Have firaxis been cowards regarding religion?

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  • Firaxis should have made more differences in the religions!

    Votes: 91 37.8%
  • The religions are fine as they are!

    Votes: 150 62.2%

  • Total voters
    241
Older than Dirt said:
All other religions are attempts by man to reach God, rather than God's reaching out to those who are not seeking Him. Read the whole Bible with an open mind. Then read other religious writings and compare. Then let's talk.

Well yeah. Not gonna go into it too heavily, but, lets say I have read a few religious texts, from a few different traditions, and quite simply, not all religions are an attempt "by man to reach god," not by far. To stick to game examples; Buddhism and Taoism. And just because I see it soooo much; people who argue these aren't religions because they don't set up some system of deities (depending on the sect/branch, of course) have never studied religion in any real sense, and certainly not in an academic sense.
 
Rast said:
This would also allow civ to represent some of the more popular newer faiths that have come into being with the greater tolerance that modern Western society has...

Modern Western Society has greater tolerance than who???
 
Perfect_Blue said:
Modern Western Society has greater tolerance than who???

Medieval Western Civilization
Pretty much any civilization from 2000+ years ago
Much of the Middle East
 
zyphyr said:
Pretty much any civilization from 2000+ years ago
I recommend a study on Alexander's conquest (it's topical, since we are talking about civ). Then you could tell me how much more tolerant is today's society to other people religions (especially defeated civilizations' religions).

In fact, wherever and whenever religion was much involved into the state there was 0 tolerance - in the other cases you could find tolerance and coexistence of many religions.
 
A Silly Goose said:
There's a difference between one man's invisible pink unicorn and another's great space slug. However, God is neither of those, when it comes to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--I mean, there's a reason the Christian Bible's Old Testament is all about Jewish guys.

In other words, the differences between the three major montheistic religions do not concern the nature of God Himself, but rather the nature of his prophets--namely, Jesus and Mohammed.

Actually they Do concern the Nature of God Himself, (Especially as concerning Christianity, which claims that 1-Jesus Christ was both a man and God, making God immanent in a way that Judaism and Islam would reject. 2- That God exists in 3 persons, also rejected by Judaism and Islam)

It also concerns how God relates to man (which is an important part of who He is) (in vastly general oversimplified terms)
The Jewish God favors a chosen people as long as they are basically good*.
The Christian God favors people independent of their goodness*.
The Muslim God favors people as long as they are basically good*.
*the definition of what makes them good also varies but that begins to get into a difficult situation

These are Very different Persons... so if they are all the One God, the not all of them can really exist, and at least two are merely ideas in people's heads.


Now there are LOTS of significant similarities... but those do not make them the same. (However, as I said, telling monotheists they worship the same God is trivial, they don't believe there are different Gods to worship)
 
2- That God exists in 3 persons, also rejected by Judaism and Islam)

Uhm No, One God the "Father" the rest are part of the Trinity and are supposed to explain how Jesus can also be god and the position of Holy spirit in all of this. besides call ing them persons is at best inacurate, at worst its wrong. I would never call the "Spirit" a person, would you.... now howabout calling God a person, thats just plain wrong my freind.

How now would you rationalize that pretty much all three religions have the old testament in one form or another in their scripture? Kindof hard to say that they are three different gods, one for jew, muslim, christian. soooooo I guess that the God has to be the same, or I call "schinanigans" :)
cheers
 
N3pomuk said:
Uhm No, One God the "Father" the rest are part of the Trinity and are supposed to explain how Jesus can also be god and the position of Holy spirit in all of this. besides call ing them persons is at best inacurate, at worst its wrong. I would never call the "Spirit" a person, would you.... now howabout calling God a person, thats just plain wrong my freind.

I got lost in the first sentence of this part but as far as spirit being a person, if you would not call a spirit a person then you must not believe people have souls. As your soul is your true "person". I would not call a spirit a human but I would call it a person. Even the spirit of an animal would even be considered a person. It is the persona of the spirit that makes one a person not a physical state. So even God is a person even through that definition.

The Old Testament claims that God made man in his own image to walk beside God in heaven. When the chosen people are granted passage to heaven they will be equal to him in the sense of rank among everything ELSE. However, it is his kingdom and he is King. So basically rank is:

God.
Humans.
Everything else.

How now would you rationalize that pretty much all three religions have the old testament in one form or another in their scripture? Kindof hard to say that they are three different gods, one for jew, muslim, christian. soooooo I guess that the God has to be the same, or I call "schinanigans" :)
cheers

The same scriptures claim that people will be saying that they follow the true God or "claim His name" and he warns they will be wrong. He has put in the bible a warning that people will take his word to mold it to their benefit. Also, to be careful of them.

Basically, when the bible was written alot of people used it for their own goals. 3 faiths split up and went their own way with their own interpretations 2 of which went in a way that suited their own goals. Or were just simply misguided by their own selfishness.
 
It quite clear there is no God as before him there were other Gods and they didn't complain when people stopped worshiping them. God is an idea that makes life easier by giving an explanation to the unexplainable.:king:
 
religions...
i think firaxis did well by doing all religions in game equals to each other. they knew that this specific topic is very difficulty because of everybody sensibility.

by the way i'm not firaxis...
why should humanity still rely on religion like a 30 years old boy still rely on his mother??
i hope the time will come soon when nobody on earth will "believe" faithfully and blindfully.
because as a humain being we have only two choices when facing a question:
- we know
- we don't know
 
kernok said:
religions...
i think firaxis did well by doing all religions in game equals to each other. they knew that this specific topic is very difficulty because of everybody sensibility.

by the way i'm not firaxis...
why should humanity still rely on religion like a 30 years old boy still rely on his mother??
i hope the time will come soon when nobody on earth will "believe" faithfully and blindfully.
because as a humain being we have only two choices when facing a question:
- we know
- we don't know

Some places on earth the mother must rely on their sons when they reach the 30 year old age. You proberbly come form some sick country where the old ones gets seperated from the rest of the community.
 
Haha, dilemma - to make everyone happy best ways is to add bonuses to religions. But here are some troubles with atheists and separation of clergy from goverment. So need penalties. And here we go:
"Allah decapitate and castratel u! We are not agressive fanatix!"
"You'll burn in hell for your unholy barking! Bruno ignited himsef accidently!"
"You are pathetic non-human goy! I'll sell you poison with discount for calling jews trading frauders so you can commit suicide!"
and so on... I would respect Firaxis more if they've got some guts to spit on that mob and implement penalties to religions.
 
Inqvisitor said:
It is not too difficult to see how such traits could be easily used in gameplay for these religions (in case a cure is ever developed for Political Correctness).

This statement pretty much sums it up.
By not giving each religion an invdividual identity Firaxis is only comforming to the plague of political correctness.
 
xonixs said:
Some places on earth the mother must rely on their sons when they reach the 30 year old age. You proberbly come form some sick country where the old ones gets seperated from the rest of the community.


The ever familiar rant coming from a faith blinded follower of "the religion of peace".
 
holy off topic batman.

i'm good at off-topic though. i lead many topics on other forums astray why the heck not here?

to the poster who is trying to claim that the God that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship is the same God:

2000 years ago there lived a man. he was born to a Jewish couple and led a life of the utmost perfection as one who believes the self-evident truths should live. as the man said himself "The most important one," Jesus answered, "is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbour as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."

Jesus and Judaism are linked by these comments and his heritage. therefore a Christian can say he worships the same God as the Jews. but the Jews, conversely, do not believe in the Holy Trinity. if they so chose they could say that Christians are worshipping false idols because they do not believe Jesus to be part of their One True God.

likewise, the Muslims can claim that Allah is the same God as Christians and Jews. But, also like the above example, Christians can claim that the God of muslims is a demon sent to lead them astray, or the Jews can claim that just because they believe in a "monotheistic" concept does not mean that it is THEIR God.


basically, it's all relative. to claim otherwise is to blindly follow middle school textbooks without actually learning reality.
 
Would someone please start winning this conversation so I can convert and get to "+6: We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith" status?
 
As the discord on this thread shows, undifferentiated religions would seem to be the most prudent choice open to Firaxis.

That said, some minor positive (negative traits would be simply too contentious) trait attached to each religion would add flavor and depth to the game.

A simple idea might be to assign each religion a watered-down version of the existing leader traits (50% of standard bonus/ no building bonus?). Which, of course, brings up game-balance issues...
 
zx1111 said:
Christanity conbtributed to advance of science? Just an opposite of historical truth.
In medival era, Christanity was prime hiderance of advnce of science.
In that era, Arabia of Middle East was far ahead of Europe in science, math, astronomy, chemistry, literatures.
There was no notable scientific advancement in Europ in that time. That is why we call the era of Christanity domanated Europe as "Dark Age".
Christan faith and its insane passion was prime cause of medival "Crusade" war. So it shuold be easier to make a war using religious fever of Christanity.
Chirstanity should be -10% science, +2 happniness, -10% Military Unit production cost.
Isam should take +10% science advantage. Once the influence power of Christanity weakens in Europe at end of medival era, advanced scienctific knowledge and cultural heritage preserved by Isam people during the Dark Age had helped Europe to wake up from Dark Age and reach to Renassance Era..


While at one time the followers of Christianity were behind technologically, it wasn't necessarily directly caused by religion (although the church didn't help much).

The reason that Europe (and hence, Christianity) fell behind was that the Roman Empire fell apart for good in the sixth century. It (Europe) was brought out partially by King Charlemagne in the eighth and ninth centuries. His reign brought safety to many of the old trade routes and allowed information to once again travel. This opening up of the old trade routes allowed Europe to catch up technologically.

The real reason that that those of Christianity eventually took a commanding lead over most of the rest of the world (remember that the Chinese were still isolated by their own rulers) was that Gutenburg invented the printing press. This is typically noted as the time of Europe's complete emergence from the dark ages, although they had been pretty much safe for a couple hundred years by now. The printing press allowed that information no longer had to travel from place to place by word of mouth. It also meant that the wealthy, once the sole owners of the world's handwritten books, were no longer the only people who had access to information and technology. With information available to more people the ideas began to flow.

The Chinese are actually the ones who gave Gutenberg the idea for the printing press. In fact, they had developed the printing press earlier, however they used wooden blocks which would deteriorate quickly. Despite the fact that the Chinese had a commanding lead in iron working, they never got the idea that iron or steel could be used as print blocks rather than wood. Since the wooden blocks weren't really a viable option, the Chinese eventually gave up on the idea. The Chinese system of writing using symbols rather than letters also didn't lend itself well to block printing, which further complicated matters.

While one could certainly make a case that there were instances where the Christian Churches held back new ideas, you could say the same about any religion. Some Islamic sects keep their women out of the loop, so to speak. That's half of their population that is not schooled and is unable to add to the technology count, as it relates to Civilization terms.

My point is that it wasn't Christianity that held Europe back during the dark ages, it was the insecurity of Europe and their system of Lords and Serfs. Having no true leaders, most Europeans turned to the church. The church is about worshipping a higher being; not about discovery. Christianity had little to do with Europe's laspes during this time.
 
gotmatt said:
to the poster who is trying to claim that the God that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship is the same God:

[snip]

Jesus and Judaism are linked by these comments and his heritage. therefore a Christian can say he worships the same God as the Jews. but the Jews, conversely, do not believe in the Holy Trinity. if they so chose they could say that Christians are worshipping false idols because they do not believe Jesus to be part of their One True God.

likewise, the Muslims can claim that Allah is the same God as Christians and Jews. But, also like the above example, Christians can claim that the God of muslims is a demon sent to lead them astray, or the Jews can claim that just because they believe in a "monotheistic" concept does not mean that it is THEIR God.

There is little denying that Jews and Christians believe in the same God. Since Jesus was a Jew it is pretty undeniable.
Likewise, since most of the Koran is a reminder of what is in the bible, there is little denying that Islam worships the same God as Judaism and Christianity.

While Christians could, for some reason, claim that Allah is "a demon", they do not claim this. Furthermore, the Jews do not make the claim that you point out. It's pretty much accepted that these three religions worship the same God.

The only major differences are that Jews don't worship Christ or consider Mohammad a prophet (and the last part I just don't feel like looking up; they might consider him), and that there are certain lines in the Koran that can be interpreted in ways that Christians disagree with. It's all the same God, but there are just different interpretations of his message.
 
marioflag said:
Personally i understand why firaxis didn't gave for every religion a specific bonus, imagine for example if islam for example was associated to a warmongering trait, probably we could see worldwide protests.
What really pisses me in this game is that having more than one religion in a game is an advantage factor and hasn't any negative effect in the game.
I managed one time to have 6 religion in my cities and i was able to reach a cultural victory before 1400.At least there should be some negative effect to happiness or something else in having more than one religion for city. Hope that one day this thing would be added

There is a pretty significant downside to having multiple religions. For every religion that you have someone who has a different religion gives you a negative in relations for not having their religion. If you have six religions available, then there are usually five rivals who hold it against you. If you don't have that religion they cannot give you a negative for it.
 
This thread has been here several times in the past. They all deteriorate to arguing over the virtues of certain religions when people begin to try to say what the benefits/detriments to each religion should be. Imagine if Firaxis had put these into the game when we argue about it in speculation here.

Firaxis are not "cowards". They did not take the easy way out. They decided that it was impossible to make the differences in religions realistic. Any difference between any religions would be stereotypical, as most religions, at their core, say basically the same thing. It's not the religions that make Jews Jews or Muslims Muslims; it's the people within those religions.

While the people of certain religions at certain points in history have had leads or lagged behind in technology, it wasn't because of the technology, but because of the people. While Darwinism certainly counters Christian and Jewish beliefs, it certainly didn't stop Darwin's theories from becoming pretty mainstream. Even devout Christians are begining to find cop-outs for this with "Intelligent Design."

The point is that religion is not what should give benefits or detriments to society, and hence, civilizations, it is the people within those civilizations. While the Crusades were certainly a Christian venture against Muslims, it is not the message of Christianity, but of the people who ran the church at that time. The same can be said for problems in the Middle East right now. The Koran specifically denounces violence. However certain radicals turned the words of the Koran around to benefit their personal beliefs.
 
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