Great wall rush

[Romegypt]

i was thinking that I liked the great wall. A lot. So much so, that I now rush it by getting the wheel and one tech that lets me hook up one of the resources near me and then masonry. hen I rush Judaism and then play normally from there.
So i wanted to know. Does anyone else rush for the great wall? It works pretty well for me. I almost always play Catherine of Russia on noble, but I am planning on moving the the next difficulty soon.

 

[Izuul]

Probably a bad move the majority of the time on the higher difficulty levels, but you can really do whatever you want on the lower diffs... and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[coanda]

Fogbusting is often cheaper. Basic idea is that barbarian units will not spawn on any visible squares, nor will they spawn within 2 tiles of a unit (a 5x5 box centered around it). So if you just place a handful of warriors at strategically chosen spots, you can often box out land so there is literally nowhere barbarians can spawn.

Another common alternative is just to get a couple chariots or axes. While it may cost more in the long run, it saves you hammers in the short run... which means you get more cities and more production, and have a stronger economy which can easily handle the cost of replacing any chariots/axes you may lose.

As far as rushing Judaism... there's some debate over the utility of early religions on this forum. My view has been and remains that making good use of an early religion is harder than making good use of early worker technologies, so for new players looking to improve I advise avoiding the three early religions. If you really want a holy city of your own (and can't easily conquer one), you should have no trouble getting first to CoL, Theology, or Philosophy off a great person bulb or the Oracle.

 

[The Oz-Man]

Judaism (and its cousins Theology and Divine Right) are so off the beaten path that it's almost always more worthwhile to trade. I hardly ever research Theology on my own unless I plan on building the AP. Monotheism is a high-priority tech for the AI, so you can almost always trade for it.

If you really want a religion, it's usually better play to gun for the ones that come from useful techs. Code of Laws not only gives you Confucianism but also Courthouses and the Caste System civic. Philosophy is equally strong, with the Pacifism civic and a path towards some of the game's most powerful techs (Liberalism and Nationalism). These are techs with utility beyond the religion they give you.

If you want an early holy city, the best way to get it is to take it through military means. So you got beaten to Judaism by Isabella? That's not a problem your Macemen can't solve.

 

[Romegypt]

The problem with me is that I don't build many military units early on and don't like to. a few scouts and some archers/maybe 1-3 melee/mounted units but I don't build that many till I prepare for war. As for divine right being better to trade I disagree very much. If you trade it it is highly unlikely that you will get the spiral minaret wonder (+2 gold per state religion building). Paper for university of sankore is great as well (+2 science per SR building.)
Also you may be able to get two religions, which leaves fewer AIs to declare religious wars and leaves more open to conversion by me.

 

[rah]

I don't build many military units early on and don't like to.

Fortunately at the level you're playing you have the option not to.
As you go up in levels, it no longer becomes an option.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Divine right is a HORRIBLE tech to self-research. The Spiral will net you what... 20? 30 gpt at most? For all those hammers you spent building the wonder and all the religious buildings? Just to go obsolete with computers? Pass.

Know what I'd rather do? Head toward military tradition, build stack of cuirs, macemen, and siege, and then go take other civ's gold from them.

 

[ahcos]

Sometimes Divine Right is the only tech the AI doesn't have at the point around Liberalism, and if you want to trade to alot of people, it can be okay to research it. Although those games are very, very rare, i had one and i know that TMIT once lib'd DR.
For learning purposes, avoid DR like the plague, it'll only contribute to your tradelimit and do nothing for you essentially.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Although honestly if you're halfway good, in Noble you'll be researching assembly line while the rest of the world is still barely figuring out the miracle of gunpowder. So in that case, sure, self-research DR all you want. Otherwise, no. Just, no.

 

[The Oz-Man]

Shoot, if I chill out on a Noble map at all I reach AL maybe one time out of twenty--and that's usually if I need to storm another continent. Even then, Cavs (and Airships at most) will get the job done most of the time. And I don't consider myself halfway good at all.

I like the Minaret under very, very specific circumstances. In my Ramesses no-specialists-but-priests game it netted me a ridiculous amount of cash, but that's because I was building Temples to run the only specialists I could run per my own rules. In that case, it was absolutely worth the hammers.

And don't forget, and this is a key point a lot of low-level players forget: you don't have to build a wonder to get it. Should you build the Spiral Minaret, or should you divert your research to Military Tradition (available about the same time), build a dozen Cuirassiers, and have them go get the Spiral Minaret for you? I know which one I'd pick, and the answer is the one that's liable to get me five or six other wonders that aren't worth building (Hagia Sofia, Angkor Wat, AP, etc.) as well.

 

[coanda]

And don't forget, and this is a key point a lot of low-level players forget: you don't have to build a wonder to get it.

A point they can be forgiven for forgetting, because on low levels you do have to build a wonder yourself to be confident of getting it in reasonable time. I've seen people post 1000AD and later saves in which The Great Library was still available on Noble.

That said... Spiral Minaret is not the most stellar wonder. First you have to pick up Divine Right, which is a moderately pricey tech, one that the AIs value relatively highly, and a tech that comes at the same time as Renaissance warfare starts to become a big priority, and if you don't want that Corporation beelines start being attractive. If you can bulb it, it can be worthwhile because you've got a good chance of getting it as a monopoly tech then, which gives you good trade leverage.

Then once you've got Divine Right, you need to build Spiral Minaret. Unless you're lucky enough to be IND or have Stone, it's a hefty chunk of change to build it (you could get a half-dozen cannon for the same cost, or about 1/3 of the total costs you'd need for a cannon + musket drafting war). And unless you're SPI or already are getting state religion building boosts from AP, UoS, and/or Sistine, you probably don't have that many temples/monasteries/cathedrals anyways.

Don't get me wrong. It's no Chichen Itza; SM has some really good situations in which it's definitely worth building.* But there are also many games in which even if you were given Divine Right as a gift you still wouldn't want to waste time building the Minaret.

*Example: It is a not-uncommon situation in cultural games to have enough cities for 3 state-religion cathedrals, and also have state religion monasteries in those three cities. If you have a shot at Divine Right and SM in this case, it can often make sense - the extra holy city means you're guaranteed another set of cathedrals, the extra income from Spiral Minaret can let you push the culture slider up a bit higher when you shut off research.

 

[Romegypt]

Yes, well sometimes I also build wonders because I've built all the buildings and there are particular AIs that would do quit well with them. I build temples and monestaries quit a lot and have gotten around 12 cities on average. sometimes more sometimes less (I'm assuming that's an average amount of cities). Until I get communism I need the SM to get me whatever gold I can.
And capnvonbaron, not everyone is as good as you are

 

[Chuwe3y]

To be better, u have to change your tactics. I once was a builder but everything changes later on. Right now I'm still hanging for immortal difficulty but the only reason is the battle mechanics changes each difficulty unless I'm just unlucky. Ai will plot on u faster depening who u r near (ex.monty) so building wonders/unnecessary buildings can backfire. On Immortal, diplomacy is crucial and warfare is a must unless u want a boring game. People here r only giving u advice as we all have been Nobles player.

 

[Culture Bomb]

Spiral Minaret would be good if it produced all the extra gold in the Spiral Minaret city - then you could put all the gold multiplying buildings there and make a lot of money from it. But as the gold is produced in the cities with the religious buildings, it's much harder to profit from it.

 

[coanda]

@Romegypt... I'm going out on a limb here, but it sounds to me like you're trying to rely on holy cities and spiral minaret to pay upkeep. It might help you a lot to recognize that paying upkeep through turning down the research slider is normal. I'm pretty sure I spend more time below 50% slider than I spend above that mark. Half of 200 commerce spent on research is better than all of 80 commerce (plus specialists can help a lot with boosting research while at a low research slider).

 

[Kid R]

Does anyone else rush for the great wall?

The Gwall rocks, but it is a big risk to try for on Immortal. I will attempt it if ALL of the following are true.

(1) BFC stone or marble so I'm getting masonry anyway. Not going to tech it just for the wall. If it's BIDL before I even start it that's just wasted tech which hurts early.

(2) Can't fogbust safely with say 4 or 5 units. No barb issues on a nice little peninsula.

(3) Food tech in the bag and plenty of improved tiles. Because of this and (2) requiring scouting I am not even thinking about GWall till about turn 15-25.

(4) I can hook stone, or have BW + enough trees and workers to do the job V quick. Spending 15 turns trying and failing could be game over - it has to be < 10, then it's still possible to survive and enjoy the failgold.

 

[Romegypt]

I rely more on cottages to pay my upkeep and expand quickly at the start, so my slider is way down there.
Today I played a debug map (I think what it does is it takes random scripts and puts them together not sure) and ended up with a 2 player map filled with eleven people
winning so far. ahead by 2000. On noble, and have killed like, six empires. I have some screenshots.

Can someone give me instructions has to how to upload the screenshots?

 

[Fibonacci1123]

Besides its timing, I have two issue with the Great Wall on Monarch/Emperor.

First, I find while it saves on troops for anti-barb duty it doesn't completely eliminate the need for them. You still need to escort settlers. Also, it does nothing about the barbs who brilliantly settled on top of the only gold on the continent .

Second, the GSpy points it generates are an issue. If you want a GSpy for an Espionage Economy, it is great. Otherwise, you cannot safely generate a GP in the GWall city for the rest of the game. Since you often have to build the GWall in your capitol, this can be a serious limitation. Also, you just researched an expensive tech (Masonry) and put 75-150 into the GWall. You now have a deadline for your first GScientist. You have 32 turns to research Writing (an even more expensive tech), build a 90 library, and commit 2 members of your tiny civ to generating a GScientist. While you usually should be running scientists early, the GWall reduces your flexibility.

 

[bhavv]

Ooooh, I just had an idea. Divine Right should give a free tech like Liberalism. I'm gonna put that in my mod.

 

[Jet]

^ Or how about a free great prophet?

... I dunno, though. More one-shot free stuff isn't where it's lacking. Long-term utility is where it's lacking...