Has the game gotten harder or am I off my game?

scout more thoroughly.
Which means more planning and more options are available the earlier you find them.
But it does sound like you are gamed our a bit, take a break maybe?
I came to the conclusion long ago that playing to win was a hollow goal for me, I needed to keep interested with different things. I now love a skirmisher / LC combo for tying down some of their army, just feels real. Must have at least 2 of every troop type to attack and doing it on emperor makes it more relaxing.
 
I just loaded up a game as Japan on Emperor. Not in the best frame of mind, but it was a demonstration of how tough this game can be if you're not ultra-optimizing and exploiting it. I was totally hemmed in by the AI and the sheer amount of AI unit spam made it impossible to capture any cities (if the AI spams enough units it will eventually make up for its terrible combat logic, simply through sheer numbers), meanwhile my economy, science and culture were tanking because of building only/mostly units and it basically ended with a rage quit and feeling depressed afterward. Maybe I am just a very bad 'gamer', that's highly likely, but the game isn't as easy as you think for most people I reckon.

Again, that's nominally what different difficulty levels are for. You ought to expect to be challenged most of the time on Emperor - I've been playing Civ since the first game released and don't think I ever got past Emperor until Civ V. For much of Civ V it was my preferred difficulty and it took practice and learning the tech tree, policy options and pros and cons of different strategies for me to settle on Immortal as my favoured mode.

As far as I can recall, I played two games on Emperor with Civ VI and went straight up to Deity, without ever looking back.
 
I came to the conclusion long ago that playing to win was a hollow goal for me

Listen to Victoria lol. A brief look at her combat puzzles shows that they cover 95% of the knowledge lacking in this thread :)

To me, the June 2019 update is actually Firaxis recognising some of the most popular mods, particularly p0khiel's. There was also a popular mod that turned the barbarians back up to 11 which they seem to have included as well. It's actually pretty funny to be preparing for a war on Immortal/Deity and then suddenly get rolled by barbs that spawn 2 tiles from your borders on the other side of your empire. I like being paranoid about barbs again. Many lulz

Something that many people forget is that many of the civs seem clearly designed for specific map settings and/or advanced starts. There are plenty of achievements that seem to indicate this intention from the devs.

Difficulty is also hugely impacted by game speed. The YouTubers I've seen playing Deity have *never* been playing on standard. They're usually playing 2 steps slower than that if I recall correctly.

I had a friend who claimed he could beat Civ 5 on Deity. I asked him to show me how he did it and he proceeded to select a slow game speed, huge map and reroll his start about 20 times (there's actually a button for this in Civ 6). Beware bullshitters claiming credit where credit is not due :) Victoria's comment about not playing to win is both sage and *honest* advice. I'm almost 100% sure people who say the game is easy are playing on specific settings that make it easier.

Edit:
This thread is both a great write-up and an excellent example of game settings. Full respect as well - played on standard speed. https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-dido-science-victory-around-turn-320.645177/
Take note of the timing attack required to win the game and the extension use of spies to prevent the AI winning when you're 20 techs behind.
 
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Listen to Victoria lol. A brief look at her combat puzzles shows that they cover 95% of the knowledge lacking in this thread :)

To me, the June 2019 update is actually Firaxis recognising some of the most popular mods, particularly p0khiel's. There was also a popular mod that turned the barbarians back up to 11 which they seem to have included as well. It's actually pretty funny to be preparing for a war on Immortal/Deity and then suddenly get rolled by barbs that spawn 2 tiles from your borders on the other side of your empire. I like being paranoid about barbs again. Many lulz

Personally I find the Civ VI barbarian spam tedious. Having them be an early-game threat is one thing, but more often that not I find that barbarians pose more of a military threat to me than AI civs and I don't want the game to be about fighting barbarians while ignoring the opposing factions altogether.

For those who like it certain maps, like Inland Sea, naturally seem to over-spam barbarians.

I had a friend who claimed he could beat Civ 5 on Deity. I asked him to show me how he did it and he proceeded to select a slow game speed, huge map and reroll his start about 20 times (there's actually a button for this in Civ 6). Beware bull****ters claiming credit where credit is not due :) Victoria's comment about not playing to win is both sage and *honest* advice. I'm almost 100% sure people who say the game is easy are playing on specific settings that make it easier.

My general settings are Standard, Huge, Deity, and usually Shuffle map, with a random leader. I never reroll starting positions unless I'm in tundra or flat desert without a civ that benefits from those terrain types. Once again, I play anything but optimally - my late-game resource output is rarely more than half that I've seen in screenshots of other people's play, I mostly ignore amenities and housing and I don't use any types of exploits. A lot of people like to game the system for whatever reason - my complaint is that the game is too easy at the highest difficulty without doing that.
 
Standard, Huge, Deity, and usually Shuffle map

Yea, sorry if I tilted ye a bit. I read your post and realised that it looked like I was replying to you. That really was not my intention.
I won Immortal last night in 6 hours on small/standard/Pangaea with Rome so I have to completely concede your points as well :)


If you are interested in why I place so much weight in map size and game speed in terms of difficulty, here's a very brief explanation. There will be heaps of specifics that I'm wrong about and I haven't actually looked at Civ 6's game files - this is based off maybe Civ 3/4 & possibly 5.

Most people think strategy game AI is like a chess AI where it is analysing/reducing permutations in a way that replicates deduction (I doubt chess AIs still function this way). This isn't really achievable (naively at least) in Civ because every piece moves like a queen that can turn corners, there can be hundreds of pieces later in the game, the gameboard isn't uniform etc etc.

In reality, whenever I've gone to mini-mod/tweak strategy games, the AI is always defined in terms of subsumptive behaviours which are a very approximate approach to modelling behaviour in very complex contexts.


These a basically a bunch of pre-canned behaviours like "attack the lowest health unit" or "run away". Each performs some specialised analysis and produce a number that is given a weight in the moddable files. So someone who is modding a game can only adjust which behaviours a unit has and their weight, not how the behaviours actually perform their analysis.

E.g. an archer might have a behaviour list like this:
1) move into range of enemy ranged units and attack: 40%
2) move into range of melee and attack: 60%
3) move to opposite side of river from infantry: 60%
4) move to opposite side of river from cavalry: 0% (because you'll get rekt, son)

And in a given game, there might be a situation where the behaviour's individual analysis comes up like this:

1) 50 2) 70 3) 90 4) 100

multiplied by the weights:

1) 50 * 40% = 20 2) 70 * 60% = 42 3) 90 * 60% = 56 4) 100 * 0% = 0

The highest is 3) 56 so the archer moves to the opposite side of the river from an infantry unit. (Please forgive me if I've forgotten my 10 times tables - it's been a while since I've actually calculated anything myself.)

etc etc - and you can already see that, in actuality, we need those behaviours to be broken apart and fed into each-other in a deductive way. The list doesn't actually make sense but does *fully* explain why the AI is so appalling at combat. This is also why Victoria's combat puzzles are such a powerful insight into beating the AI.


If you follow some of the links on the wiki page, you'll probably encounter various academic solutions to these problems along with some analysis of their computational complexity (how long it takes them to run). Real solutions are a lot more open ended than that but the academic stuff is very important for understanding how concepts are related to each-other and the feasibility of the solutions.

In comparison to neural nets (called "deep learning" or "machine learning" these days), this stuff can/has been referred to as "classical AI". It's a crap ton faster than neural nets. It might take Firaxis 5 years on a server farm to create a machine learned AI for Civ (it might take months or days too). Every time they changed the rules (i.e. patches), they'd have to retrain it as well.


When applied to things like city placement, the AI will probably analyse the tiles in a city's radious as it's highest priority behaviours. For example, if you have some massive eruptions early in the game, the AI will often settle cities on those sites whereas a human might realise that most of the tiles are mountains and settle off to the side, with an understanding that, in practice, we only need 3 of the 6 high yield tiles.

I haven't actually looked at Civ 6's files but in the past there hasn't been a separate list of behaviours for different map settings as, somewhat obviously, it'd take a million years to playtest them all (or a generative automated testing framework and game designers who stayed within the constraints that enable that - which is a general rant about programming that I shouldn't get into).

Going back to the city placement example - as humans, we can calculate the time sensitivity of our decisions and understand that the first 3 unimproved tile yields are much more important than the rest. The AI gets free builders to combat this and free settlers to make up for their terrible city placement. It also appears that the AI basically can't play the adjacency game and certainly does not respond to patch changes or differences between Civs (although I think it does change the priorities of the districts it builds based on Civ - again, haven't looked at the files to know this).

When you make the map larger or expand the time scale, you're increasing the number of bad cumulative decisions the AI makes VS the number of good cumulative decisions a human makes. That's why, even with all the AI's advantages, you'll see the player with an average city pop of 7 say whereas the best AI is around 4 or 5. On Deity where, as you know, the AI's advantages are utterly insane.

Adjacency and 1UPT aren't well suited to the AI's decision making method so this problem is disproportionately worse in Civ 6. This is why small/standard & either continents, pangaea or island plates are the only settings where the AI actually works in Civ 6.

It is also why the people saying the game is harder in June 2019 might be right. The OP was clicking "Play Now" which is applying the settings for which the AI has been play-tested. Additionally, June 2019 has changed the player's decision making and punished a small army early with barbs - these are both things that change (i.e. temporarily decrease) the ratio of bad AI decisions to good player decisions.

That took a while to explain sorry. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at. Again, play how you want but understand that if you want to play huge maps against a decent AI, you have to play Civ 4 because the AI can't cope with Civ 5/6.
 
Personally I find the Civ VI barbarian spam tedious.

I find Barbarians play a big part in making the early game tactically interesting. It's not just fighting the barbs, it's also having barbs stymie my opponents, or being a reason to keep a City State around because they're controlling the barbs, and it's also balancing timing the clearing of barbs for Eurekas and Era Score.

I know this is a well worn topic, but the "problem" with barbs is just that they're so one dimensional. It would be more interesting if the appearance of barbs was somehow linked to how much "control" you had over territory and / or how happy you're people were and / or cultural influence (the "barbs only appear when you're not watching the map" is a poor proxy for this). It would also be more interesting if you could interact with barbs more, a bit like how you interact with City States - e.g. it would be great if you could buy off barbs from attacking you, or recruit them like mercenaries etc.

Currently, Barbs and Good Huts have a fairly straightforward game mechanic function which they fulfill perfectly well. They are basically "Wandering Monsters" designed to make the early turns more interesting and challenging. And yeah, they do that pretty well. But you can see how they could be a lot better. Is that something FXS should prioritise? Yeah, don't know. I think maybe it would make things better, but perhaps more interesting and more complex barbs would end up being a lot of work and wouldn't actually make the game all that much better.
 
They are basically "Wandering Monsters" designed to make the early turns more interesting and challenging.

On larger maps they actually keep popping for ages because the map doesn't fill in by the medieval era like it does on standard settings.

In terms of the one-dimensional-ness - have you played Total War? In that, there's a concept of regional instability that's essentially generated by conflict. Applying this to Civ, if your cities are happy (amenities) and at peace with their neighbours, it would decrease barb spawn but if you're at war and have low amenities, wars can end because of general chaos rather than one side winning. I really like that idea actually :)
 
I dislike how empty the map is most games. It feels weird (and is totally ahistorical) that land is just "empty" until someone puts a City down. Loyalty sort of adds another dimension, but it only really matters if you're forward settling. To me, the map should generally have people already living on it, and the player putting down cities should impact what happens with those people (e.g. increasing your growth rate as people move to your city, or spawning barb camps).

The expanding into and claiming empty map is hardwired into 4X games and particularly Civ. But its an area where I feel something more could be done (although I don't know what, really) and it really undermines Civ's historical feel.

Back to the OP, I've now had my backside handed to me in three or four games in a row (playing immortal). Every time, it's been a situation where I went on the offensive but lacked resources, did not have a clear tech advantage and or the enemy was in difficult terrain for some reason (e.g. choke points, marshes, hills and jungle). It's the flipping ranged units. The AI can just pump out archers, and if you can't get momentum going, the AI's archers just chew you up.

It's Freaking Awesome! I mean, the AI doesn't feel like it's got smarter. But I can't just take it for granted I can smash the AI. I either have to have a plan and decisive advantage … or I have to accept I can't dominant my neighbour as I'd like and either wait until I can or just do something else. It's a big improvement.

Of course. Once you get past the medieval era and get to some properly punchy units, the AI collapses again. But at least early war is more entertaining.
 
I remember after a patch a couple of years ago I played a game where the AI’s defensive archer game was superb. At last, they have fixed the AI..... but no. The monkeys banging on keyboards got it right for a civ in a game. It was nice and occaisionally happens but as said well by @sethryclaus it’s just not that simple to resolve.

Game speed is an interesting one with difficulty. Slower speeds allow time to think but if you get your strat wrong by too many turns it takes a long time to turn it around. Building things and gaining benefits take 3x as long but your units move at normal speed. On the opposite side a fast game speed means you can build to counter your mistakes faster but the AI can really churn out the units which make it trickier.

So it seems small/tiny online speed maps may make for the harder games. Personally I find the middle works well in other ways but that’s because I am more a mechanic than a fighter.
 
With respect to game speed, as a career epic speed player (whether playing peaceful or aggresive) I can say it overall it allows me to play at a higher level on more difficult maps than I could on standard. Tweaks to era score at slower speeds in the last patch woke me up to this when I hit a lot more early DAs than I was used to.

I also freely muck around with the advanced start, particularly in choosing AI's to match up against and how much land there is. Raising sea levels while deleting one or more opponents can make a world feel normal in terms of land/civs ratio but allow for more religions and natural wonders per civ. Or replacing an AI civ with 2-3 more CS's (can be very overpowered and broken).

Stacking the deck in my favour this way allows me to play at immortal or even deity while limiting my need to make use of chopping, early warmongering, pillaging etc. So can win the game but also look at a civ I've built that would be worth living in (immersion quality), and of course to keep myself challenged.
 
Yea, sorry if I tilted ye a bit. I read your post and realised that it looked like I was replying to you. That really was not my intention.
I won Immortal last night in 6 hours on small/standard/Pangaea with Rome so I have to completely concede your points as well :)

I was making more of a general comment. Here's another factor to consider: I decided to play a duel inland sea map to get the achievements I was missing for game size and map type. I won reasonably quickly just by taking the opposing capital, but one thing I noticed was that Chandragupta had about twice as many cities as I did - but was about even with me in both research and culture. This isn't a function of map size or speed - it's simply the AI making much less effective use of its cities than a player who isn't doing any more than just building districts and improving the landscape. It's routine to capture cities with too few districts because the AI develops poorly.
 
I don't play a lot lately so my experience in civ6 and espescially civ6GS is very limited.
I have the feeling it's getting easier and harder at the same time though. Looking at the civ series as a whole, and GS as a continuation of the trent, its getting more and more complicated, you could translate that as harder. At the same time i have the feeling it's getting easier as this complication provides more opportunity to optimize and outperform the AI who still sucks as much as it did in civ2.
 
One thing about barbarians - it's their naval units that are particularly troublesome in the early game, and they can make sea trade routes quite unviable. If you try hunting them, you get jumped by two or three quadriremes with fatal consequences. A human player will eventually tend to hunt down all barbarian camps to stop them spawning, but AI players are not good at this. It even seems to me that the CS are better at wiping out camps than AI civs. Left alone, eventually the barbarians start throwing nuclear submarines around in the late game.

I have been experimenting with autoplay games to see what the AI civs get up to in the early game. For all that players complain about the difficulties of growing a civ under barbarian attack, the AI often has the same problem. In one game I saw two barbarian slingers reduce Tenochtitlan to about 2 hit points. If only there had been a melee unit in the vicinity, the city would have fallen..
 
One thing about barbarians - it's their naval units that are particularly troublesome in the early game, and they can make sea trade routes quite unviable. If you try hunting them, you get jumped by two or three quadriremes with fatal consequences. A human player will eventually tend to hunt down all barbarian camps to stop them spawning, but AI players are not good at this. It even seems to me that the CS are better at wiping out camps than AI civs. Left alone, eventually the barbarians start throwing nuclear submarines around in the late game.

I have been experimenting with autoplay games to see what the AI civs get up to in the early game. For all that players complain about the difficulties of growing a civ under barbarian attack, the AI often has the same problem. In one game I saw two barbarian slingers reduce Tenochtitlan to about 2 hit points. If only there had been a melee unit in the vicinity, the city would have fallen..
I have seen barb quads constantly reducing a city to 0 HP 3 times.
On one occasion I took the town with my galley and bought an archer.
 
I play on King. Pre-patch had no problem getting a religion. Now i can't make it to a religion or if i do all my cites get converting by the AI before i can build a temple to produce missionaries and defend my religion.

Everything has gotten harder. I hate to move down to Prince but i can't win on King anymore. It's too frustrating for me to be fun.
 
only a shrine is necessary to produce missionaries. Defending the religion isn't too bad on King if you build a missionary soon as possible and spread it to your other cities asap. But it does help to have a source of additional faith either through a pantheon or good adjacency bonus or civ bonus.
 
One thing about barbarians - it's their naval units that are particularly troublesome in the early game, and they can make sea trade routes quite unviable. If you try hunting them, you get jumped by two or three quadriremes with fatal consequences. A human player will eventually tend to hunt down all barbarian camps to stop them spawning, but AI players are not good at this. It even seems to me that the CS are better at wiping out camps than AI civs. Left alone, eventually the barbarians start throwing nuclear submarines around in the late game.

I have been experimenting with autoplay games to see what the AI civs get up to in the early game. For all that players complain about the difficulties of growing a civ under barbarian attack, the AI often has the same problem. In one game I saw two barbarian slingers reduce Tenochtitlan to about 2 hit points. If only there had been a melee unit in the vicinity, the city would have fallen..
This.

I do remember a game in which I went to war against gilgabro.
After I took 1 city, I intended to make peace then I saw something.... Or, dare I say, I saw nothing.
There were no units coming to reinforce so I pressed further to the capital.

Then I saw a ridiculous amount of barbs, An entire army with cavalry/melee units and even a battering ram. :lol:

I immediately converted a few using an apostle and took out Gilgabro's capital. The rest fell soon after.
Apparently, Gilga's territory had been ravaged while we were warring in the first city.
 
Start location is absolutely essential to being able to win at Emperor and above.

Early game AI absolutely bombards you with unit spam precisely when you are least able to deal with it. I believe this is Firaxis' answer to the AI's inefficient use of units because sometimes you get so overwhelmed by unit spam that you just physically don't have enough production to deal with it.

It's like being slowly and painfully blugeoned to death with a blunt instrument.
 
Can anybody say CATAPULT, CATAPULT, CATAPULT?

This is the state of play after I've already killed half a dozen of them:

catapults.jpg


The only saving grace is the AI doesn't actually use them - if it did, it would wipe out my units through sheer attrition and it would be impossible to win.

Strange logic here: give the AI the ability to make dozens of units but program it not to actually use them in order to give the human a chance.
 
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