Great start - slow development

[jjohn]

Greetings Masters of War,

Attached is a map that I've replayed many times, but with much the same result: slow growth. The game's level is King with raging barbarian hordes. The initial location is great (four resource squares and a port to boot). Because this is a learning map, I started with only two other civs (Egyptian and Greek).

Slow builder map


However, I have found that growing this empire is difficult because the poverty of the surrounding land. There is a fairly good location just a few squares south that will net you silk and fishing. But then you really need to start hiking to find the next locations that will grow.

Typically, it takes me until 1AD to get monarchy + philosophy. That seems slow. By 1200AD, I might get gunpowder.

I find that a lose frontier cities to barbarians fairly regularly without 2-3 units in the city.

I've seen some remarkable feats of strategy on this board. How fast can you develop this empire? How fast can you get to Alpha Centauri?

I'm very curious to see or read the development steps you took to achieve rapid expansion and growth.

Thanks,

--Joe (Long time reader, first time poster)

 

[Banach]

Welcome to CFC Joe! I'll download the game tonight and give early landing a try. I'm sure somebody else can pick it up for early conquest or OCC, as I'm not very skilled at either of these. I always look forward to a new challenge. As far as losing frontier cities to Barbarians, there are three effective ways to handle barbarians on raging hordes -

1. Let them take the city and bribe it back (unattractive if infrastructure is present).
2. Use offensive units and positional warfare to stop them (Barbarians have weak defense). For a great example, check out the kill zones the Duke set up in The D+2, wraith (!) succession game two years ago. The picture is approximately 3/4 of the way down the page on post #53 here
3. Use diplomats to bribe one unit, then kill the others with it. This is attractive in games where one doesn't want to pay shield support for military units, i.e. Early landing.

One could also have city walls and a veteran defender or two, but the aforementioned methods tend to be easier to manage. Offense is the key to handling barbarians.

 

[jjohn]

Thanks for the reply! Sadly, I'm not new to Civ2 but I'm not as dedicated a player as others on this forum. I have combed over the War Academy several times and delighted in the Civ3 story in which one person posted a "lost game" (I think he was playing either Japan or Russia) only to have another person snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. It was a marvelous display of tactics, guile and some good fortune.

It may be that in the map I posted which only has a two other civs, that slow growth is inevitable. I have noticed that conflict with other civs produces many positive affects on the player's civ.

Anyway, I thought I post a series of saved games from the map I posted yesterday. I actually thought I was doing better until I noticed it was 250AD and the Egyptians snatched Philosophy before I could!

Eventually I'll just move on, but I think that my inability to develop this map effectively highlights a more general deficiency in my tactics. I'd like to figure out what that is.

 

[Banach]

Alright Joe, I looked at your games, and played the game myself up to 1200 AD, had a lot of fun. Currently researching railroad with an empire of 75 Cities. There are just a few pointers you need to clean up your expansion game -

1. Don't build so many defenders. On deity, I almost always build a warrior first out of martial law necessity, but this being a King game, the first three citizens are automatically content, so I would either build just a warrior or go straight to settlers. If Barbarians are a concern, build horsemen or diplomats instead! much more effective way to handle them, plus you can get units! I probably bought back at least a dozen cities over the course of the game so far from barbarians, and bought dozens of barbarian units. Many of my cities only had a diplomat as a defender for quite a long time.

2. Improvements - Because of the happiness state at this level, you don't need to build a temple so early in your SSC. Focus on rapid expansion to begin with (by which I mean settlers). Actually, in general, I build very few improvements early on. Just the odd temple here or there. I focus on getting trade routes set up first.

3. Exploration - There are several purposes for exploration, but the first thing to consider is city placement. You had many units exploring, but they were very far away from the home country, while many locations close to your cities remained unexplored. The couple units you send out to begin with should be scouting nearby your existing cities for new city locations. This also prevents barbarians from sliding out of the black areas and sneak attacking your cities.

That should be plenty to get you started with. If you want a detailed explanation of the general expansion strategy I used to play this game, I'll be happy to share, just let me know. On another note, the lack of other civs nearby isn't necessarily an expansion problem, but it does somewhat cripple trade (As does the enormous land mass).

Good luck gaming!

 

[jjohn]

Thanks for the tips, Banach. I'll have a look at your map and try to break my need for security. Certainly, I should move whatever defensive units I have outward into the frontier cities as a way to manage my defense budget. I have always known that the key to Civ2 is relentless expansion. I guess I just need to keep repeating that to myself.

I'll give one more go at this map.

Thanks again for taking the time to set me straight.

--Joe

BTW, I also have Civ3 and Alpha Centauri. Civ3 just takes too durn long to play; it almost becomes work. That's not good! AC and Civ2 both keep pulling me back in.

 

[jjohn]

Reviewing your saved games, Banach, I noticed your aggressive taxation policy that favors happiness and science over raw income. After you get Democracy, this policy seems to pay off hansomely. I'll be pouring over these games more in the future.

Thanks.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

One of the keys to rapid expansion is lack of security. Loss of early cities is not a disaster. Strategically you are better off recovering from a few losses here and there than trying to secure every city.

I used to play that way. I would build a barrack in my third or fourth city and start producing vet Phalanx for all my other cities.

 

[la fayette]

jjohn,
I have just played your map and I have decided to divide my game into chapters in order to make this some sort of practical strategy guide (not at all the same kind as the one written by Peaster).
Here is how it works:
Each chapter has an objective. I post my savegame here, with a few details and pieces of advice. You (or anyone else willing to improve his gameplay) play until you reach the objective, which allows you to compare what you did and what I did and eventually discuss what you would like to discuss.

 

[la fayette]

Chapter one: "4 cities"

In the very early game your top priority must be to expand quickly. One city, your capital, must be protected by a warrior after 3250BC. It is "forbidden" to build roads (never more than 1 road/city), warriors (except 1 or 2 who go scouting in order to find new city sites; they won't tip huts before Monarchy, since we don't want to run the risk of delaying Monarchy by getting off-path techs), and of course any kind of improvement.
Summary: you build settlers ASAP and they settle ASAP.

 

[la fayette]

Chapter 2: "Monarchy"

After you have built 4 cities (and even sooner than that in some games), your priority is to switch to Monarchy (because it is much more efficient than Despotism).
A guy named La Fayette has written a guide to early Monarchy, named the "3 arrows strategy" (it was in fact my first post to Apolyton, almost 5 years ago ).
To make it simpler, what you must do is take great care of trade arrows (preferably 3 arrows/city, since this gives you 2 beakers + 1 gold, with the science slider at 60%, max under despotism) and refrain from tipping huts until you come to researching Monarchy.
You must then take into account the so-called "oedo year" (many strong players shed tears when he (oedo) discovered it, since they had been researching all kinds of complicated formulas, and he found out that it was as simple as this: "every 4th year you can change government with minimal period of Anarchy" = 3850BC, 3650BC, and so on = you just switch one turn sooner).
I say "take the oedo year into account" because if you hurry up and discover Monarchy 3 turns before you can switch efficiently, it's a waste .

 

[la fayette]

Chapter 3: "Marco Polo"
In almost any game, Marco Polo's Embassy is by far the most important early wonder: if you feel like conquering your neighbours, you must know where they are, and if you feel like sending a Space Ship to Alpha Centauri, this requires lots of trade, and you must also know where your neighbours are if you intend to trade with them .
Many players start building wonders very early (as soon as they have got the required tech). I don't, because I consider that the one and only efficient means to build a wonder is to build caravans (namely 4 caravans for most ancient wonders) and send them to the city where you intend to keep the wonder.
Therefore, my top priority after Monarchy is to research Trade (except when there is a nasty warmonger nearby or a lot of grassland to explore = I then research Horseback Riding before Trade) and start building 4 settlers who will turn into caravans when Trade will be discovered (and those 4 caravans will give me Marco ASAP).

 

[jjohn]

Wow, La Fayette. Your effort is appreciated. I'll have a look. I noticed that by replaying the same map, civ2 begins to resemble chess in that you know the strategic locations but the struggle becomes to get there without comprimising your defense.

I'll have a look shortly.

Thanks again.

--Joe

 

[Banach]

jjohn,

Regarding my T/S/L settings - I always set 40/60/0 in despotism and 30/70/0 in monarchy. I have heard of the powers of a celebrating monarchy but haven't embraced this strategy in any of my games yet (aside from when my SSC gets the hanging gardens, which makes celebration there that much easier). In Republic, my settings vary widely, but I usually initially set 80% Luxuries right after the switch for rapid celebration, and then adjust back down after five or so turns to the minimum which keeps my cities in order (typically 30-40%). The remainder is usually devoted to science, as you mentioned, since caravans bring in plenty of gold at this point (I was only trading domestically, but caravans setting up routes with the SSC brought in enough gold, as I wasn't rushing things really anywhere aside from the SSC). After I acquire Democracy, I usually set the Luxury at 30% or 40% for the remainder of the game to support continual growth through We love the President Day. This is one of the greatest strengths of Democracy. I split the remainder between science and taxes for the rest of the game. (Incidentally, landed on AC in 1637 AD).
That being said, people tend to be all over the place on these settings depending on their style of play, and many different strategies can be successful. Solo's Early landing guide advocates 0/100/0 for most of the game, generally maximizing science, and not using luxuries to keep people happy. Starlifter, on the other hand, used 70/0/30 or 60/0/40 for most of his games, picking up all the science with caravans/freight. Any of these strategies can be successful, but there are a few common threads amongst all of these strategies -

1. Trade. Developing a good trade system will vastly improve your gameplay provided that you're not an early conquest player (although my understanding is that some early conquest players use the more demanded commodities to get bribing money). The payoff for good trade is staggering, and can be read about in any of Starlifter's old articles (see, for instance, The Power Democracy . Trade can bring in tons of science and money, which is why one can be so flexible on the T/S/L settings.

2. We love the President Day - Correct use of this, whether it be continual or periodic, will allow you to expand at a tremendous rate, as a celebrating city can build settlers/engineers non stop. Mid-way through the game, a high production celebrating city can pump out one every turn, and correct use of this allows democracies to perform what Andu Indorin has termed hyper-expansion. This is also discussed in the above link (written by Andu Indorin, using many of Starlifter's old writings as well as his own ideas). (Of course I'm assuming you're in a republic or democracy)

For a contrasting view to Starlifter's 70/0/30 T/S/L setting, read Solo's early landing guide here .

Additionally, if you're looking for an idea of how different a game Early conquest is, read Peaster's Guide to Early conquest, available for download here . I don't play for early conquest because I have a taste for longer games and building up a large civilization. There are, however, many skilled early conquest players around here, as can be seen by reviewing recent GOTM's.