Great People

[CaPtivE]

I think it makes sense to have Great Philosophers, given their historical importance.

Not sure what particular benefits they would add, but I'll trust the devs with this. Maybe a combination or diversity of science and/or culture bonuses, or some unique benefits (similar to great merchants providing unique luxury resources)

 

[Xandinho]

I am particularly a fan of the idea of having great philosophers in the game, they could give you: inspirations, eurekas, governors promotions, envoys, and academic books, which would be books that you would put in universities and some wonders and grant specific political bonuses in which you could sell this knowledge to other civilizations.
The only problem is: which buildings would generate bonuses of great philosophers? University is obvious, but it is not enough, maybe amphitheater too?
I can think of some wonders that would give bonuses to great philosophers:
Apadana
Great Library
Oracle
Oxford University
University of Sankore
Parthenon (the most obvious, in my opinion).

 

[The googles do nothing]

I have thought that there should be a 'consolation' prize for not getting a Great Prophet.

 

[Galvatron]

I think maybe this is what great writers should be instead od another great work producer.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think it makes sense to have Great Philosophers, given their historical importance.

Not sure what particular benefits they would add, but I'll trust the devs with this. Maybe a combination or diversity of science and/or culture bonuses, or some unique benefits (similar to great merchants providing unique luxury resources)

The problem is, "Philosopher" covers a wide range of effects, most of them already covered by other categories of Great People. The game has to deal not with Thinking ("Lover of Thinking" is what philosopher means, after all) but with What You Are Thinking About: the concrete effects of the thinking.

So, Confucius (Kong Fu Tse) was a philosopher, but his thinking also started a religion and provided the basis for the education and administrative system that ran China for centuries. Plato, the "Father of Western Philosophy", also resulted in Neo-Platonism, which is purely a religion. Aristotle was a "Philosopher" but because his Thinking was about the sciences he provided the basis for both European and Arabic science for most of the Medieval Era.

So, most "Philosopher" effects in the game fall into already-existent categories.

What I think is needed in the Great People system is one more 'dynamic' effect and three more categories of Great People.

The new Great People are/would be:

Great Theologian - a use for all those Great Prophet points after you have your one and only useful Great Prophet. Historically, people who had great influence on the development of religions, but didn't found new ones. Folks like Augustine of Hippo, Bodhidharma, Colm Cille (Columba), Adi Shankara, Francis of Assisi, John Wycliffe, etc.

Great Minister - a Great Person that changes how and/or How Well your Civilization does things - a Super Governor, if you will. People like Solon of Athens, Alcuin, Hasdai ibn Shaprut, Tlacaelel, Thomas Cromwell, Axel Oxenstierna, Cardinal Richelieu, John Law, Benjamin Franklin, etc. These can have either specific or general effects, but in some cases and instances would have more influence than the Leader of the Civ.

Great Felon - the Random Event among Great People, whose 'bonuses', if any, come with strings attached. This is a place where the game can throw sticks into the smooth spokes of your Civ Wheel and force you to deviate from your well-trodden path to victory. Historically, people like Hassan-i-Sabbah (Founder of the Cult of Assassins) , Guy Fawkes, Stenka Razin, William Kidd, Mikhail Bakunin, Charles Ponzi - they cover probably the widest range of 'possible effects' of any Great People, but they would definitely keep your game from ever becoming Boring!

The new Dynamic Factor is that some Great People are great in several categories. What I'd like to see, then, is the chance to select where they will apply their Genius.
Some examples:
Thomas More - Great Minister OR Great Theologian
Leonardo da Vinci - Great Engineer OR Great Artist
Sebastien Le Prestre de Vauban: Great General OR Great Engineer
John Law: Great Minister OR Great Felon
Benjamin Franklin: Great Minister OR Great Scientist
George Marshall: Great General OR Great Minister
Walt Disney: Great Artist (Film) OR Great Merchant (Theme Parks)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The problem is, "Philosopher" covers a wide range of effects, most of them already covered by other categories of Great People. The game has to deal not with Thinking ("Lover of Thinking" is what philosopher means, after all) but with What You Are Thinking About: the concrete effects of the thinking.

So, Confucius (Kong Fu Tse) was a philosopher, but his thinking also started a religion and provided the basis for the education and administrative system that ran China for centuries. Plato, the "Father of Western Philosophy", also resulted in Neo-Platonism, which is purely a religion. Aristotle was a "Philosopher" but because his Thinking was about the sciences he provided the basis for both European and Arabic science for most of the Medieval Era.

So, most "Philosopher" effects in the game fall into already-existent categories.

I agree with this.
Thinking about new categories for Great People, the only ones I could come up with are:
Great Entertainers and possibly Great Aviators who could get GPPs based off of the Entertainment Complex/Water Park and Aerodrome respectively.
Not sure what Great Aviators would do other than have characters such as the, Amelia Earhardt, Charles Lindbergh, Baron von Richthofen (Red Baron) etc. I considered the Wright Bros. but then again maybe one of them makes more sense as a Great Engineer who gives the Eureka for flight. It would be anachronistic if an Aerodrome, which is because of Flight, gave points toward them.
Great Entertainers obviously can focus on amenities, but I could also see some bonuses toward culture, gold, and tourism. Think P.T. Barnum, Milo of Croton, Charlie Chaplin, Walt Disney. Is Elvis to recent? I mean he basically was in Civ 2.

Great Theologian - a use for all those Great Prophet points after you have your one and only useful Great Prophet. Historically, people who had great influence on the development of religions, but didn't found new ones. Folks like Augustine of Hippo, Bodhidharma, Colm Cille (Columba), Adi Shankara, Francis of Assisi, John Wycliffe, etc.

I'd rather have a rework of Great Prophets to be honest than having a whole new religious great person. My idea is Great Prophets would now have two charges, one to found a religion, and one ability based off of what they did in history. Once Reformed Church is unlocked the Great Prophet has the ability to Reform an already existing religion if they did not found one and is a majority in your cities.

Great Minister - a Great Person that changes how and/or How Well your Civilization does things - a Super Governor, if you will. People like Solon of Athens, Alcuin, Hasdai ibn Shaprut, Tlacaelel, Thomas Cromwell, Axel Oxenstierna, Cardinal Richelieu, John Law, Benjamin Franklin, etc. These can have either specific or general effects, but in some cases and instances would have more influence than the Leader of the Civ.

To make it sound less religious, maybe the name Great Diplomat would sound better?

Great Felon - the Random Event among Great People, whose 'bonuses', if any, come with strings attached. This is a place where the game can throw sticks into the smooth spokes of your Civ Wheel and force you to deviate from your well-trodden path to victory. Historically, people like Hassan-i-Sabbah (Founder of the Cult of Assassins) , Guy Fawkes, Stenka Razin, William Kidd, Mikhail Bakunin, Charles Ponzi - they cover probably the widest range of 'possible effects' of any Great People, but they would definitely keep your game from ever becoming Boring!

Interesting idea. How would one acquire a Great Felon?

Leonardo da Vinci - Great Engineer OR Great Artist

I'm fine with Leonardo da Vinci staying as a Great Engineer but he could also give Great Work of Arts in addition to his other ability.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I agree with this.
Thinking about new categories for Great People, the only ones I could come up with are:
Great Entertainers and possibly Great Aviators who could get GPPs based off of the Entertainment Complex/Water Park and Aerodrome respectively.
Not sure what Great Aviators would do other than have characters such as the, Amelia Earhardt, Charles Lindbergh, Baron von Richthofen (Red Baron) etc. I considered the Wright Bros. but then again maybe one of them makes more sense as a Great Engineer who gives the Eureka for flight. It would be anachronistic if an Aerodrome, which is because of Flight, gave points toward them.
Great Entertainers obviously can focus on amenities, but I could also see some bonuses toward culture, gold, and tourism. Think P.T. Barnum, Milo of Croton, Charlie Chaplin, Walt Disney. Is Elvis to recent? I mean he basically was in Civ 2.

Great Aviators was one I thought of but rejected because, while some of them are basically air-focused Great Generals (the Red Baron, by the way, may be iconic but his nephew Manfred von Richthofen was much more important to military aviation - he practically invented the techniques of Close Air Support for ground units in WWII) the rest are a combination of Great Explorers and Great Entertainers (Lindbergh was, like, the 64th person to fly across the Atlantic, but he did it solo and so made headlines - pure entertainment). Once you start including Great Explorers, where do you stop? I've got a list of over 30 potential Great Archeologists, for instance, but decided that was too much.

Great Entertainers is another category like Great Philosophers: most of them are really included in other categories. For instance, the Homeric sagas were declaimed in public - does that make Homer a Great Entertainer instead of a Great Writer? Technically, yes. Most of the Great Writing, in fact, was for Entertainment purposes, and a large number of Great Writers and Artists of all kinds were also quintessentially Showmen (and Women) - look at the money Writers like Sam Clemens, Charles Dickens, and Oscar Wilde made on 'lecture' circuits, or how the majority of the Great Musicians played or directed their music to the public - the Culture aspect of Great People already covers much of the Entertainment aspect.

Now, one aspect of 'Culture' is Theater, both 'live' since ancient Greece and Electronic in the last 100+ years or so. Civ VI's 'Rock Bands' creep into this, but I agree there should be a place somewhere for Great Performers that could include everyone from the Kabuki Masters of Japan to the familiar Mass Artists later - like Jenny Lind or Caruso in the Industrial Era, Baryshnikov in Ballet, Chaplin, Disney, or David Lean in film, etc later.
This could get quite intricate, given how much of Great Entertainment relies on earlier artistic work. A Great Performer could take an earlier work of Art, Music, or literature and make an entirely new work of art out of it - as the Iliad and Odyssey have been made into numerous movies, various musical creations into Ballets or become 'theme songs' for singers or performers.

I'd rather have a rework of Great Prophets to be honest than having a whole new religious great person. My idea is Great Prophets would now have two charges, one to found a religion, and one ability based off of what they did in history. Once Reformed Church is unlocked the Great Prophet has the ability to Reform an already existing religion if they did not found one and is a majority in your cities..

Grouping all Great Religious into one category is a much more elegant way of handling them. I confess Great Theologians came from JFD's great Mod which revamped almost everything about Great People and included Great Theologians as an expansion of Great Prophets. In that case, I'd be tempted to simply give all of them one title or the other. I rather like your idea of giving them all an attribute based on their historical background: that would be a neat way to include, say, Confucius's influence on government administration and education in China, or the Theologians who had talents that fall under the Great Artist category - like Luther's or Wesley's mass of hymns that should count as Great Music of a sort.

To make it sound less religious, maybe the name Great Diplomat would sound better?.

Great Minister is a compromise title because many of them have strictly Internal Effects where the Diplomat title wouldn't really apply. Since, on the other hand, many of the effects are related to the Governor Bonuses, or could be, they could be called Great Governors except that most of them affect the running of the entire state rather than a province or city.

Interesting idea. How would one acquire a Great Felon?.

Great Felons, obviously, would not normally be something you were trying to acquire, so they would appear by a combination of specific events and general accumulation of activities. Some would be purely random, since they are basically outlaws (Robin Hood, Ned Kelly, et al). Others would come from a variety of interacting Government types, economic, technological, social changes. It's hard to imagine John Law's South Seas Bubble that devastated the French economy being possible unless you have, in fact, started experimenting with Banking, stock markets and speculative investments. I would try to keep the Great Person system as similar as possible to the current one (until we start working on Civ VII, anyway, at which point All Bets Are Off) so would divide Great Felons up by Era and then within the Era have their appearance related to Social/Civic Policy, Government Type, and Technology within that Era.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Great Aviators was one I thought of but rejected because, while some of them are basically air-focused Great Generals (the Red Baron, by the way, may be iconic but his nephew Manfred von Richthofen was much more important to military aviation - he practically invented the techniques of Close Air Support for ground units in WWII) the rest are a combination of Great Explorers and Great Entertainers (Lindbergh was, like, the 64th person to fly across the Atlantic, but he did it solo and so made headlines - pure entertainment). Once you start including Great Explorers, where do you stop? I've got a list of over 30 potential Great Archeologists, for instance, but decided that was too much.

I agree that it might not be needed. My biggest concern is it would come even later than the Great Musicians, which already appear late. Speaking of Great Musicians, I think they need an Opera House building that would give them more slots. Make it mutually exclusive to the Broadcast Tower, whose primary focus could be getting tourism from the Rock bands while requiring you to purchase a Rock band in a city with a Broadcast Tower.

Now, one aspect of 'Culture' is Theater, both 'live' since ancient Greece and Electronic in the last 100+ years or so. Civ VI's 'Rock Bands' creep into this, but I agree there should be a place somewhere for Great Performers that could include everyone from the Kabuki Masters of Japan to the familiar Mass Artists later - like Jenny Lind or Caruso in the Industrial Era, Baryshnikov in Ballet, Chaplin, Disney, or David Lean in film, etc later.
This could get quite intricate, given how much of Great Entertainment relies on earlier artistic work. A Great Performer could take an earlier work of Art, Music, or literature and make an entirely new work of art out of it - as the Iliad and Odyssey have been made into numerous movies, various musical creations into Ballets or become 'theme songs' for singers or performers.

The idea of a performer is what I had in mind and if their primary function wasn't to write literature or music since that would put them in a Great Writer or Great Musician. While it's true that writing was used for entertainment in Ancient Greece, so were the early Olympics. In Rome they had the gladiator fights and the circuses. In the middle ages through the Renaissance jousting was also a form of entertainment. Then you have the modern circus created by P.T. Barnum or modern athletes, filmmakers etc later in history. At least that's where my idea of what a Great Entertainer could be from in Civ when I look at primarily the Entertainment Complex, and its buildings, as opposed to the Theater Square, not that there wouldn't be. In fact I did put down Thespis on my list as a Classical Era Entertainer which would give amenities to the amphitheater where placed and Charlie Chaplin could do the same but from the Modern Era from a Broadcast tower/Opera House like I mentioned above.

Grouping all Great Religious into one category is a much more elegant way of handling them. I confess Great Theologians came from JFD's great Mod which revamped almost everything about Great People and included Great Theologians as an expansion of Great Prophets. In that case, I'd be tempted to simply give all of them one title or the other. I rather like your idea of giving them all an attribute based on their historical background: that would be a neat way to include, say, Confucius's influence on government administration and education in China, or the Theologians who had talents that fall under the Great Artist category - like Luther's or Wesley's mass of hymns that should count as Great Music of a sort.

I made a list of all the current ones and what bonuses they would have and I do have to admit I could have nearly gave them all some Great Work to go with them but I stuck with only two of them: John the Baptist can create a relic and Ō no Yasumaro can create the Kojiki Great Writing.
As far as I know that's what he's most known for so I could find other abilities like Luther granting the inspiration for Reformed Church and combat strength against opponents who follow a different religion. I gave Confucius the ability to provide Temples with extra culture.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I agree that it might not be needed. My biggest concern is it would come even later than the Great Musicians, which already appear late. Speaking of Great Musicians, I think they need an Opera House building that would give them more slots. Make it mutually exclusive to the Broadcast Tower, whose primary focus could be getting tourism from the Rock bands while requiring you to purchase a Rock band in a city with a Broadcast Tower.

The potential Structures that could add either Culture or Amenity or both through Great Writers, Musicians, or Entertainers I would list as:
Amphitheatre - Great Writer, Great Entertainer (Orator or Actor)
Theater - Great Writer, Great Entertainer (Actor)
Concert Hall - Great Musician, Great Entertainer (Music)
Opera Hall - Great Musician, Great Entertainer (Music)
Stadium - Great Entertainer (Sports, Music, Rock Band)
Broadcast Studio - Great Writer, Great Musician, Great Entertainer (Music, Film)

Plus, of course, some Wonders would lend themselves to augmentation by Great Entertainers, like the Bolshoi or Sydney Opera House.

The idea of a performer is what I had in mind and if their primary function wasn't to write literature or music since that would put them in a Great Writer or Great Musician. While it's true that writing was used for entertainment in Ancient Greece, so were the early Olympics. In Rome they had the gladiator fights and the circuses. In the middle ages through the Renaissance jousting was also a form of entertainment. Then you have the modern circus created by P.T. Barnum or modern athletes, filmmakers etc later in history. At least that's where my idea of what a Great Entertainer could be from in Civ when I look at primarily the Entertainment Complex, and its buildings, as opposed to the Theater Square, not that there wouldn't be. In fact I did put down Thespis on my list as a Classical Era Entertainer which would give amenities to the amphitheater where placed and Charlie Chaplin could do the same but from the Modern Era from a Broadcast tower/Opera House like I mentioned above.

We have names of famous actors, orators, gladiators, sports figures ranging from Olympic Victors to chariot race winners from the Classical Era, plus singers, troubadours, Elizabethan actors and playwrights besides Shakespeare, so Great Performer lists can be derived for every Era from Classical onwards.
Drat! That means I have to go back into my 180+ page Timeline document and start adding Great Performers to the already bulging lists of Great Scientists, Writers, Engineers, Ministers, etc.

I made a list of all the current ones and what bonuses they would have and I do have to admit I could have nearly gave them all some Great Work to go with them but I stuck with only two of them: John the Baptist can create a relic and Ō no Yasumaro can create the Kojiki Great Writing.
As far as I know that's what he's most known for so I could find other abilities like Luther granting the inspiration for Reformed Church and combat strength against opponents who follow a different religion. I gave Confucius the ability to provide Temples with extra culture.

My Timeline has 45 Great Prophets or Great Theologians so far, including all the Great Prophets from the current game. The majority of them lend themselves to obvious and sometimes not-so-obvious Bonuses. My favorites at a glance:

Bodhidhama - Buddhist monk who brought Chan Buddhism to China and is credited with founding the Shaolin Monastery - so, can found a Monastery that produces a Warrior Monk at X intervals
Kobo-Daishi (Kukai) - Japanese Buddhist monk who founded the 'mantra' school of Buddhism and invented the Kana syllabary used to write Japanese, so could legitimately provide an on-going bonus to all your Libraries.
Colm Cille (Columba) - Irish abbot who converted the Scots to Christianity, founded the abbey on Iona which became a major repository of religious art and literature, so can found a Monastery with slots for Religious Art, Relics, or Great Works of Writing.
Tomaso d'Aquino (Thomas Aquinas) - Dominican friar and philosopher, wrote Summa Theologia, one of the most influential works of Christian theology/philosophy, so produces a work of Great Writing which can also go into a Religious Art slot and produces Religious as well as Cultural points.

 

[Xandinho]

I really like all of these ideas, and I would be very excited to see them in the game.
Great Theologian would make the religious game a lot more fun, I particularly find this victory more boring to try to go, it really needs an extra flavor.
Great minister or statesman would also be cool, maybe there could be a mechanism in which great ministers could become potential political opponents and leaders of revolts against the government?
Great Felon and Great Entertainer would also be a lot of fun, maybe they could include modern sportsmen in the category of great entertainers?
I agree that Great Aviators are not needed, air force doesn't make much of a difference in the big scheme of things, maybe we need the leaders to become more warmongers in the game late.
Something like an "academic book" that would generate specific bonuses and beyond just culture and tourism would be cool, imo. Examples of academic books: Republic of Plato, Discourse on the Method, Das Kapital...
Great cinema directors who would generate hit movies, a type of great work that in addition to generating culture and tourism, would generate amenities and gold. Or maybe great directors could turn great works of writing into films/documentaries? I always thought that Great directors could be a nice thing in the game.
I don't believe that Firaxis will make any major changes of this type yet in Civ6, but it is a good plan for Civ7, I really hope that some Firaxis employee is seeing this thread.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Bodhidhama - Buddhist monk who brought Chan Buddhism to China and is credited with founding the Shaolin Monastery - so, can found a Monastery that produces a Warrior Monk at X intervals

Since a Monastery is already a city-state improvement in the game, I just let him retire into a Warrior Monk, even if you didn't pick the belief.

Tomaso d'Aquino (Thomas Aquinas) - Dominican friar and philosopher, wrote Summa Theologia, one of the most influential works of Christian theology/philosophy, so produces a work of Great Writing which can also go into a Religious Art slot and produces Religious as well as Cultural points.

As a said I didn't want to overrun the abilities with Great Works so I made it to where he could give both faith and culture to University buildings, which I think goes historically well.

My favorite one that I did was for St. Francis of Assisi:
Unimproved tiles in this city with an appeal of Charming or Breathtaking provide +2 faith.

 

[Sirsquier]

I'd really like a little more randomness with great people. Here's what I was thinking on this:

Influential People: They spawn randomly in any civ and have their own AI. Examples as follows.

Cult Leader: Starts a Cult in a City this Cult has negative or positive effects (or both) on any city it spreads to.
Religious Reformer: Creates a new religion that shares some beliefs with religion of city.
Rebel Leader: Spawns Partisans and may create a new civ if conquers cities. (Can fight) (think about having Ganges Khan join mid game with your technology Yikes!)
Chosen One: Has a random AI of these four: War Lord (Spreads his new religion by taking cities and converting them to free cities), Messiah (Creates a new religion at random), Hero (Gives cities he is near more loyalty), Brave Soul (Fights barbarians near your cities)
Business Man: Tries to buy tiles and convert them to one of these five things: Entertainment Complex, Industrial Zone, Commercial Hub, Campus, Theater Square. If you sell him the tile they will produce 5 gold, increased city growth, and their normal bonuses. The same Business Man can buy tiles in multiple civs.
Speaker: Increases or decreases loyalty in cities he's in depending on his random AI (1-10 with loyalty to you). Increases culture in the city.
Teacher: Increases faith, science, or culture depending on specialty.

Examples of each of these:
Jim Jones (Cult Leader)
Martin Luther (Religious Leader)
William Wallace (Rebel Leader)
Jesus Christ (Messiah)
Muhammad (War Lord)
John Paul Jones (Brave Soul)
Paul Revere (Hero)
Donald Trump (Business Man)
Patrick Henry (Speaker)
Plato (Teacher)

Having these would throw the players off a little. I'd also love if great people could spawn randomly.