Hardest victory condition?

[Spoonwood]

Which victory condition do you find the hardest? At which level do you usually play at, or if you play many levels, for the victory condition you selected, which level do you think it the hardest at?

 

[CivMcNut]

Edit: Didn't see this was a Civ III forum till it was too late

 

[hrhomer]

I have just come back to the game after about a year of not playing. I seem to recall only winning through conquest once, mainly because I just never get that far. I get bored and rush to a space or dom race instead...

Joe

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

Can't really say since I've never pursued anything but a conquest or my own version of a domination victory.

 

[Pacioli]

I voted for diplomatic. I've played a few games with a diplomatic vc and thought I was in a great position to win but didn't. Seems the AI never forgets a war I had with them even though it was during the ancient age. After ages of trading tech, resources and luxuries, the AI will not vote in my favor because of that one war.

 

[timerover51]

With the modified game that I play, and since I am normally playing on huge, 160 x 160 tiles, or larger maps, either continent or archipelago, I find conquest the hardest. After a while, I get bored with continually fighting, and simply head for a Space Ship victory. I play with culture and diplomatic victory conditions disabled, but also win on points on a regular basis before getting a conquest win.

 

[del62]

It depends on the level I guess, on lower levels, say warlord and cheif, the hardest are 100k and Histograsphic, because they take a long time to achieve

I suspect on the highest levels all victory conditions are hard, I guess 100K on the highest levels (SID and Deity) might be really tough, you probably have to do a defacto conquest

Edit: I voted histographic, but perhaps I should have voted 100k

 

[puwen]

With the modified game that I play, and since I am normally playing on huge, 160 x 160 tiles, or larger maps, either continent or archipelago, I find conquest the hardest. After a while, I get bored with continually fighting, and simply head for a Space Ship victory. I play with culture and diplomatic victory conditions disabled, but also win on points on a regular basis before getting a conquest win.

This, exept that I usually leave diplomatic on since that is a faster win then spaceship when i get tired of fighting.

 

[katipunero]

voted for conquest. it takes a lot of effort but it is so worth it.

 

[darski]

I voted for diplo only because I have it turned off permanently. I loathe, hate and abhor the UN so I won't allow it in my games. It's my hardest because it will never happen.

 

[Spoonwood]

I usually play many different levels for the HoF. Still, I'd consider myself a Sid player these days. At Sid level I use to think conquest or domination or 100k, or something like that would come out as hardest. But now, since I feel confident I can do those on a pangea map, I feel (and voted for) the 20k as the hardest. For the other conditions I can basically catch-up in tech and control the AI's economy to get enough units to kill the AIs or, research and growth buildings. Doing that's all more complex imo than what you want to do in a 20k, but you have more control. For a Sid 20k you more-or-less have to get to a tech first and possibly have a few turns to spare to build a wonder and/or pre-build with the palace. Sid research costs whole entire libraries of knowledge, and I doubt it's all that feasible to pulverize the AIs early enough to build all that many wonders on most maps, though one notable exception does come to mind. Good luck with The Colossus also.

 

[Untouchable88]

For domination/conquests games once you get the AI on its heels its hard to not be able to finish things off. Space Race/democratic victories require a bit more luck and trading skills but can be pulled off with the TOE advantage. I myself don't like culture games that much and I never played a 100k game before. I have played 20k games before and I would have to say those get particularly hard after you get past emperor level so I think those are the most challenging.

 

[Daeron]

20k is without a doubt the hardest, because you start on it in the Ancient Age. It's not as if you can wait until you're in a good position, like with other victory conditions. Even at lower difficulties, there's the chance that a rival AI will get an MGL or SGL and snatch an important wonder away from you, though the chances of losing out on the GLib are very very small.

 

[Lanzelot]

I also voted 20K, because on the higher difficulty levels (Demigod and above) it is very hard: The AI will build every Ancient Age wonder, before you even have the necessary tech for it...

On Warlord 100K and Domination may be the hardest, because for these VCs it is important that the AI builds a good number of cities, which you can "take over" later... But on Warlord the AI expands so slowly, that you loose too much time waiting for the AI to get anything finished... And those few towns that the AI actually does manage to build, are only size-1, so you can't capture them.

 

[Spoonwood]

I also voted 20K, because on the higher difficulty levels (Demigod and above) it is very hard: The AI will build every Ancient Age wonder, before you even have the necessary tech for it

What sort of map and how many opponents do you play against? I guess you don't mean 80% archipelago, as I really only play 80% or 70% archipelago for Demi-God or above 20k so I can build a lot of ancient wonders. The Great Library usually comes as possible on almost any map (except for maybe Sid pangea and contients).

On Warlord 100K and Domination may be the hardest, because for these VCs it is important that the AI builds a good number of cities, which you can "take over" later... But on Warlord the AI expands so slowly, that you loose too much time waiting for the AI to get anything finished... And those few towns that the AI actually does manage to build, are only size-1, so you can't capture them.

I don't agree with the 100k point, as I think it's easier to settle than to capture for one of those games, but I don't play much 100k. I hear what you've said here on domination. We recently had a Warlord domination gauntlet over at the HoF. I didn't build veteran units, instead building regulars, parking them outside towns, gifting those towns to the AIs, then immediately retaking them, then finally extorting a few cities from the AIs, because of what you've indicated.

 

[Lanzelot]

For the last 2.5 years I've mainly played the GOTM/COTM games. So that means mainly Continents and Pangaea. Yes, on Archipelago it may be easier to get a 20K on Demigod and above. Have never tried it (not much time for a "private" game besides the GOTMs and some PBEMS...)

The "gifting/retaking/extorting" strategy sounds quite interesting...! That never occured to me, but it could indeed be a powerful strategy to get a large number of size-1 towns from the AI...
But even if it works ok, I still think that Domination/100K will take longer than let's say on Regent or Monarch, because the total number of towns that the AI builds in a given period of time, is smaller, so even if you get all these size-1 towns in peace deals, it will still take longer than just running through a well-rexed neighbor with a dozen horsemen, not?

One question: the towns that you gift, need to be size-2, don't they? Otherwise they would be auto-razed, when you retake, because your citizen changes nationality, when gifting?

Cheers, Lanzelot

 

[Spoonwood]

But even if it works ok, I still think that Domination/100K will take longer than let's say on Regent or Monarch, because the total number of towns that the AI builds in a given period of time, is smaller, so even if you get all these size-1 towns in peace deals, it will still take longer than just running through a well-rexed neighbor with a dozen horsemen, not?

I don't think so. You'll almost surely need a few barracks for those horsemen (or SGL Sun Tzu's maybe?). Even if you have free barracks horsemen cost as much in terms of shields as settlers AND you'll have some losses, as the AI will have some spears by then. The gift-retake trick requires 10 shields per city, while the horseman method almost surely requires more AND the AI won't have filled all the territory (hardly anything really), so you'll need settlers anyway.

Also, I think the HoF tables like this one help indicate that lower levels can go faster.

One question: the towns that you gift, need to be size-2, don't they? Otherwise they would be auto-razed, when you retake, because your citizen changes nationality, when gifting?

I believe they don't, as if you have culture, they'll stay in tact. Though, I really don't feel certain on such, I've just read it somewhere around here.

 

[madviking]

I don't think ever won by Diplo in Civ3... all of my games usually end with me romping with cavalry/tanks/modern armor.

 

[Lanzelot]

I don't think so. You'll almost surely need a few barracks for those horsemen (or SGL Sun Tzu's maybe?). Even if you have free barracks horsemen cost as much in terms of shields as settlers AND you'll have some losses, as the AI will have some spears by then. The gift-retake trick requires 10 shields per city, while the horseman method almost surely requires more AND the AI won't have filled all the territory (hardly anything really), so you'll need settlers anyway.

Also, I think the HoF tables like this one help indicate that lower levels can go faster.

Interesting statistical evidence! If we look at the fastest finish date or the average over the first 5 entries, you are right, the lower levels seem easier than the higher ones:

Fastest Finish
Chieftain  650BC
Warlord    490BC
Regent     290BC
Monarch    470BC
Emperor    210BC

Average 5
Chieftain  530BC
Warlord    386BC
Regent     130BC
Monarch    266BC
Emperor    154AD

(I did not take the average over all ten games, because some of the lower results are clearly too far from the "best mark" to be statistically significant, e.g the 1310AD win at Regent.)

However, note the very odd result for Monarch! If it were only the #1 spot, we could say "probably a very lucky game". But the average indicates as well, that Monarch is somehow easier than Regent. Perhaps this is where my theory begins to be valid: on Monarch the AI is finally productive enough to contribute a siginifcant number of towns of its own, which makes it easier than Regent. On Emperor however, this effect is counter-balanced by the fact that the AI puts up some real stiff defense, making the win harder again.

By the way, if we look at the corresponding tables for 100K, we notice the same effect: Monarch is again easier than Regent...!?

I believe they don't, as if you have culture, they'll stay in tact. Though, I really don't feel certain on such, I've just read it somewhere around here.

Here is how this works:

• If you take a town from Civ A and then gift it to Civ B, the inhabitants keep their nationality "A".
• If you gift one of your own towns to Civ B, then the inhabitants change from your nationality to "B".
• I got curious and gifted a "mixed" town, i.e one where I added a few foreign slaves to the town before gifting: here the "foreign" citizens kept their nationality, while my own citizens changed to the new nationality!

So that means: if you want to prevent the gifted towns from auto-razing when you re-take them, you need to make sure that one of the following conditions is fullfilled:

• town is of size 2
• town has at least 10 culture
• town has a "third party" citizen, i.e a citizen of a nation which you are not at war with. Then you can re-take even a "culture-less size-1 town", and it won't get auto-razed. (Some time ago noticed something similar in one of my games: I had a city X with citizens of foreign nationality, which I had gained in a previous war with Civ A. Later I was at war with Civ B, and city X changed hands several times. But it never lost any population, neither when Civ B took it, nor when I took it back. I think you need to be at peace with Civ A for this to work.)

But I guess this doesn't matter much, because by the time the town has finished the 10-shield warrior for re-taking, it has also grown to size 2. I have to try that in one of my next games...

 

[Lord Emsworth]

One question: the towns that you gift, need to be size-2, don't they? Otherwise they would be auto-razed, when you retake, because your citizen changes nationality, when gifting?

They'd need to be even size 3 if the AI is still in Despotism (or any other pop-rush government), because of that "scare bug" where all AI towns lose a pop point when you declare war.