Help a warmonger with Cultural victory.

[Sjaramei]

As the topic says, I'm notorious for getting military wins, and usually win my games that way. So i tried another cultural win last night and succeeded, though it took ages..

Even though i planned the game to be peaceful (lets all be friends! ) i spawned with Monty and Bismarck, (not very good friends... ) and i was forced to make a stack and take their cities during the game. (Monty early game, Bismarck later) I got the cultural win in the late 1800's, marathon speed, i wanted it early since i got the impression marathon would give me that... didn't work exactly that way i think

So, what did i do "wrong"? I think some of my warmonger habits kicked in and slowed me down, even when founding 3 religions as planned (Mono,Theo and Divine) and getting one from Monty i still managed to keep up (and ahead) in offensive military techs. Is that a mistake? Should i prioritize Music and other "weak" stuff earlier?

I did get a pretty awesome start, 7-8 cities ready for settling and 4 of them were really good cities. (One city boxed in a third of my continent for me) I played religious economy with my usual hybrid thingie (Representation/some cottages), having 8 cities and good research without CoL and Currency was a new experience for me .
That meant i couldn't totally focus on getting all the temples and stuff up since i wanted lots of shiny wonders too. (mistake? ) I grabbed a lot of important wonders during the game, Pyramids,HG, GL, GLH, Sistine, AP etc, i have problems stopping building if there is one available .

I made 4 heavy culture cities, is this worth it? I figured having one in backup wouldn't do any harm since all my planned cultural cities were coastal and vulnerable from sea.

I didn't pull the plug on research until i had Infantry and stuff ready, is it possible doing this sooner? (i don't feel safe without Destroyers patrolling my coast and lots of infantry defending/counter attacking)

I got Liberalism first in 1080 something i think (though i got it late because i "needed" military techs ) and used Free Speech as soon as i could for the rest of the game. Switched between Org. Religion and Pacifism during most of the game. Is free religion worth it sooner? (i don't know how much more culture i get from the other religions) I didn't switch to it earlier because i had Spiral of M. and U. of Sankore and got lots of beakers from them.

I did this with Ramesses II on standard Hemispheres 3 continents, Emperor difficulty, Aggressive AI on (i'm not sure if this makes it easier or harder for me). Is he a good leader to do this with? I liked his traits for this, but he didn't start with Mysticism so i couldn't grab one of the two early religions.

So give advice and criticize my strategy, help me become (a little bit) more peaceful!

Fun note from this game: This is the first game i've seen a successful continent invasion from AI's, Hannibal and Sury managed to conquer the last continent before i finished my cultural. (we made great friends too with me joining in with phony wars )

(I the hats on the smilies!)

 

[madscientist]

War in cultural victories is not uncommon. Also a late 1800s culture win is pretty normal for me also (I am also a marathon player).

Ramses is a good player for a cultural win, so I will give my advice on how to proceed.

1) Religions and the UB. Priests ASAP and plan the first to bulb theology to found christianity.If possible use a GS to bulb Phil first (sounds like you did this).TEch CoL early to get the religion and DR partly though a bulb.
2) Capital, You are Ramses, build as many wonder in the capital as you can. DO not spread them out to the other 2 cities if possible. Key wonders, Parthanon, SoZ, sisten Chapel (you need this).
3) Legendary city 2 and 3, can be a mix of specialist and commerce cities. You want lot's of cottages so when the slider goes up you can spped up the process.
4) Music is important for the cathedrals, but teh Free Great Artist while helpful is not required (I have not gotten it yet in all my BTS culture wins).
5) You want ideally 9 cities, each with the religions of your land and each with a temple so each legondary city has a cathedral. You should be able to see which cities will need them more.
6) Hermitage in the weakest city. Get liberalism and try for military tradition if possible. A switch to FS is mandatory.
7) A bigger empire is both good and bad. Good in that you have more cities for more temples and thus more cathedrals, thus if you nation is secure you can ramp up the culture slider earlier in the game. Bad in that you require a higher gold slider and thus less culture.
8) Great artists, I always use them as culture bombs, never settle them.
9) The critical decision is when to turn the slider up. Either do it pre-scientific method or post industrialization/mass media. Both ways work but you better have good diplomatic relations with your neighbors if you go prescience.

Best traits for culture victory are Industrious, financial, philosophical, spiritual, creative.

 

[Sjaramei]

1) Religions and the UB. Priests ASAP and plan the first to bulb theology to found christianity.If possible use a GS to bulb Phil first (sounds like you did this).TEch CoL early to get the religion and DR partly though a bulb.

Somehow the AI's managed to get CoL in the 1500's so i had to Oracle Theology instead. And my GP luck made me 2 engineers as my first great people. (I made AP with one, settled other) I didn't get a scientist before i had researched Philo on my own. I bulbed DR though so i think i got this part mostly right.

2) Capital, You are Ramses, build as many wonder in the capital as you can. DO not spread them out to the other 2 cities if possible. Key wonders, Parthanon, SoZ, sisten Chapel (you need this).

Impossible from my start, i got only 2 hills and lots of food, it became a decent production city in the end but i had to spread the wonders out. (I chopped almost all forests to get pyramids in time) The capital gets legendary first anyway so it's not that important i think

4) Music is important for the cathedrals, but teh Free Great Artist while helpful is not required (I have not gotten it yet in all my BTS culture wins).
8) Great artists, I always use them as culture bombs, never settle them.

I got one! GA during the whole game , i burned him on GA, since bombing him would do nothing. (my other culture cities hit legendary on the same turn) I did get Music way to late i think, too busy getting Liberalism and stuff.
I only settle artist very early in the game, so i think you are right on that one

9) The critical decision is when to turn the slider up. Either do it pre-scientific method or post industrialization/mass media. Both ways work but you better have good diplomatic relations with your neighbors if you go prescience.

Best traits for culture victory are Industrious, financial, philosophical, spiritual, creative.

Heres my problem! When do i crank the slider up? I remember a cultural try earlier where i got invaded a couple of turns before victory because of weak army (thats why i focused more on it during this game) Beeline Radio and stuff and trust muskets for defense?

I used Sushi too btw, is it a good idea using corps if you can get them early? (i picked mining inc out of habit, silly me forgot about Creative Constructions )

 

[madscientist]

Military and culture, two choices I have found.

Either forget Scientific Method and use Cavalry/Cannons/Rifles for defense if you are confident in the diplomatic situation (as was the case with teh RPC HOLY SAL game). Remember, by the time you hit legendary in all three cities, alot of AIs will have tanks and planes unless you totally cleared house.

If you go past scientific method, commit to getting tanks and usually flight(defense and airports for the trade route). Radio/mass media are close behind so whould be teched.

Regarding the second GE (the first for the AP was a good move) I would have built another wonder in the culture weakest legendary city or saved him for the sisten chapel. Remember the early wonders will double in culture 1000 years after building them. Even the parthanon wopuld have been a good move.

Getting the GAs are not that important but certainly help. The Golden Age is also not a bad use of the GA for this game, just ramp the culture slider up during it' spam. Also make sure a nice wonder or 2 are in progress during the GA.

 

[madscientist]

Sushi is the best culture copr. Creative Constructions is also good but later (combustion!!) than Mining Inc (Railroad) so it is a typical mistake. The thing is you can get Creative Constructions without Scientific Method, but need scientific method for Sushi.

 

[Kanidyen]

So, what did i do "wrong"? I think some of my warmonger habits kicked in and slowed me down, even when founding 3 religions as planned (Mono,Theo and Divine) and getting one from Monty i still managed to keep up (and ahead) in offensive military techs. Is that a mistake? Should i prioritize Music and other "weak" stuff earlier?

It's never really a mistake to prioritize military, especially in BtS where a DoW can come from anywhere/anytime. In fact, a very early rush to take someone's capital and use it as a legendary city is a viable tactic. There's an ideal, optimal time to make the full switch to FS/100% culture slider, but there's also a more practical time; you have to be your own judge of that. Just keep in mind that Pacifism is the key religious civic in that you will spawn GAs quicker, allowing you to "bomb" in the required cultural score to win. While Pacifism makes a standing army expensive, there's no reason you can't keep one, either.

I got the cultural win in the late 1800's, marathon speed, i wanted it early since i got the impression marathon would give me that... didn't work exactly that way i think

There's a few key elements that will speed up any cultural win:

1) Hermitage and cathedrals. I don't belive folks build these early enough in their games, and their victory dates suffer as a consequence. There seems to be a preference to build more and more of the early wonders. While wonders certainly add their share of culture, the multiplicable effects of the Hermitage/cathedral is far better in the long run. It's debatable whether the Hermitage should go into your weakest cultural city, your capital, or wherever. However, I believe it's important to just build the thing and worry about tweaking it's placement later. 100% culture is too important of a bonus to let go idle; Nationalism is a key tech simply to gain access to the Hermitage, and once you have it, it really should be a priority build. Cathedrals are also important with their 50% bonus to culture. In a typical game, I'll build the Hermitage in the capital and stack 3-4 cathedrals in one city, leaving the third city to boost culture through GA great works. On larger maps, I'll stack additional cathedrals with the Hermitage.

2) Slider to 100% earlier. Every turn you don't have the slider up, you're loosing culture, thus slowing yourself down. The question is, of course, when to turn it up. Obviously, the best time is the turn you get Liberalism, unless you have aggressive neighbors and need to keep up tech for defenses. In that case, it may be more difficult, even impossible, to turn science all the way off.

What this paradox suggests is that a hybrid economy is in order. You would think that you could go full specialists, but as it turns out, the culture produced from mature cottages is better than running artist specialists (Printing Press is a nice tech for a culture win, by the way), so your legendary cities will be cottages. Your GP farm will be running artist specialists to produce many GAs to use to create great works. Don't neglect a university/observatory here; artists specialits produce a small amount of beakers that can add up. In all your other cities, you'll probably want to go ahead and run science and merchant specialists as needed, thereby lessening the need for the slider to be producing tech/gold, and be sure to run Representation to gain even more research from the specialists.

Tech what you think you'll need, not what you would want in a normal conquest/domination/space game. As mentioned, Printing Press gives cottages a boost, which in turn gives you more culture. Remember that Nationalism not only gives you the Hermitage, but also the ability to draft for protection when you switch civics. Gunpowder gives you access to muskets for the draft, and eventually leads to rifling for even better protection. After that, it's up to you on where you want to go. Just remember, the longer you're teching with the slider, the later your win date will be.

I'll have more to say on this after the HoF is updated around the 25th.

3) Great Artists producing great works in legendary cities. This "bombing" tactic is often overlooked, as many suggest to settle your GAs. Just as you would lightbulb GP to move quicker up the tech tree, you bomb your legendary cities to move your culture score closer to victory conditions. Keep a GP farm up specifically to produce as many GAs as possible, and be sure to build the National Epic there. The Parthenon (built in any city) will also help. Your GA farm does not have to be legendary, but many find it helpful since it normally produces a decent amount of culture just by having the artists specialists there. If you're wonder-spamming and happen to get a prophet or something, don't worry: you can always use him for an early religious tech or a golden age. Just remember to keep your GP farm running optimally, and the GA bombs will come.

 

[ratrangerm]

To quote DaveMcW: "Cottages and cathedrals."

Seriously, though, he's right. The basics in a nutshell:

1. Get three cities cottaged, preferably the ones you want to be the legendary culture candidates.
2. Get at least three GP Farms, all concentrating on Great Artists, and one that is extensive with them (this one should have National Epic).
3. Adopt Caste System as early as possible to get the Great Artists rolling.
4. Head to Liberalism and adopt Free Speech.
5. Adopt Pacifism as soon as you can.
6. Get about three religions spread through your empire. You don't have to found three, as you should be able to get at least one or two to spread to you, but you may have to found the third. Because Code of Laws and Philosophy are priority techs, you should try to found the religions that come with them.
7. Build nine cities and get Temples in all of them, so you can put a Cathedral in each of your LC cities.
8. Get the Parthenon and Sistine Chapel built, preferably in the same city, and absolutely in a city that does not contain other Wonders (unless those Wonders contribute Great Artist points).
9. Hermitage should go into the LC city that needs the boost the most. You can determine this by checking the number of turns it will take each city to reach LC... the one that will take the most turns needs Hermitage the most.
10. Before turning the slider to 100 percent Culture, run it at 100 percent Gold (or all three sliders at 0 percent) so you can accumulate a treasury that will cover your expenses while you run the slider at 100 percent Culture.

 

[madscientist]

10. Before turning the slider to 100 percent Culture, run it at 100 percent Gold (or all three sliders at 0 percent) so you can accumulate a treasury that will cover your expenses while you run the slider at 100 percent Culture.

This one I never thought of but makes alot of sense.

 

[Kanorin]

Overall, I think you did quite well. I was just playing a culture game last night and made a few blunders myself - perhaps we can learn from one another's mistakes.

My biggest mistake was not maintaining my military. 4 civilizations within 4 turns declared war on me after I pushed the culture slider up to 90%. This was right after I got electricity. What happened was that I used a midgame war against Toku to secure my position and take the last two cities needed for my 9. After making peace, I went temple/cathedral crazy and forgot to reinforce my army. About 25 turns later I found half the world warring against me. Take home message: You do need to keep enough military to ward off opportunistic AI from attacking you.

I learned another thing from last night's game too - I should have been spreading my religions earlier and building temples earlier. I probably should have secured my 9 cities earlier too. There was a point in my game where I had only 3 total cathedrals built and none that could be built...so this slowed me down as I had to wait to spread religions and build up my temples.

 

[oyzar]

Correction to ragaterm's post is that you should put hermitage in the city that produce the most culture then bomb the others heavily to catch up(you just need to get enough artists).

 

[Sjaramei]

So i figured from all this advice i need to:

-Get more bombing GA's
-Earlier Cathedrals and temples (i knew about this one, .....must resist shiny wonders! )
-Burn engineers on "crappy" wonders like Parthenon
-More guts so i can turn the slider down earlier

So my final questions:
Anybody use Corps for their cultural victories? Should I just skip that part and focus on temples/cathedrals or is it worth getting if you got a good research rate?

And no one commented on Aggressive AI? Nobody but me stupid enough to turn it on and try a cultural victory?

 

[madscientist]

So i figured from all this advice i need to:

-Get more bombing GA's
-Earlier Cathedrals and temples (i knew about this one, .....must resist shiny wonders! )
-Burn engineers on "crappy" wonders like Parthenon
-More guts so i can turn the slider down earlier

So my final questions:
Anybody use Corps for their cultural victories? Should I just skip that part and focus on temples/cathedrals or is it worth getting if you got a good research rate?

I have won BTS games using alot of cathedrals or productive corps (meaning lot's of resources). Rarely have I seen a need for both. The bigger deciding factor is when to stop teching. If you tech longer, then the corps only help.

 

[Kanidyen]

So i figured from all this advice i need to:

-Get more bombing GA's
-Earlier Cathedrals and temples (i knew about this one, .....must resist shiny wonders! )
-Burn engineers on "crappy" wonders like Parthenon
-More guts so i can turn the slider down earlier

GA bombs: check

Early temples and cathedrals: check, with a tech to Nationalism to get Hermitage quickly

More guts & turn off research slider early: check, but make the right call... if your neighbor has cav, it's in your best interest to get rifles online quickly

must resist shiny wonders!

Not necessarily...

Here's a gambit for you: Oracle for Aesthetics or something. The Oracle produces 8 culture, then 16 after 1000 years. This is a prime wonder for a legendary city, as other wonders (especially the Pyramids) do not produce that much culture.

BtS includes some great wonders that produce GA points. While some seem to not see them as "sexy" as others, our point was to win early via culture, not put on a fashion show.

Build your crappy Parthenon and like it as you finish 200 years earlier then your average space race Joe.