Grigori - what did I do wrong?

[Sarkyn]

Hello again!

I'm trying the atheist adventurers for the first time.

I set the difficulty one notch lower than normal - prince.

I got a great starting position - tons of flood plains in my capital's cross, and lots of positive resources and good city sights nearby.

I started with my semi-typical "Any Philosophical Leader" start, which involves (short-hand):

->Agriculture
->Elder Councils (make Sage)
->Writing

It gets me a nice quick start on the tech tree, which I have found absolutely necessary on harder levels. Elder councils in every city, and a reliance on specialists and farms to feed them.

The problem is that my cities are spawning massive amounts of great people, but I have had a total of only 2 adventurers and I'm getting up to Tier 3 units now.... Since 1 adventurer died, I've got only 1 hero.

I did however, get:

- about 15 great scientists
- 1 great prophet..(Er...?)
- 2 great generals
- 3 great merchants
- 2 great engineers

I didn't do tons of research, but it seems that a great people strategy of any kind with Grigori actually does a lot more harm than good.

I'm going to have to restart, at the moment it just feels like I played FFH without any race flavour at all

Any tips for the second time around?

And do the mod-makers think maybe weighting the Great Adventurer chances a bit more might help this?

 

[jwin]

Since adventurers are great people, you don't want to do anything that will make the possibility of spawning other types of great people. So, don't make any specialists or early wonders and shoot for the things that give either a base great people rate increase or the things (like tavern and adventurers guild) that give an adventurer bonus.

 

[Sarkyn]

I find the idea of playing without specialists or Wonders at all quite... limiting. Especially on fairly difficult levels that must make the tech-tree very difficult to climb and create a need for a very different kind of improvement pattern...

Surely that makes any sort of specialisation really difficult...

*tries to get head around the idea*

I assumed that even with specialists, the great adventurers would still pop out once every 2nd (or at most 3rd or 4th) great person. I didn't expect that using specialists eliminates them :/

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Well remember, at the start you only get adventurer points from the palace. So building elder councils in other cities and assigning sages meant your (probably) 3rd and 4th great people had no chance of being adventurers.

You can still do alright with lots of normal Great People, I suppose, but you're right, if you want to get the most of the Grigori, hold off on specialists, at least until you have generated 3-4 adverturers. Between philosophical, the monument bonus, and your palace points, it shouldn't take too long to grab 2 or 3, and at that point you have a great little army for an early war.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I believe you get other adventurer-generating buildings at Currency and Mercantilism. In fact, this tends to get you enough points that base GPP modifying buildings can really speed up your adventurer generation.

 

[xanaqui42]

Perhaps the Grigori's specialists should be changed to give some Adventurer GPP in place of the normal GPP they grant.

 

[Grey Fox]

Perhaps the Grigori's specialists should be changed to give some Adventurer GPP in place of the normal GPP they grant.

Nah, I think the Adventurers are strong enough that the player should have to make a choice between getting as many adventurers as possible with the highest Probability (i.e. no specialists, no wonders etc). Or; Take a chance, use specialists and maybe some wonders to get your Great People faster, but will less chance of adventurers. Or; Maximize GPP and just hope to get an adventurer now and then.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think that we need some way to get more adventurers. Some ideas:

1. Adventurer point granting buildings should grant more points proportionally to the total amount of GGP.

2. they should guarantee minimum percentage chances for adventurers

3. other GP are sometimes randomly replaced by adventurers

4. The Grigori's Citizen Specialists should grant a small amount of Adventuerer points

three and 4 could probably be implemented as special functions for the Grigori, the Grigori Palace, or possibly the Agnostic trait, leaving little need for their unique buildings

 

[Sureshot]

i like that Citizens specialists idea, that could work out nicely

 

[Sarkyn]

Well, at the moment, they're a very advanced faction to play. I have many friends who play civ and a lot of them consider specialists and great people to be part of the "under the covers" game that they never, ever tinker with. For them, playing the Grigori isn't an option.

So, if you want to change them, I'm sure this forum can think of ways. But it's up to the dev team to determine if they want to change them at all, first.

If they do... well... Hrm, options.

Is there any way to modifiy the "Priest" specialist to add something different for the Grigori? Then you could actually specialise FOR adventurers by making cities elect the "PriestReplacement" (maybe "Trainer" or "Recruiter" or something flavour-wise that matches the intent...)

And/or could +1 Adventurer point be added to their unique Obelisk? Since the other +adventurer buildings seem to be quite a bit later game, that seems to be where the gap is in a heavy-adventurer strategy... early game.

Since adventurers seem to give a real boost to the early game, giving multiple heroes far far earlier than other civs could get them, maybe the fix involves somehow spreading the generation of adventurers over the full life-cycle of the game, making them fairer end-to-end, and giving more versatility.

That could probably be achieved by removing the Adventure points from the buildings and adding +1 adventurer point to every specialist... So that the +AP slowly accummulated over the course of the game with the increased use of specialists.

Not sure! At the moment they're probably a very good race choice for a micro-manager who understands the mechanic very well, but not a good race choice for a more hands off "let the AI manage it" player.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're broken though, they might just be an advanced player choice

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Actually, a priest replacement might fit pretty well (but what to call it? Philosopher maybe? that might be too close to sage). It doesn't really make sense for them to have access to a normal priest, since they are soo oppesed to religion. Also, this way the Altars of the Luonnatar would actually be a huge boost to the civ with the Luonnatar flavor, instead of actually preventing their strongest units.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

i like that Citizens specialists idea, that could work out nicely

At first glance interesting, upon clser thought, probably too powerful. Unless it was only one point, that might work.

Actually, a priest replacement might fit pretty well, but what to call it?

Orator?

 

[Antheanian]

I agree that the priest replacement would do well. It would be more logical, in a sense. Maybe as a retired adventurer?

 

[Sarkyn]

Since the Grigori unique buildings follow this theme, as well, how about:

"Bartender"

Telling tall tales to encourage the young'uns to go out and make their fame and fortune as adventurers

 

[Antheanian]

"Bartender"

I like it!

 

[Sureshot]

At first glance interesting, upon clser thought, probably too powerful. Unless it was only one point, that might work.
Orator?

1 point and 1 production for each citizen doing nothing.. basically its like giving up real specialist production to let your people be wowed of tales of great heroes so that theyre more likely to become adventurers heh

 

[BCalchet]

Simple solution: Allow all great people to upgrade to adventurers at a moderate gold cost, requiring the Grigori Palace.

 

[Grey Fox]

Are you guys seriously saying that Grigori arn't getting enough Adventurers? Is this really a big problem?

As I see it, if you go for normal Great People, the negative is that you get less Adventurers, if you go for Adventurers the negative is that you get less Great People. Isn't that a fair trade off? Adventurers are strong enough in my mind that both that and the fact you have no religion is paid off by their versatility alone.

 

[katika]

You can control what GP you get. In your capital, don't pollute your Adventure pool (except probably the National Epic). Use other cities for your scientists, merchants, etc. When you want an Adventurer, get rid of the other specialists (or don't let those cities cross the border).

Alternatively, you can get your first two and then use specialists, relying on odds to get you at least one more. Other civs only get a few heroes anyways, and some of those obsolete unlike your Adventurers.

 

[EugeneStyles]

I don't think that too much needs to be changed. Just don't assign specialists - it's not that hard, and the power of Adventurers more than makes up for a few lost light-bulbs. Personally, I don't shy away from building wonders, since they're worth the chance of polluting the GP pool, but if I have a few wonders in my capital city, I will relocate my palace to a clean city after Tavern and Adventurers Guild become available.

Giving Citizens 1 GPP (Adventurer) and 1 Production wouldn't be overpowered - and it would actually encourage Grigori to have a few citizens who "think for themselves" and don't follow the whims of the gods (in this case, you).

Having a unique Priest (Philosopher?) would be okay, although I would think they should produce like 1 GPP for Adverturers and 2 GPP for Great Prophet (or maybe vice-versa) - and not completely shut them out of Great Prophets (although having the Luonnatar able to build an altar does alleviate the need for them somewhat). But in any case, I'm not sure it's entirely necessary. Grigori are pretty good as is.