Grigori and Luonnotar

Mesix

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I quoted this from the bug thread, but thought that it was more appropriate to make a new thread for this discussion instead of posting this in the bug thread.

Luonnotar can no longer build the Altar. I know, I know: It doesn't make much sense that the most thematic way for the Grigori to win the game is nearly impossible for them to do. I don't like it either, but it keeps Cassiel from doing an altar Rush as soon as the unit becomes available. Not THAT hard to get 11+ level units to burn for the Altar...

What is there were some sort of mechanic that allowed Grigori adventurers to become GP of different types? Instead of upgrading your adventurer into a hero, you could sacrifice him to become a prophet to build the Altar, and engineer to finish a wonder, etc. Perhaps the various GP upgrades could be limited to certain technologies or a unique building of some kind so that the adventurers don't turn into a pick your GP type (although you would be sacrificing a hero to get a GP, so maybe not too overpowered).

Another idea would be to make Luonnotar units with the hero promotion able to build the Altar. Adventurers could be upgraded to Luonnotar units for this purpose without making the standerd Luonnotar units that are built a game breaking mechanic. There could also be a random event of some kind that has the potential to grant a Luonnotar unit the Hero promotion.

Perhaps the two ideas could be combined. Luonnotar units with the hero promotion could both build the Alter, and be sacrificed to produce effects similar to GP (although not become actual GP). For game balance purposes, rushing construction, researching techs, and spreading culture could be nerfed so that they are not as strong as standard GP that must spawn from specialized cities.

Here is another idea. If an adventurer is upgraded to a Luonnotar unit, he should be able to settle in a city (like other GP) and produce adventurer points for the player. There is a lack of buildings that produce adventurer points right now, and this would allow the player another method to boost GP points for the creation of adventurers. Maybe the Altar of Luonnatar could produce adventurer points for the Grigori instead of the standard Prophet points.
 
What? You want to sacrifice you're powerful, level 11 heros for the sole purpose of making a new, level 1 adventurer unit 300 turns later? I'm not sure I really understand your reasoning here.
 
I don't think so.

Hmm, I just got a crazy idea. What if the Luonnotar were no longer buildable/upgradeable, but were made into a Gregori UU of a Great Prophet?
 
What? You want to sacrifice you're powerful, level 11 heros for the sole purpose of making a new, level 1 adventurer unit 300 turns later? I'm not sure I really understand your reasoning here.

I see your point. Perhaps sacrificing a hero luonnotar for extra GP points is not such a great idea...perhaps just settled adventurers (that have not been upgraded to heroes yet). A settled adventurer could give +1 GP for adventurers.
 
I think it would need too be more than +1. A normal specialist grants +3 specialist points for its great person type. Since there aren't many sources of Adventurer GPP (especially in the early game), I'm thinking a settled adventurer should probably produce at least 2. It should have other Boni too, like +3 culture (since the lack of religion limits the ways the Grigori can get culture) and maybe +1 or 2 xp for units built in the city.

I'm surprised I hadn't thought of giving the the Grigori a new Great Specialist (Especially since these don't show up if not present, so wouldn't clutter the screen like the old Vampiric govennor Calabim specialist did). I think I'll go ahead and add a "Local Legend" great specialist now. :)
 
I think it would need too be more than +1. A normal specialist grants +3 specialist points for its great person type. Since there aren't many sources of Adventurer GPP (especially in the early game), I'm thinking a settled adventurer should probably produce at least that amount. It should have other Boni too, like +3 culture (since the lack of religion limits the ways the Grigori can get culture) and maybe +2 xp for units built in the city.

I'm surprised I hadn't thought of giving the the Grigori a new Great person specialist (Especially since these don't show up if not present, so wouldn't clutter the screen like the old Vampiric govennor Calabim specialist did). I think I'll go ahead and add this now. :)

Cool...let me know how it comes out.

Here are some thoughts...

I think +1 GP point per adventurer would be fine (Philosophical trait makes it +2)

Happiness modifiers from religion are also not as prevalent with the Grigori. Perhaps +1 happy per settled adventurer.

The Altar of Luonnater could affect settled adventurers for the Grigori, making them produce estra GP points, culture, and production with higher levels of the Altar.

I like the idea of bonus xp for units in the city, but +2 might be a bit much (since multiple adventurers would stack along with buildings and civics).
 
and maybe give the GC the same ability ..
would you be less entranced into becoming an adventurer if Nelson telling stories in all taverns than if... Dr Livington or Laurence of Araby did it ??

maybe the grigori could settle into 'local legend' : +2 adv gpp, +1 Happy, +2 culture (with the following reasonning : local legend increase pride in the civ (happy), knwoledge of the civ (culture) and youngs are pushed to try adventure.
 
I had already added the Great General specialist from Warlords/BtS and let Great Commanders be settled as them (they still provide +2 xp, no yields, no commerce, no GPP). I wouldn't want Great Generals to be able to settle as "Local Legends" because that would mean that any civ would be able to get Adventurers, not just the Grigori. (I could make adventurers a Great Commander UU if I wanted, possibly starting with the Great commander promotion)

The xml doesn't have a tag for adding happiness (and I certainly don't have the skill to make such a tag, as it would involve the SDK), so I made Local Legends add +1 xp, +2 Adventurer GPP, and +3 culture.

The BuildingInfos.xml doesn't have a way to change the amount of GPP granted by specialists (if it did, then I probably would have implemented by earlier idea of adding adventurer GPP to Grigori Citizen specialists, probably +1 per citizen in all cities from the palace and +1 in each particular city from the Adventurer's Guild/Grigori Tavern), so I can't easily make the Altar of the Luonnotar improve them (although I could make it increase their commerce/yields, or I could make adventurers also be a Grigori UU for Great Prophets if I wanted to)
 
MC : may one day you make a mod-mod with all your modifications ???

you always speak of those, it should be interesting to try them.

or maybe you have already done one.
 
Since you and Mesix asked, I'll probably release a modmod sometime this weak. There are still a couple of things not working the way I want them to right now that I'd like to fix first.
 
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