Great Prophet Points - just replace with faith?

[Stringer1313]

Great Prophet points are a little confusing. No one knows what happens to them after all the prophets are gone. Should they just be replaced with faith (i.e., faith leads to you GP, rather than a separate GP thing)? The min-max discussion in the Arabia thread (i.e., should arabia get holy sites anyway for the faith, even tho GPs are arguably useless to them) made me wonder about this.

 

[Siptah]

Older tooltips show that wonders in the renaissance (Mont St. Michel and another one) give Great Prophet Points and need you to have founded a religion. With Arabia's reveal, I consider them finally outdated and believe that GPP are not good for anything once you got a religion or all religions are founded.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Unless I am wrong, Great Prophet points only come from the Holy Site district. So I get the impression that once all the religions are founded that your Holy Sites just stop producing GPP but would still generate faith.

 

[Wolle68]

Unless I am wrong, Great Prophet points only come from the Holy Site district. So I get the impression that once all the religions are founded that your Holy Sites just stop producing GPP but would still generate faith.

There's also a policy and some wonders that give GPP. As Siptah said, some of these come after you've founded a religion.

It's all very confusing

 

[Firebug]

Having Great Prophets generated by Faith would actually slow down the religious game. You can generate Faith, then have to purchase a great prophet, then have to generate faith all over again just to get a missionary or inquisitor. Keeping the pace going allows the Religious Victory to be fun, rather then just a waiting game for the next Faith purchase.

And we've already seen Great Prophets that can extend to the renaissance, but that seems to be the cutoff point. Once you found a religion, you don't get another Great Prophet.

 

[Big J Money]

Older tooltips show that wonders in the renaissance (Mont St. Michel and another one) give Great Prophet Points and need you to have founded a religion. With Arabia's reveal, I consider them finally outdated and believe that GPP are not good for anything once you got a religion or all religions are founded.

Interesting. I take the opposite perspective and see this as evidence that Firaxis just hasn't shown us yet what GProPs are going to be used for in later eras, but they do have some use.

When I read the title of this thread I thought the OP was suggesting that we should be able to have GProPs automatically just convert to faith after a GPro is born.

 

[Mort_Q]

Interesting. I take the opposite perspective and see this as evidence that Firaxis just hasn't shown us yet what GProPs are going to be used for in later eras, but they do have some use.

When I read the title of this thread I thought the OP was suggesting that we should be able to have GProPs automatically just convert to faith after a GPro is born.

The could be used to promote or heal missionaries, for faith generating projects, or all manner of things we haven't seen.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The reason not to have Faith->Great Prophet is that your faith generation depends a lot on terrain and Pantheon you pick.

The only ways to get great Prophet points are
1. Build holy sites/Shrines/Temples... they all give the same number of Great prophet points (no adjacency bonuses)
2. Wild Cards
3. a few wonders


Now what should happen to GPP After..... I can see a few ideas

1. unlimited number of Great Prophets, but they get an additional ability for those who can't found a religion (because they already have, or the number of religions have run out, or they are Kongo's Leader)... so forming a Relic/triple promoted Apostle

2. once you found a religion extra Great Prophet points are converted into something else [maybe there is a (or multiple) policy card that does that (all Great Prophet points converted to culture/gold/faith/internal religious pressure/Apostles depending on which card you have)

 

[Siptah]

The reason not to have Faith->Great Prophet is that your faith generation depends a lot on terrain and Pantheon you pick.

The only ways to get great Prophet points are
1. Build holy sites/Shrines/Temples... they all give the same number of Great prophet points (no adjacency bonuses)
2. Wild Cards
3. a few wonders


Now what should happen to GPP After..... I can see a few ideas

1. unlimited number of Great Prophets, but they get an additional ability for those who can't found a religion (because they already have, or the number of religions have run out, or they are Kongo's Leader)... so forming a Relic/triple promoted Apostle

2. once you found a religion extra Great Prophet points are converted into something else [maybe there is a (or multiple) policy card that does that (all Great Prophet points converted to culture/gold/faith/internal religious pressure/Apostles depending on which card you have)

We've seen a 'no more prophets' screen. I admit it was in an early build and might have been just temporary, but to me it looks like no more prophets once all religions are founded.
What's wrong with them being useless after you got/didn't get a religion? I don't see a reason why they have to do something else besides the religion race. Relics would be nice, though!

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

It is a weakness with the holy district which is compensated for by having access to the earliest non domination victory.

You just need a single great prophet and you have the potential to win a religious victory, no other great person is nowhere near as potential as the great prophet.

 

[Redaxe]

I'm sure they'll come up with another purpose for Great Prophet Points - maybe allowing you to buy apostles or something.

The best thing for religion in Civ 6 is untethering Faith from Great Prophets.

It was never fair in Civ 5 that a terrain bias such as desert folklore start could make it so easy to spread a religion.

It also makes it very slow to start a religion off unless you do have an enormous source of faith.

 

[gunnergoz]

After all the religions are founded, it makes sense that to me the GPP would end...there's no more point to them. As a secularist the whole religious side of the game makes me queasy anyway, but I play it knowing the historical significance of religions. I do wish there was a "secular anti-religion" possible in the game, but in game terms that would pretty much play like another religion anyway (sigh.)

 

[Krajzen]

Are Prophets used for anything other than one-time foundation of religion? Because on civ analyst there is

Hagia Sophia
Requires: Education
Yield: +4 Faith, +2 Great Prophet points per turn
Effect: "Missionaries and Apostles can spread Religion 1 extra time."
Requirements: Must be built on flat land adjacent to a Holy Site district, and you must have founded a Religion."

http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ6_cities.html#wonders

??????

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Moved to Ideas & Suggestions

 

[Calouste]

I'm sure they'll come up with another purpose for Great Prophet Points - maybe allowing you to buy apostles or something.

The best thing for religion in Civ 6 is untethering Faith from Great Prophets.

It was never fair in Civ 5 that a terrain bias such as desert folklore start could make it so easy to spread a religion.

It also makes it very slow to start a religion off unless you do have an enormous source of faith.

I think that as well, the Great Prophet Points will spawn Apostles, considering they have the same functionality as additional Great Prophets had in Civ5, enhancing your religion and spreading it.

 

[BrokenSky]

Maybe after the last GP has been taken the GPP should convert into faith (including stored ones)? Best of both systems, right?

 

[Krajzen]

"No, and I already written in another thread why

I've realized religious race would look very sifferent this time.

In civ5 religious race was very random and speed of gaining prophet fluctuated wildly because there were many unpredictable factors of faith output - terrain, resources, natural wonders, AI order of taking pantheons, rising pantheon costs, what civs are on the map, stonehenge, religious ruin bonus, religious city states and lucky early quests, finally that stupid half random generation past faith threshold...Some civs were getting religion very early and others very late and faith output by the classical era could vary between 1 and as much as 20.
Meanwhile in civ6 you get prophets with GP points and the ways to get them are:
- holy site (1gppt)
- one per game stonehenge (only if you have stone and flat grass next to capital)
- one policy (+1) and one pantheon (+1) to boost GPP.

That's it. Early game GPP amount without stonehenge will usually differ between 1 (most civs, one holy site) and around 4 (city spam or pantheon/policy).

This should make religious race more equal, dramatic and ending quicker. Which is all good because randomness of that process in civ5 and fact there were always too late, dead religions (unable to spread) was silly. And that's all good news for Last Prophet because second-to-last religion should be founded by the early medieval (I hope)."

 

[KrikkitTwo]

"No, and I already written in another thread why

I've realized religious race would look very sifferent this time.

In civ5 religious race was very random and speed of gaining prophet fluctuated wildly because there were many unpredictable factors of faith output - terrain, resources, natural wonders, AI order of taking pantheons, rising pantheon costs, what civs are on the map, stonehenge, religious ruin bonus, religious city states and lucky early quests, finally that stupid half random generation past faith threshold...Some civs were getting religion very early and others very late and faith output by the classical era could vary between 1 and as much as 20.
Meanwhile in civ6 you get prophets with GP points and the ways to get them are:
- holy site (1gppt)
- one per game stonehenge (only if you have stone and flat grass next to capital)
- one policy (+1) and one pantheon (+1) to boost GPP.

That's it. Early game GPP amount without stonehenge will usually differ between 1 (most civs, one holy site) and around 4 (city spam or pantheon/policy).

This should make religious race more equal, dramatic and ending quicker. Which is all good because randomness of that process in civ5 and fact there were always too late, dead religions (unable to spread) was silly. And that's all good news for Last Prophet because second-to-last religion should be founded by the early medieval (I hope)."

Actually the religious race is Less equal... the Great Prophet is a Great Person and all civs compete for them.


So Civ 1 gets a great Prophet for 100 GPP*..
Civ 2 needs 200 GPP to get their Great prophet
Civ 3 will need 300 GPP
etc.

so for 7 religions in a large game, the last Religions will be medieval, possibly even early renaissance.

*actual amount differs but the point is the cost will increase so the last religion is much later.. even thought the Rate of getting GPP doesn't vary much, the cost of the GPP will.

[of course I sort of favor that, it basically rewards whoever starts the earliest on their religion, and spreads the religions out]