Grigori Questions

[Arumath]

I've been playing a game as the Grigori for a couple days now and loving it but I have a couple questions that I haven't been able to find an answer to.

1) Luonatars, as I understand it you have to have strength of will and a unit has to be level 6 or better and it can be any unit. I have numerous units that should be candidates but I can't seem to upgrade them. Thinking maybe upgrading wouldn't work in a captured city I sent one of my adventurer's back to the homeland no go. I tried going to another city that had difrent buildings still no upgrade option. What am I missing?

2) My second question has been answered to some degree elsewhere but I am sitll a bit confused. I don't totally understand how the great person system works that is probably part of my problem. In my current game I have gotten 5 adventurers and a great commander before popping my world spell. I built a few wonders trying to keep them out of the capitol as much as I could. When i cast Ardor I quickly got 4 great people only one of whom was an adventurer. Is there a way to not pollute the great person pool besides just not building wonders?

 

[Buckwild]

I've been playing a game as the Grigori for a couple days now and loving it but I have a couple questions that I haven't been able to find an answer to.

1) Luonatars, as I understand it you have to have strength of will and a unit has to be level 6 or better and it can be any unit. I have numerous units that should be candidates but I can't seem to upgrade them. Thinking maybe upgrading wouldn't work in a captured city I sent one of my adventurer's back to the homeland no go. I tried going to another city that had difrent buildings still no upgrade option. What am I missing?

I am unsure of what you are asking. The initial grammar was a little off. Once you upgrade an adventurer down a certain line (axeman, adept, scout), you cannot switch between lines, only move up one of them (ie. axeman => dragonslayer).

2) My second question has been answered to some degree elsewhere but I am sitll a bit confused. I don't totally understand how the great person system works that is probably part of my problem. In my current game I have gotten 5 adventurers and a great commander before popping my world spell. I built a few wonders trying to keep them out of the capitol as much as I could. When i cast Ardor I quickly got 4 great people only one of whom was an adventurer. Is there a way to not pollute the great person pool besides just not building wonders?

There is no way if you build wonders afaik. You could try to build the adventurer structures, like adventurers hall (I think that is what it is called.).

 

[DaveGold]

If you want an adventurer to become a Luonnatar you can upgrade him to become a ranger, perhaps, then once you've promoted him to level 6 you can upgrade him to a Luonnatar with the right tech (strength of will?).

If you want a specific great person you will always have problems as wonders, including the national epic, always make a contribution and increase the chance of their great person. The Grigori should be able to generate enough great people so that you get what you need eventually, unless you're wanting a lot of priests.

 

[Breunor]

1. I'm not sure any unit can become a Luonnatar. I'm not 100% sure of the rules, but I would think that only units that can upgrade to druids can upgrade to Luonnatars, meaning essentially rangers and preists; for the Grigori, it may be Grigori Medics and rangers.

2. The main mechanic here comes from many phenomena that grant 'great people points'. The Grigori palace grants two. Specialists and wonders also grant great people points. Great people points are specific to cities, each one has its own count.

In total, when the number of great people points in a city exceeds the threshold, the civilization gets a great person. So, for instance, the first threshold is 100, so once 100 GPP's are generated in a city, that city will get a great person.

Which great person? The specific type of great person generated is random (unless only one type was used) and based on the type producing that GPP's. So, for instance, if you have a Grigori Palace and Form of the Titan, you will generate 4 GPP's turn; 2 from the palace, 2 from the wonder. Form of the Titan generates great commander points.

Following the example, once the threshold is passed, 1/2 of the GPP's are for great commander, 1/2 for adventurers - therefore, there is a 50% chance you will get a great commander and a 50% chance of getting an adventurer. The 'main' way to get GPP's is through assigning specialists, which usually give 3 GPP's per specialists.

You can speed up your ability to get GPP's through civics like pacifism (50%) and characteristics like Philosophical (100%). The Grigori get two unique buildings that help. The Grigori Tavern adds an adventurer GPP, but unfortunately is not available until mercantilism, a late game tech. They can also build an adventurer's guild, that give 25% GPP's/turn along with 2 adventurer GPP's. The Grigori Palace adds 15% to GPP's, and they are Philosophical, adding 100%.

Therefore, if the Grigori start with Pacifism, they are generating 2 GPP's from the palace, and get a bonus of 100% (philosophical), 50% (Pacifism), and 15% (palace) for a total bonus of 165%.

So, if you want to churn out a lot of adventurer's, it is best not to use specialists, and not to create too many wonders. Conversely, try to run pacifism, and especially get out the Adventurer's Guild (requires Currency) as soon as you can.


Should the Grigori build wonders? Is it worth polluting the GPP or not? Even experienced players debate this topic. Note that Grigori start are industrious as their adaptive trait - if you aren't building wonders, you should certainly prefer to switch it.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[SilencerNate]

Regarding Adventurers, as stated before, its a game of chance.
Here's a few scenarios to help you decide, first though, a few assumptions:
1) Unrestricted leaders OFF. Or, make sure your non-Gregori leader has Philosophical.
2) Your city with your Palace has the highest Great Person production.
3) Gregori Palace - 2 points, Gregori Tavern - 1 point, Adventurer's Guild - 2 Points
4) Palace+Tavern+Guild = 5 Base Points.
5) Philosophical + Pacifist + Palace (15%), Republic + 1 Spirit Mana (Granted from Palace) = +180% Modification


That said...


Scenario 1) Maximum SAFE Adventurers
For this, we want 100% fail safe chance of Adventurers, therefore zero pollution.
Palace + Tavern + Guild = 5 Adventurer
Philosophical + Pacifist + Palace + Republic + 1 Spirit Mana = +195%
5 (195%) = 14.75 Points generated with 100% chance


Scenario 2) Maximum Reasonable Chance Adventurers
This is typically the route I go, we add a National Epic in.
Palace + Tavern + Guild +National Epic = 5 Adventurer + 1 Commander
Philosophical + National Epic + Pacifist + Palace + Republic + 1 Spirit Mana = +295%
6 (295%) = 23.7 Points generated with 83.333% chance


Scenario 3) Quantity over Quality
Some swear by this system. Build as many wonders as you can, and hope for the best. For simplicity, we'll assume you build 2 national wonders (National Epic + Heroic Epic) , and 10 world wonders (each giving 2 GGP apiece)
5 (Base) + 2 (Nationals) + 20 (World) = 5 Adventurer + 22 Others
Philosophical + National Epic + Pacifist + Palace + Republic + 1 Spirit Mana = +295%
22 (295%) = 86.9 Points generated with 18% chance



Of course there are several variables that cannot be easily calculated easily. For example while the 18% chance in Scenario 3 seems small, it does not factor in the bonuses from non Adventurers that could be used to spark Golden Ages (+100% GGP), the use of the Gregori World Spell, or number of turns played. Furthermore, the massive production of great people in scenario 3 can be picked and chosen for other purposes (i.e. Prophets for religious victory).

In the end, its about personal preference. I would try a game with each, and see how it plays, and find the system that suits you best. I will give one piece of advice though. Make sure if playing with the conservative choices to turn off automated citizen allocation. If you're 100%, and not paying attention, a bard or sage specialist can wreck your dreams!

 

[Calavente]

your reasonning is almost correct...
save that as far as I can remember, your math is off.

well not your maths, but your comprehension of the mechanism (if it didn't change from FFH ice version)

gpp are given by additionning number of ggp points.
% chance of emergence per type is given per ratio of "number of source X"/"total number of gpp sources"

For starting : I appologize for the loooong explanation that's coming

examples (I'll start from your reasonnings) :

Scenario 1) Maximum SAFE Adventurers
For this, we want 100% fail safe chance of Adventurers, therefore zero pollution.
Palace + Tavern + Guild = 5 Adventurer
Philosophical + Pacifist + Palace + 1 Spirit Mana +Guild= +195% (effet of republic?)
5 (195%) = 14.75 Points generated with 100% chance

Scenario 2) Reasonable Chance Adventurers, maximum gpp%
Palace + Tavern + Guild +National Epic = 5 Adventurer + 1 Commander
=> 4 total sources, 3 out of 4 bieng adventurer sources.
National Epic + Philosophical + Pacifist + Palace + 1 Spirit Mana +Guild= +295%(effet of republic?)
6 (+295%) = 23.7 Points generated with 75% chance getting an adventurer.
way better than Scenario 1 : gpp generation risen 1.6 times 3/4th being adventurers).
you'll get adventurers 1.2 times quicker than in scenario 1 (as a mean)

Scenario 3) Quantity over Quality 1 ; MY Grigori GP Farm
Some swear by this system. take as many specialist as you can (say : 8), and hope for the best. For simplicity, we'll assume you build the National Epic.
5 (Base) + 1 (1*1National epic) + 24 (3*8specialists) = 5 Adventurer + 25 Others;
=>3 adventurers sources, 12 sources total.
National Epic + Philosophical + Pacifist + Palace + 1 Spirit Mana +Guild = +295%(effet of republic?)
30 (+295%) = 118.6 Points generated with 25% chance
(gpp generation risen by 8 times, 1/4th being adventurers)
you'll get adventurer about 2 times quicker than in Scenario 1 .

Scenario 4) Quantity over Quality 2; wonders
Some swear by this system. Build as many wonders as you can, and hope for the best. For simplicity, we'll assume you build 2 national wonders (National Epic + Heroic Epic) , and 10 world wonders (each giving 2 GGP apiece); No specialists.
5 (Base) + 2 (Nationals) + 20 (Great Wonders) = 5 Adventurer + 22 Others (3sources adv ;
=>15 sources total ; 3 being adventurer sources
National Epic + Philosophical + Pacifist + Palace + 1 Spirit Mana +Guild= +295%(effet of republic?)
26 (295%) = 106.9 Points generated with 20% chance
7 times more gpp, 1/5th GP being an adventurer.
=> you'll get adventurer 1,44times quicker than Scenario 1.

Scenario 5) : as Scenario 4 without heroic epic : 5 +1 +20 = 26 ; 14 sources : 102.6gpp ; => adventurers comes 1,5 times quicker)

Conclusions :
you'll notice 2 things :

1) Wonders vs specialists
specialists give 3gpp and 1 source
Great wonders give 2gpp and 1source
national wonders give 1gpp and 1source.
thus, to get adventurers, the higher the ratio gpp/source is the better : more contribution to gpp pool (quicker GP) but less source, less reduction of adventurer ratio.
on the other hand, grigori specials : adv guild, palace...etc are VERY GOOD : 1-2 gpp and 1source : even with few actual gpp contribution the play a disproportionatly huge role in getting more adventurers.

Thus, with a bucket, if you want quantity of quality, you'll try to maximise specialists over wonder in your gp(adventurer) farm.
as a rule :
-specialists accelerate adventurer generation (reduce the adventurer spawning chance but rise the gpp so that adventurers have a chance to come quicker),
-wonders accelerate adventurer generation, but less than specialists (compare effet of 10 wonders versus 8 specialists= specialist has both more gpp and more adventurer chances).
-National wonders (save national epic) reduces adventurer generation. It doesn't show in scenario 4 as you have the national epic (+100%gpp). But you'll notice that 10wonders + national epic do better than 10 wonders +national epic + heroic epic.
So any other wonder giving +1gpp IS NOT TO BE BUILD in your grigori GP farm ! (only the national epic for the +100%gpp rate)

If I do a grigori GP farm (scenarii 3-4), it would have mostly specialists. You can build wonders in surrounding cities (but mostly not in GP farm), as long as you spread them so those cities do not participate in the GP race.
(In scenario 1 you can't build any wonders in your empire as the cities with wonders will compete with your capital and reduce your ratio of adventurers with almost not qucikening the spawning rate).

In a grigori GP farms some wonders can be interesting :
-national epic (1source for 1gpp.. but +100 gpp growth!! really worth it for a GP farm, !)
-great library : 2 gpp + 1(2) free sage : = 5(8)gpp for 2(3) sources : not as good gpp/source ratio as a specialist but as the specialist is free and do not eat any , it can be really worthwhile.
-some wonders help to get new specialists slots.... (those slots comes at a cost : only 2gpp/source) so having an advantegeous civic or spreading your specialists around the different kind might be better.

2)I always say "x times quicker" and not "X times as much as"
it is due to the disminished return on gpp (increased costs)
with only 1city gathering gpp :
1st GP is at 100gpp, second is at (100spent) + 200 =300gpp.. third is at (300 already spent) + 300 = 600total, fourth is at : (600) +400 =1000 .
1=100 ; 2=300 ; 3=600 ; 4=1000 ; 5=1500 ; 6 =2100 ; 7=2800: 8=3600 ....etc
so as you'll gather gpp 8 times quicker, you won't really have 8 times more GP (scenario 3).
by the time scenario 1 went from 600 to 1000 (4th GP) you went from 600 (same start) to 600+ 400*8 = 3800 gpp.
so while scenario 1 gains 1 GP, scenario 3 grants you the 4th to 8th GP = 5 more GP : 5times more great people generation than in the first scenario. Between those 5 generated GP, 1 or 2 are adventurers, maybe 0, maybe 3-4.

so when he has his 4adventurers, you'll have 8 total GP, and maybe only your 5th adventurer.
BUT, you'll certainly got your 5 nextGP (4th to 8th) 8times quicker than he will get those 5 next GP !

and it goes down to the same principle : getting X times more gpp does not translate to having X times more GP/adventurers, but getting them X times quicker.
Well, as you know, It is completly scrambled by the ARDOR spell that resets the counter. this way you might get much much more adventurer using scenario 3 than scenario 1.


I hope all this helps and that the "good" information is not diluted in so many words...

I added an excell table if it is more understandable for you ... good luck.