LightSpectra
me autem minui
I don't see why "Israel" can't compose both the kingdom and the modern state. The German civilization has both a Holy Roman Emperor and a chancellor.
Hebrew civilization
- Thread starter rightstoff
- Start date
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
it wouldn't make a difference to me if Israel was in or not, but because people are making a huge hoopla about this, thats why Firaxis hasn't put Israel in the game. yet.
well, still, i don't know if Muslim extremists would want to bother searching for every Civilization CD in the world and break it to pieces.
LightSpectra
me autem minui
Whether or not you like Israel, they were an extremely important kingdom.
I don't like China, in fact I hate the People's Republic for its atrocities, but I can admit they deserve a spot in the game.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
don't take me wrong on this, its not like i hate israel with a unimaginable hatred, but i will have to detest your comparison with China. and also, i hate the PRC very much too, though i have to say they still "get the job done", however terribly.
China, in the game, is not represented by the PRC. why would there be Qin Shi Huang? why is their UU a cho-ko-nu, then? China is not just Mao and PRC committing murdurous barbaric and inhuman atrocities surpassing Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan in front of the world's nose even though they cant do anything.
anyhow, to the comparison to Israel - China is a huge chunk of land, encompassing millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of people, resources, etc. etc. Israel is a small nation, encompassing a few million people.
unlike Israel, China has survived as pretty much a politcal entity, even when it was invaded. it has survived, one way or another, 4500 years, at least; Israel, on the other hand, stayed alive for a number of centuries, then disappeared, only to appear within the last 60 years or so. historically, China had completely direct influence on many neighborhooding regions and countries - Vietnam, Japan, and Korea for example. Israel, on the other hand, had indirect influence on nations, many of whom paid tribute or at least had quite some resepct for China. Yes, christianity and islam are very influenced by Judaism, but that's about it. after that, the two religions turn their own ways. do we see Rome, Arabia, Persia, England, and Germany paying tribute to the Jews? no. do we see Europeans and Middle Easterners everywhere speaking with Hebrew technical terms? no. but in Vietnam, Japan, and Korea, pretty much every technical term is somehow Chinese, and much of these languages have other terms originating from CHinese, even though their language group is not the Chinese language group. take my native tongue, Vietnamese, for example. in Vietnamese, the word for "mafia boss" is "Dai Nhan"; in Chinese, it is "Da Ren"; or, take the Vietnamese word for America - "My Quoc", which, in Chinese, is "Mei Guo". the Jews never accomplished this to the Western World.
China is too big to miss in the game, unlike Israel. if civilization could only had three civs, and if China wasn't in, then i wouldn't consider it a worthy game.
again, its not like i fanatically hate Israel. if it were in the game, i can say it deserves it, though probably for a later exansion. the jews were important, i'll admit that, unlike others. but one cannot compare Israel to a nation like China.
thank you for reading,
cybrxkhan
quite frankly...
if you look at the most important civilizations/cultures in the entire history of the world, the hebrews are right up there with china egypt and rome. it is a joke that they have not been included in the game, despite their lack of so called 'strenght"
if you look at the most important civilizations/cultures in the entire history of the world, the hebrews are right up there with china egypt and rome. it is a joke that they have not been included in the game, despite their lack of so called 'strenght"
LightSpectra
me autem minui
True, if there could only be ten civilizations, I would not put Israel in. But come on, we added the Celts, Netherlands, Sumeria and Zulu. Israel is way more significant than all four of them.
rabidveggie
King
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2007
- Messages
- 697
ZB2 you anti-semitic or something? Cause in the AH debate you seemed pretty unsympathetic to the Jews and the holocaust. When you say you vote no state a reason. I've already stated my reasons in a previous post.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
i wasn't saying that israel is not in the game because i think it is not as influential as china. i am saying you cannot compare China to Israel. you cannot, you simply cannot. look, im not a chinese myself, im a viet, and we viets hate china for invading us a gazillion times, but i will say that comparing china to israel is not a good comparison.
and of course, i will agree that Hebrews are important to the history of the world, whether you like it or not. i do not support either sides of this argument, it doesn't matter to me if they're in or not. the only point i am trying to make is that you can't compare Israel to China.
however, i would like to say that "significance" does not necessarily mean a civilization is in. LightSpectra your very example of the Celts, Zulus, etc., etc., shows that obviously significance is not a determining factor in choosing civs. we may never know why the civs choosen are the ones that are choosen. maybe we should ask the firaxis people on that, no?
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
let me add this, if you will...
to all who support Israel's inclusion and say that it is very influential, i ask you, what important things did Israel achieve while it was a civilization, as in, a political or semi-political independent entity (ancient and modern)?
im not saying this in a "ha, what could Israel possibly have" voice, im saying this in a "hmm... i'd like to expand my knowledge and understanding" voice, so don't go bashing at me, please.
also, i would add, if Israel is ever included, i would prefer only the ancient Israel to be represented, and not the modern one, because the modern one is deemed too "contreversial", or, more rather, people would fear it would become contreversial
to all who support Israel's inclusion and say that it is very influential, i ask you, what important things did Israel achieve while it was a civilization, as in, a political or semi-political independent entity (ancient and modern)?
im not saying this in a "ha, what could Israel possibly have" voice, im saying this in a "hmm... i'd like to expand my knowledge and understanding" voice, so don't go bashing at me, please.
also, i would add, if Israel is ever included, i would prefer only the ancient Israel to be represented, and not the modern one, because the modern one is deemed too "contreversial", or, more rather, people would fear it would become contreversial
:im sorry but may somebody tell me why ancient israel is important ive never heard of its acheivments and i dont mean this in bad or condesending way. all i know is that they were ruled by the romans then later the area called israel became under control of the arabs then the ottomans then the british and then modern day israel. by the way zionism is one thing and judiasm is one thing and zionism is a relatively new movement thats why itll be ok to put in a old hebrew civilization(altough i dont know what they did in history
).
).
mitsho
Deity
It is the area between Great Empires and has been there forever. Many cultural traits developed there, or rather it was from that area that they spread over the world to be all-influencing. The Bible of course being the most notorious. But after all, these things of course do not compare to for example Egypt or Rome. This doesn't matter though because we also have the Zulu, Sioux or Celts in the game... 
It's not importance that decides inclusion into game, not greatness or whatever, but there is a whole list of factors that makes Firaxis decide the way they decide. Other arguments for Israel thus are "continuity or discontinuity, but definitely a own cultural set", "Jews are an "important" part of modern US-society (from the nanny to the OC, in many tv-series is somewhere a Jewish character)" "King Solomon/David is a cool character that might attract people", "..." Please Note, these are just reasons I just thought, they might be wrong in core, my point is that you should take a step back from your historical point of view.
mick
It's not importance that decides inclusion into game, not greatness or whatever, but there is a whole list of factors that makes Firaxis decide the way they decide. Other arguments for Israel thus are "continuity or discontinuity, but definitely a own cultural set", "Jews are an "important" part of modern US-society (from the nanny to the OC, in many tv-series is somewhere a Jewish character)" "King Solomon/David is a cool character that might attract people", "..." Please Note, these are just reasons I just thought, they might be wrong in core, my point is that you should take a step back from your historical point of view.
mick
its not really anti-semitism, but anti-zoinist and for my own rasonale reasons.
There is no arrogance or blindness to thought with what i believe say or do but all with my own percieved logic and rationale.
--
I believe that a hebrew nation could not beat others into the game bassed on the statments allready made by the posters in this thread. the nation has not had enough influence, or left a lasting heritage, dominated its era with its presence, constructed almost godlike structures, conquered outmatching enemies in war, brought peace time stability and economic blyss to its partners.
compared to say other civilizations at their time of existence; Greeko-Maecynai, Rome, Egypt, China.
mitsho
Deity
Again, I repeat myself:
Please take a step back from your viewpoint as a Historian. This a video game, not a history book or historical simulation. Look at it more from a point of view of modern pop-culture: Look how the leaders speak or look, wouldn't you think Gandhi and Genghis are overstereotyped (let's not speak of Isabella), Moctezuma is displayed as we remember/see him through our modern pop-culture glasses (Aztec =bloodthirsty), was he really that way? Look at the Al Gore reference, the Space elevator, etc. ... I think Firaxis made that step away from "historicity" (whatever that may be) out of purpose, it is after all a game.
Btw. Zionism is at the moment a relatively minor movement, but I understand that you want to differentiate between Jews/Judaism and Israelis/Israel. I think you were referring to the latter with your statement which is as well nonsense, modern Israeli society has been influenced a lot by Zionism but it is defined and seen (itself) in another way.
m
Please take a step back from your viewpoint as a Historian. This a video game, not a history book or historical simulation. Look at it more from a point of view of modern pop-culture: Look how the leaders speak or look, wouldn't you think Gandhi and Genghis are overstereotyped (let's not speak of Isabella), Moctezuma is displayed as we remember/see him through our modern pop-culture glasses (Aztec =bloodthirsty), was he really that way? Look at the Al Gore reference, the Space elevator, etc. ... I think Firaxis made that step away from "historicity" (whatever that may be) out of purpose, it is after all a game.
Btw. Zionism is at the moment a relatively minor movement, but I understand that you want to differentiate between Jews/Judaism and Israelis/Israel. I think you were referring to the latter with your statement which is as well nonsense, modern Israeli society has been influenced a lot by Zionism but it is defined and seen (itself) in another way.
m
Rancid Sushi
Last year's catch
Wow, on how many levels are you wrong? Let me count the ways:
-Not a strong influence? Judaism is a very influential religion, and I'd say Jews were 'influential' enough that Hitler saw fit to scapegoat them for Germany's problems.
-Domination: During the height of Hebrew power, IIRC the tribes of Israel dominated all of Palestine. For that time, such a land mass would have been considerable.
-Construction: This is a matter of culture. I believe the Hebrew people did not construct massive wonders because of their aversion to idol worship. However, by Biblical accounts the Temple of Solomon was a grand thing to behold.
-Lasting Heritage: Hebrew culture and language has survive for thousands of years and outlasted many other cultures that were around when they conquered Canaan for the first time.
-Conquered stronger enemies: The Hebrews were known for having some of the most brilliant tacticians of their time. Almost always outnumbered, they often used deception and intimate knowledge of terrain to defeat more powerful enemies such as the Canaanites and the Philistines.
-economic peace and stability: heh? We're talking the pre-classical era here, did anyone bring peace and stability? Seems like this was a time to kill or be killed, and the Hebrews did the former very well which is why they're still around.
[Wonka] You lose! Good day sir! [/Wonka]
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
remember, all, i will just say that if we are stating reasons for Israel/Hebrews to be in the game, we cannot use what they did during the Diaspora, because then they were not a "civilization" per se. you all can agree with me on that, i am sure.
and on a lighter note (rare in such a thread), i think the Jews also have one other important contribution to the world... Sid. yes, for those who didn't know, Sid Meier, the father of Civilization, is Jewish. so, really, without the Jews, we wouoldn't have Civilization (the game, not the actual thing ) as we know it, and we wouldn't even have this thread here.
but, continuing along...
(note: anything i say below that may be considered objective is in no way objective to Israel's inclusion, but simply my (hopefully) unbiased views for the sake of learning and understanding)
like what i said above, your second part, i am assuming, applies to Jews' influentiality during the Diaspora, and not whiel they were a "independant political entity"
well, i will say a ton of other civilizations did that too, but i'm interested in knowning the extent of Jewish domination in that area at the time, because your description seemed a bit vague...
well, i'll agree.
thats true...
they couldn't compare too... well, ever heard of the Vietnamese?
pre-classical era, because of the distant antiquity of the era and sometimes vagueness one gets from lack of information, cannot necessarily be considered kill or be killed. an earlier (western/middle eastern) "classical age of civilization" occured around c. 1500 - 1100 BCE, when the powers of Egypt, Hittites, Mittani, Assyrians, etc. were competing for power in the Middle East, not unlike the Europeans in the late 1800s or America and Russia during the Cold War. this may be a "kill or be killed" situation, but their were no total wars of destruction during this time, i am quite sure; destructive wars, but no "Total Wars".
there was much peace and stability during these years, despite the wars, especially Egypt, which reached its supposed "Greatest Golden Age" (although Egyptians themsleves considered the earlier Middle Kingdom even more of a golden age). this was when the valley of the kings were built, massive monuments at Abu Simbel (by one of the bestest propagandists/fakers in history, Rameses II). this was when trade began to get going, from Egypt to Ethiopia to Greece to Mesopotamia to the Indus.
now, when the Israelites came and had their kingdom, this old world order had collapsed; the Hittites were dead as a political power; Egypt and Mesopotamia was in political disorder; tribes of all sorts (like the Sea Peoples) were running around. this continued for a few centuries, until the Neo-Assyrians, Babylonian, and Medic Empires began to give some united stability before giving way to the Persian and Greek Empires.
anyhow, my point is, the world was stable in the pre-classical era. it was, believe me.
and i think one must also credit the Hebrews survival to the Diaspora, because going to all different places from China to Spain makes it harder for people who hate you to kill you.
so, back to my original stance on this issue: to me, Israel is as significant as a number of contenders for a civ, and i will have to say significance has very litte to do with choosing a civ (except for no-brainers like China over... er... Vietnam). and thus, i consider all our arguments over the significance of Israel somewhat pointless in the debate over whether it shuld be in.
i think what should be debated is what will be the reaction when its in, thats what i think people are more concerned about, not whether it is great or not. because, if we can have a ton of threads, a number of pages on, on this topic, we know theres quite a "debate" going on.
however, i think we should consider Firaxis "semi-pseudo-history" take on things. because there are many stereotypes, overexagerations, and pop culture thingies, if Firaxis put Israel in, wouldn't people, even Jews, view it as offensive? i think that is the one reason why Israel was never in. however, this is just a guess. what do you guys think?
cybrxkhan
and on a lighter note (rare in such a thread), i think the Jews also have one other important contribution to the world... Sid. yes, for those who didn't know, Sid Meier, the father of Civilization, is Jewish. so, really, without the Jews, we wouoldn't have Civilization (the game, not the actual thing
) as we know it, and we wouldn't even have this thread here.but, continuing along...
(note: anything i say below that may be considered objective is in no way objective to Israel's inclusion, but simply my (hopefully) unbiased views for the sake of learning and understanding)
like what i said above, your second part, i am assuming, applies to Jews' influentiality during the Diaspora, and not whiel they were a "independant political entity"
well, i will say a ton of other civilizations did that too, but i'm interested in knowning the extent of Jewish domination in that area at the time, because your description seemed a bit vague...
well, i'll agree.
thats true...
they couldn't compare too... well, ever heard of the Vietnamese?
pre-classical era, because of the distant antiquity of the era and sometimes vagueness one gets from lack of information, cannot necessarily be considered kill or be killed. an earlier (western/middle eastern) "classical age of civilization" occured around c. 1500 - 1100 BCE, when the powers of Egypt, Hittites, Mittani, Assyrians, etc. were competing for power in the Middle East, not unlike the Europeans in the late 1800s or America and Russia during the Cold War. this may be a "kill or be killed" situation, but their were no total wars of destruction during this time, i am quite sure; destructive wars, but no "Total Wars".
there was much peace and stability during these years, despite the wars, especially Egypt, which reached its supposed "Greatest Golden Age" (although Egyptians themsleves considered the earlier Middle Kingdom even more of a golden age). this was when the valley of the kings were built, massive monuments at Abu Simbel (by one of the bestest propagandists/fakers in history, Rameses II). this was when trade began to get going, from Egypt to Ethiopia to Greece to Mesopotamia to the Indus.
now, when the Israelites came and had their kingdom, this old world order had collapsed; the Hittites were dead as a political power; Egypt and Mesopotamia was in political disorder; tribes of all sorts (like the Sea Peoples) were running around. this continued for a few centuries, until the Neo-Assyrians, Babylonian, and Medic Empires began to give some united stability before giving way to the Persian and Greek Empires.
anyhow, my point is, the world was stable in the pre-classical era. it was, believe me.
and i think one must also credit the Hebrews survival to the Diaspora, because going to all different places from China to Spain makes it harder for people who hate you to kill you.
so, back to my original stance on this issue: to me, Israel is as significant as a number of contenders for a civ, and i will have to say significance has very litte to do with choosing a civ (except for no-brainers like China over... er... Vietnam). and thus, i consider all our arguments over the significance of Israel somewhat pointless in the debate over whether it shuld be in.
i think what should be debated is what will be the reaction when its in, thats what i think people are more concerned about, not whether it is great or not. because, if we can have a ton of threads, a number of pages on, on this topic, we know theres quite a "debate" going on.
however, i think we should consider Firaxis "semi-pseudo-history" take on things. because there are many stereotypes, overexagerations, and pop culture thingies, if Firaxis put Israel in, wouldn't people, even Jews, view it as offensive? i think that is the one reason why Israel was never in. however, this is just a guess. what do you guys think?
cybrxkhan
if they were so good at the whole "kill or be killed" then why is modern day israel only 59 years old and and tif judiasm is such an influential religion then why are there inly 14 million jews and why is it the 7th largest group out of ten others and i think that having your culture survive is the least you can do. heres where i got my info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
actually, i think that this is statement is somewhat exaggerated. yes, Judaism --> Christianity/Muslim, but once those two were created, they went separate ways. but im not a monotheist myself, so i cant really say if this is that accurate, so please don't think im some worthless infidel. (which Isabella would think i would be)
well, i think this too is exaggerated a bit, the "kill or be killed", but one must admit that modern-day israel did better than expected back then about forty ears ago, whether you like it or not.
Titus001
Warlord
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 223
Imperial history in the middle east. From Egypt to now. Shows the Roman civilization from just a small city to an empire. (753BC---1453AD)
Other empires like the Turks, Mongols and the Alexander Empire. Shows the kingdom of Israel also. Imperial history in the middle east in 90 seconds. A good watch and it's only 90 seconds. I would love the ancient hebrew in the expansion even though they had a small empire/kingdom. I just think they deserve to be in as much as the Zulus or Celts.
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html
Other empires like the Turks, Mongols and the Alexander Empire. Shows the kingdom of Israel also. Imperial history in the middle east in 90 seconds. A good watch and it's only 90 seconds. I would love the ancient hebrew in the expansion even though they had a small empire/kingdom. I just think they deserve to be in as much as the Zulus or Celts.
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html
