth, great spy, great statesmen, investigators, lawyers, merchants, military instructors, nobles, scientists, and spies give +1, up to +2 with III, android workers give +11, up to +12 with III, citizens, priests, and great scientists give +2, up to +3 with III, engineers give +3, up to +4 with III, and great engineers +4, up to +5 with III), and Politician II (great statesmen and nobles give +1), protective II and III (great military instructors and great admirals give +1)Production trade efficiency per
(upgraded traits):Stubborn III (+10
%)Pure production given indirectly (upgraded traits):
Industrious II (hydrocarbon well, mountain mine, and solar panels give +6
, early mountain mines give +2, shaft mines give +7, modern mines and manufacturing complexes give +11, factories and modern windmills give +8, hydro dams give +10, watermills give +4, windmills give +1, and offshore platforms give +1), Industrious III (geothermal factories and hybrid forests give +10, core mines give +12, tidal harnesses give +4, sea mills give +1, and extraction facilities give +5)Alright. Let's move on to civics.
Civics:
Pure production per city:
NONE!
Production efficiency per city:
Biological Castes, and Planned and Universal Empire and Superhuman (+20
%, +80% in total in all cites), Computation and Engineered and Galatic Federation (+15%, +30% in total for Computation and Engineered in all cites), Energy and Enduioma and Interdemionsal and Machine Rule and Instant and Post Borders and Regulated, and Skilled Workers (+10%, +80% in all cites), and Waste to Energy (+7% in all cites).Production trade efficiency per
:Centralized and Credit, Fiat Money, or Gold Standard, Guilds and Secured Borders or Virtual Citizenship (+5
%, +20% in total for Centralized, Gold Standard, Guilds, and Virtual Citizenship)Pure production given to citizens, integrated
, and nobles:NONE!
Pure production given indirectly:
Biological Castes and Caste System (core mines give +13
, shaft mines +7, mines give +4, quarries +5, and lumbermills give +6), Bourgise (plantations give +1), Confederacy (pastures, plantations, and farms give +1) Planned (pastures and plantations give +1, manufacturing complexes give +11, factories give +8, and workshops give +3), Proletariat (lumbermills give +6 and workshops +2), State-Owned (vertical farms give +3 and farms give +2)Ok. That's done.
Given the best outcomes (having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have +5
per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.Factoring in upgraded traits, you can +30
per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 40, a 4x increase from the base and a 2x from non-upgraded.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15), and with upgraded traits, it would take 2.5 turns to complete (100 / 40). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 4x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.Realistically, however, you can't have all the traits. Given a realistic outcome (Humble, Pious, and Naturalist), you can get a +5
per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). This the as the best non-upgraded aka no real difference.Factoring in upgraded traits (Humble, Pious, and Organized II), you can get a +25
per city or 35 per city, a 3.5x increase from the base, and a 2.3x increase from non-upgraded.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 3.5x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.Now let us get into the real meat of this,
%!Given both ideal and realistic outcomes (they're the same, having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have 25
% per city or have * 1.25 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 12.5 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 18.75 rather than 15.Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure
per city, you have 50 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 43.75 rather than 35.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With 1.25x more aka 12.5 base instead of 10 base , it would take 8 turns (100 /12.5) instead of 10, a 1.25x increase ofc.For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait of pure
outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.25x more aka 18.75 instead of 15 , it would take 5 turns (100 / 18.75) instead of 10, a 2x increase over inefficient base , a 1.25x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .Factoring in upgraded traits that give pure
, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.25x more aka 43.75 instead of 35 , it would take 2.2 turns (100 / 43.75) instead of 2.8, a 4.5x increase over inefficient base , a 3x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 1.25x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.27x increase over inefficient upgraded trait .Given both ideal outcomes (having all traits, factoring upgraded), you can have 40
% per city or have * 1.4 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 14 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 21 rather than 15.Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure
per city, you have 56 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 49 rather than 35.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 / 10). With 1.4x more aka 14 base instead of 10 base , it would take 7.1 turns (100 / 14) instead of 10, a 1.4x increase ofc.For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.4x more
aka 21 instead of 15 , it would take 4 turns (100 / 21) instead of 10, a 2.5x increase over inefficient base , a 1.4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .Factoring in upgraded traits, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.4x more
aka 49 instead of 35 , it would take 2 turns (100 / 49) instead of 2.2 for non-upgraded %, a 5x increase over inefficient base , a 4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 3.3x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.4x increase over inefficient upgraded trait . Now, this is where horsehocky gets crazy. Let's factor in the civics.Biological Castes, Planned, Universal Empire, Superhuman, Computation, Engineered, Energy Interdemionsal, Machine Rule, Instant, Post Borders, and Skilled Workers. With these civics picked, you can have 160
% per city or have * 2.6 more , per in a city.With the best and realistic outcomes of non-upgraded traits, that changes to 185
% or 2.8 * more , per in a city.If we factor in upgraded traits, it rises to 225
% or 3.25 * more , per in a city.For just civics, base
rises from 10 base to 28 base .For non-upgraded pure
traits period and just civics, base rises from 15 base to 41 base .For upgraded pure
traits and just civics, base rises from 40 base to 106 base .For civics and non-upgraded traits
%, base rises from 10 base to 30 base .For civics and upgraded
% traits, base rises from 10 base to 34.5 base .For civics, non-upgraded traits
% and non-upgraded pure traits, base rises from 15 base to 44 base .For civics, upgraded
% traits, and upgraded pure traits, base rises from 50 base to 164.5 base .This is just for ideal outcomes aka just for show.
Now we do the ultimate test. How many turns would it take to build every building in the mod per column in one city, with none of those buildings giving
? We will answer this in this thread.We will combine all the most realistic possible combinations (Humble, Industrious II, and Isolationist), meaning 11 pure
per city * 2.8 more , per in a city, combining % traits, and % civics. That comes out to 30.8 per city.It gets more complicated than that tho. There's a thing called trade routes. Let's just say act as a direct
%, but you need a route. * that by 1.5 (all coming from civics and Industrious by the way). Comes out to 46.6 per city.There are also improvements that give
. And those are also modified by traits. So let's factor those in. Say there is in the vicinity of this city a core mine, a manufacturing complex, a hydro dam, and a vertical farm. All of those combined with civic bonuses come out to be +48. Adding that to our finalized per city comes out to 104.6 for this city. That is the baseline without buildings that modify or add to .Let's say that each building costs 100
each and the X value of that doesn't change its costs. There are around 144 X columns in the tech tree. 144 * 1000 = 144000. The game speed we use is long so it's * 1.25. That comes out to be 180000. For the level of production we have (104.6), it would take 1720 turns in order to fully complete the entire tech tree full of buildings. Long has 4000 turns. That means you would only be 4.3% of the way to completion in your game and you would basically be done, building-wise.We've done it. We've conquered this beast.
Tech Rushing (ultra min-maxing +
and %)I'm back. I'm back to put this in motion.
Pure science per city (non-upgraded traits): Civilized, Minmalist (+1
, up to 3+ with upgrades), and Scientific (+1, up to 11+ with upgrades)Science efficiency per city (doing more with less, non-upgraded traits): Civilized, Innovative (+5
% in all cities, up to 15% with upgrades), Megalomical (+5%), Pragmatic (+4% in all cities, up to +14
% when upgraded), Preeminent (+5%, up to +50% when upgraded in the capital only), Minmalist (+5% in all cities, up to 15% with upgrades), and Scientific (+10% in all cities, up to 20% with upgrades)Pure science given to citizens, integrated
, and nobles (non-upgraded traits):NONE.
Science efficiency given to citizens, integrated
, and nobles (non-upgraded traits):Naturalist (great prophets and prists give +1
%), and Progessist (enginner give +1%)Science trade efficiency per
(non-upgraded traits):Industrious (+30
%) and Negotiator (+20%, up to 60% with upgrades)Pure science given indirectly (non-upgraded traits):
Progrissve (non-state
still give base )Pure science per city (upgraded traits):
Anti-Clerical II (+1
), Charismatic II and III (+1, +2 with III), Expansive II and III (+1, +2 with III), Innovative II and III (+1, +2 with III) and Industrious II and III, (+3, +9 with III)Science efficiency per city (upgraded traits):
Charismatic II and III (+5
%, +10% with III, in all cities), Expansive II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Industrious II and III (+5%, +10% with III, in all cities), Politician II and III and Revouintlary II and III (+5%, +15% with III, in the capital only)Pure science given to citizens, integrated
, and nobles (upgraded traits):Industrious III (citizens give +2
and great engineers give +4), Medical II (great doctors give +1), and Organized II and III (artists, celebrities, doctors, great admirals, great artists, great doctors, great hunters, great merchants, great military instructors, great sleuth, great spy, great statesmen, investigators, lawyers, merchants, military instructors, nobles, scientists, and spies give +1, up to +2 with III, android workers give +11, up to +12 with III, citizens, priests, and great scientists give +2, up to +3 with III, engineers give +3, up to +4 with III, and great engineers +4, up to +5 with III), and Politician II (great statesmen and nobles give +1), protective II and III (great military instructors and great admirals give +1)Science trade efficiency per
(upgraded traits):Stubborn III (+10
%)Pure science given indirectly (upgraded traits):
Industrious II (hydrocarbon well, mountain mine, and solar panels give +6
, early mountain mines give +2, shaft mines give +7, modern mines and manufacturing complexes give +11, factories and modern windmills give +8, hydro dams give +10, watermills give +4, windmills give +1, and offshore platforms give +1), Industrious III (geothermal factories and hybrid forests give +10, core mines give +12, tidal harnesses give +4, sea mills give +1, and extraction facilities give +5)Alright. Let's move on to civics.
Civics:
Pure science per city:
NONE!
Science efficiency per city:
Biological Castes, and Planned and Universal Empire and Superhuman (+20
%, +80% in total in all cites), Computation and Engineered and Galatic Federation (+15%, +30% in total for Computation and Engineered in all cites), Energy and Enduioma and Interdemionsal and Machine Rule and Instant and Post Borders and Regulated, and Skilled Workers (+10%, +80% in all cites), and Waste to Energy (+7% in all cites).Science trade efficiency per
:Centralized and Credit, Fiat Money, or Gold Standard, Guilds and Secured Borders or Virtual Citizenship (+5
%, +20% in total for Centralized, Gold Standard, Guilds, and Virtual Citizenship)Pure science given to citizens, integrated
, and nobles:NONE!
Pure science given indirectly:
Biological Castes and Caste System (core mines give +13
, shaft mines +7, mines give +4, quarries +5, and lumbermills give +6), Bourgise (plantations give +1), Confederacy (pastures, plantations, and farms give +1) Planned (pastures and plantations give +1, manufacturing complexes give +11, factories give +8, and workshops give +3), Proletariat (lumbermills give +6 and workshops +2), State-Owned (vertical farms give +3 and farms give +2)Ok. That's done.
Given the best outcomes (having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have +5
per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.Factoring in upgraded traits, you can +30
per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 40, a 4x increase from the base and a 2x from non-upgraded.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15), and with upgraded traits, it would take 2.5 turns to complete (100 / 40). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 4x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.Realistically, however, you can't have all the traits. Given a realistic outcome (Humble, Pious, and Naturalist), you can get a +5
per city. If the base production is 10, then that changes from 10 to 15, a 1.5x increase.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With non-upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). This the as the best non-upgraded aka no real difference.Factoring in upgraded traits (Humble, Pious, and Organized II), you can get a +25
per city or 35 per city, a 3.5x increase from the base, and a 2.3x increase from non-upgraded.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With upgraded traits and a realistic outcome, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). In other words, you would waste 1.5x fewer turns times building with non-upgraded traits and waste 3.5x fewer turns times building with upgraded traits.Now let us get into the real meat of this,
%!Given both ideal and realistic outcomes (they're the same, having all traits, non-upgraded), you can have 25
% per city or have * 1.25 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 12.5 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 18.75 rather than 15.Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure
per city, you have 50 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 43.75 rather than 35.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 /10). With 1.25x more aka 12.5 base instead of 10 base , it would take 8 turns (100 /12.5) instead of 10, a 1.25x increase ofc.For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait of pure
outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.25x more aka 18.75 instead of 15 , it would take 5 turns (100 / 18.75) instead of 10, a 2x increase over inefficient base , a 1.25x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .Factoring in upgraded traits that give pure
, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.25x more aka 43.75 instead of 35 , it would take 2.2 turns (100 / 43.75) instead of 2.8, a 4.5x increase over inefficient base , a 3x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 1.25x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.27x increase over inefficient upgraded trait .Given both ideal outcomes (having all traits, factoring upgraded), you can have 40
% per city or have * 1.4 more , per in a city. Or put it another way, you have 14 per city, rather than 10 per city given the base. If you factor in non-upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 21 rather than 15.Considering the best outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure
per city, you have 56 rather than 40. Considering the realistic outcomes for upgraded traits that give pure per city, you have 49 rather than 35.If you had a building that took say 100
to complete, with just base production, it would take 10 turns to complete (100 / 10). With 1.4x more aka 14 base instead of 10 base , it would take 7.1 turns (100 / 14) instead of 10, a 1.4x increase ofc.For both ideal and realistic non-upgraded trait outcomes, it would take 6.6 turns to complete (100 / 15). With 1.4x more
aka 21 instead of 15 , it would take 4 turns (100 / 21) instead of 10, a 2.5x increase over inefficient base , a 1.4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait .Factoring in upgraded traits, it would take 2.8 turns to complete (100 / 35). With 1.4x more
aka 49 instead of 35 , it would take 2 turns (100 / 49) instead of 2.2 for non-upgraded %, a 5x increase over inefficient base , a 4x increase over inefficient non-upgraded trait , a 3.3x increase over efficient non-upgraded trait , and a 1.4x increase over inefficient upgraded trait . Now, this is where horsehocky gets crazy. Let's factor in the civics.Biological Castes, Planned, Universal Empire, Superhuman, Computation, Engineered, Energy Interdemionsal, Machine Rule, Instant, Post Borders, and Skilled Workers. With these civics picked, you can have 160
% per city or have * 2.6 more , per in a city.With the best and realistic outcomes of non-upgraded traits, that changes to 185
% or 2.8 * more , per in a city.If we factor in upgraded traits, it rises to 225
% or 3.25 * more , per in a city.For just civics, base
rises from 10 base to 28 base .For non-upgraded pure
traits period and just civics, base rises from 15 base to 41 base .For upgraded pure
traits and just civics, base rises from 40 base to 106 base .For civics and non-upgraded traits
%, base rises from 10 base to 30 base .For civics and upgraded
% traits, base rises from 10 base to 34.5 base .For civics, non-upgraded traits
% and non-upgraded pure traits, base rises from 15 base to 44 base .For civics, upgraded
% traits, and upgraded pure traits, base rises from 50 base to 164.5 base .This is just for ideal outcomes aka just for show.
Now we do the ultimate test. How many turns would it take to build every building in the mod per column in one city, with none of those buildings giving
? We will answer this in this thread.We will combine all the most realistic possible combinations (Humble, Industrious II, and Isolationist), meaning 11 pure
per city * 2.8 more , per in a city, combining % traits, and % civics. That comes out to 30.8 per city.It gets more complicated than that tho. There's a thing called trade routes. Let's just say act as a direct
%, but you need a route. * that by 1.5 (all coming from civics and Industrious by the way). Comes out to 46.6 per city.There are also improvements that give
. And those are also modified by traits. So let's factor those in. Say there is in the vicinity of this city a core mine, a manufacturing complex, a hydro dam, and a vertical farm. All of those combined with civic bonuses come out to be +48. Adding that to our finalized per city comes out to 104.6 for this city. That is the baseline without buildings that modify or add to .I love this mod so much for this reason. You can create threads like this and not be looked at funny.
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