Is It Possible To Lose a Triple Gem Start on Monarch?

[Fish Man]

Gave this one a shot; been a while since I played on monarch. This is quite a fun map. Given that it was monarch and I had triple gems...

Spoiler :

You know I had to do it to'em

Spoiler :

Now it's 150BC and I have maces; meanwhile nobody else has monarchy even. I also built Great Lighthouse and Colossus in Angkor Thom (double fish cow copper gems spot) because why not, and I have forges everywhere. My capital has 100bpt and academy and I'm 200bpt at 100% slider, break-even at around 50%. Joao completely failed in expanding which let me get 9 cities peacefully, with room for 3-4 more backfills. Shaka very generously built the mids in Ulundi, which will give me rep for free when he kindly "donates" it to me. I guess for playing to win this is mostly gg but I'd like to see how fast of a space win I can get here.

Also, PS: I founded Hariharalaya ONE turn before Shaka could found on that spot. The reason is that I built and chopped out a size 1 settler immediately after my worker, using my scout to fogbust that general area. On monarch barbs are basically not a threat, unlike deity where you get rushed by 3 barb archers 2400BC if you don't build at least 2-3 warriors to fogbust. So I felt comfortable skipping warriors until after my first settler was out. City 2 was on a hill which meant if Shaka got any ideas, all I had to do was cram a few hilltop archers on a city with creative culture to pulverize any monarch-sized early attack stack that appeared.

Spoiler :

 

[skarpa]

Gave this one a shot; been a while since I played on monarch. This is quite a fun map. Given that it was monarch and I had triple gems...

Spoiler :

You know I had to do it to'em

Spoiler :

View attachment 711235

Now it's 150BC and I have maces; meanwhile nobody else has monarchy even. I also built Great Lighthouse and Colossus in Angkor Thom (double fish cow copper gems spot) because why not, and I have forges everywhere. My capital has 100bpt and academy and I'm 200bpt at 100% slider, break-even at around 50%. Joao completely failed in expanding which let me get 9 cities peacefully, with room for 3-4 more backfills. Shaka very generously built the mids in Ulundi, which will give me rep for free when he kindly "donates" it to me. I guess for playing to win this is mostly gg but I'd like to see how fast of a space win I can get here.

Also, PS: I founded Hariharalaya ONE turn before Shaka could found on that spot. The reason is that I built and chopped out a size 1 settler immediately after my worker, using my scout to fogbust that general area. On monarch barbs are basically not a threat, unlike deity where you get rushed by 3 barb archers 2400BC if you don't build at least 2-3 warriors to fogbust. So I felt comfortable skipping warriors until after my first settler was out. City 2 was on a hill which meant if Shaka got any ideas, all I had to do was cram a few hilltop archers on a city with creative culture to pulverize any monarch-sized early attack stack that appeared.

Spoiler :

View attachment 711236

Maces!! On Monarch!! 150BC!! Since CS is a 300AD job for me if I'm lucky on Monarch, I'd love to know how

 

[sampsa]

I'd love to know how

triple gems and oracle CS.

 

[skarpa]

triple gems and oracle CS.

i did think Oracle would be involved somewhere still gotta both tech CoL and build it before anyone else. I'm sure I done worse with better starts.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

This is your thread. We can look at other points if you want :
- how to develop fish city (more on workers and priorities and synchronization <-- which is much of the management game... );
- how to defend against a Shaka DoW if you want to provide a WB save (maybe it's doomed, maybe it's possible even in an emergency).

You tell, maybe something else is of interest to you

Hmmmm... I feel like the investigation of this map is going to branch. No doubt there is a lot cover in terms of tightening up my early game. I also took another swing at it yesterday, and was able to completely obliterate Shaka by T105 (which I hadn't achieved on any previous run). I was then a bit lost as to how to proceed most efficiently (more war vs econ focus). Finally, I am very interested in exploring Fish Man's oracling of CS. I haven't done that in years, and only ever on lower difficulties.

I expect it will be best to pick one and focus on it, but I'm having a fuzzy head day, so it will probably have to wait until tomorrow. I really appreciate all the input I'm getting though.

But the copper was still unhooked. So even if the city had been connected, you'd still have been able to build warriors. Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

No, you got it right. Not entirely sure what my thinking was here. I guess I assumed, that if I wasn't hooking up the copper, then connecting the cities wasn't a priority. That feels like a lot of worker turns just for the trade route. Am I calculating that wrong, or are there other benefits for connecting the cities?

Spoiler :

Now it's 150BC and I have maces; meanwhile nobody else has monarchy even. I also built Great Lighthouse and Colossus in Angkor Thom (double fish cow copper gems spot) because why not, and I have forges everywhere. My capital has 100bpt and academy and I'm 200bpt at 100% slider, break-even at around 50%. Joao completely failed in expanding which let me get 9 cities peacefully, with room for 3-4 more backfills. Shaka very generously built the mids in Ulundi, which will give me rep for free when he kindly "donates" it to me. I guess for playing to win this is mostly gg but I'd like to see how fast of a space win I can get here.

Totally baffled by how this is possible. Expansion + Tech + Wonders are all competing priorities for me. No idea how you managed to do all three, even on such an easy map. I guess if I knew how, I wouldn't be struggling on Monarch.

 

[jorissimo]

That feels like a lot of worker turns just for the trade route. Am I calculating that wrong, or are there other benefits for connecting the cities?

That's some essential early commerce. Means the city practically pays for itself. Of course, you had gems and this is Monarch, so you got away with it, but on a commerce-poor start on Immortal this could have gotten you into some trouble.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

That's some essential early commerce. Means the city practically pays for itself. Of course, you had gems and this is Monarch, so you got away with it, but on a commerce-poor start on Immortal this could have gotten you into some trouble.

Got it. Many thanks.

 

[jorissimo]

That feels like a lot of worker turns just for the trade route.

Btw, this is true, and it's why we normally prioritize natural connections by river and coast within the cultural borders. But sometimes you don't have a choice.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. I give up. I just spent an entire day trying to get maces by 150BC, and I only managed to Oracle CS once (T91). It then took me until T127 (300AD) before I got Machinery. Is this good enough to beat the Monarch AI? Sure, probably (although, I could probably find a way to botch it and at least one opponent already had cats); but I'm obviously still making a LOT of errors, so I'm throwing in the towel.

I'm really not sure where I should go from here in terms of trying to get better. I'm happy to put the effort in, but really, I'm just , and frankly, bashing harder and longer doesn't seem to be getting me the results I'm hoping for.

 

[sampsa]

Is this good enough to beat the Monarch AI? Sure, probably

Yes. You don't even need to run ahead in tech of the AI like that in order to win. Equal amount of cities, equal amount of tech is usually enough on deity. So calm down.

I'm really not sure where I should go from here in terms of trying to get better. I'm happy to put the effort in, but really, I'm just , and frankly, bashing harder and longer doesn't seem to be getting me the results I'm hoping for.

You need to forget results for a while. Focus on learning new skills, that's the important part. You are doing a good job with , probably the most important skill there is. At least for me, perceived improvement comes in bursts.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Yes. You don't even need to run ahead in tech of the AI like that in order to win. Equal amount of cities, equal amount of tech is usually enough on deity. So calm down.


You need to forget results for a while. Focus on learning new skills, that's the important part. You are doing a good job with , probably the most important skill there is. At least for me, perceived improvement comes in bursts.

Thanks sampsa. I'm somewhat convinced that in the future I'll look back and see two things that really impeded my progress:
1. The huge lag in this game between making a mistake (or even an inaccuracy) and the effects of that error. It makes it really hard to pinpoint what's gone wrong.
2. My complete inability to recognise when I should have stopped playing an hour ago. Physical and mental fatigue have a known effect on cognitive ability, and some of my sessions can get quite lengthy. I'm sure that a lot of my questionable decisions come from just wanting to push on, when I really need a break. That and the fact that the "next turn" button is so damn convenient.

Ah well. Back to .

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. Let's look at some specifics...

Spoiler Attempt 8, Turn 105 :

So, after my nominal win, I took another swing at the map, and decided to go quite aggressive. I got Horse Archers out before Shaka was able to build many Impi (I only remember having to contend with one or two).

So now, I'm easily the largest civ on the continent, but my economy is struggling (running a deficit at 0% ). Long term, Joao is definitely the biggest threat, but Boudica is plotting.

In this game, I rebuilt my army, then launched a preemptive attack on the Celts. It took me close to 80 turns to finish them though (from the death of Shaka).

What should I have done (or done better)?

 

[sampsa]

Attempt 8, Turn 105

Spoiler :

Looks promising. Work every -tile (gems in 2nd city is unworked) and build capital river cottages. Now you see how useless those mines are... Probably you don't need more units. Settler ok, though not sure if you should settle it immediately. Could also consider city gift to Budi and beg for peace? Then you could delete a lot of your old units that only cost upkeep.

Where are your workers? I presume you have an ivory improved for . Now just grow and work cottages, run scientists if necessary.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

More questions about that save. ^^^

What should my workers prioritise?
Cottages, maybe? Unfortunately, I still don't have IW yet (I was hoping to get alpha and then trade for it, but I'm not convinced that is my best play here) so I can't clear the jungles.

What should my cities be building?
I did manage to get Currency, so I could switch some of them over to building gold.
There are at least 6 spots I want to settle, plus a few more if I can get there before Joao, so I'd like to pump out a few settlers. Having said that, I also need to grow my cities. Between hammer focus and the whip, none of my cities are above size 5.

What should I research?
As stated above, I want alphabet. Iron Working is also critical if I want to expand east. Calendar will REALLY help with the happy cap (plus food & commerce). Teching towards Engineering/Guilds will keep me ahead of the competition militarily, but I doubt I'll ever get there if I don't fix my economy first.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler :

Looks promising. Work every -tile (gems in 2nd city is unworked) and build capital river cottages. Now you see how useless those mines are... Probably you don't need more units. Settler ok, though not sure if you should settle it immediately. Could also consider city gift to Budi and beg for peace? Then you could delete a lot of your old units that only cost upkeep.

So focus on fixing the economy then. Got it. Yeah, I just had a look at what some of those cities were building, and obviously I hadn't made my mind up about whether to hit Boudica yet, so I'll fix that. Until you mentioned it earlier in this thread, gifting a city had never occurred to me. Will it really keep her off my back for a significant amount of time? (I really don't know anything about how diplo works).

Where are your workers? I presume you have an ivory improved for . Now just grow and work cottages, run scientists if necessary.

I only have 10 workers. Building more is on my radar, but until I know what I'm going to with them...
Oh, and the Ivory came with one of the Zulu cities I captured. You can blame Shaka for that.

 

[sampsa]

What should my workers prioritise?
Cottages, maybe?

Yes, maybe chop for granary.

What should my cities be building?
I did manage to get Currency, so I could switch some of them over to building gold.

Ah, that changes everything. Most, if not all of your cities should be building wealth.

What should I research?
As stated above, I want alphabet.

Reasonable, if you can get IW via trade. Also consider the possibility of going calendar-IW?

 

[sampsa]

Until you mentioned it earlier in this thread, gifting a city had never occurred to me. Will it really keep her off my back for a significant amount of time? (I really don't know anything about how diplo works).

It's +4 for fair trade and +1 liberation if you can settle close enough to her capital (I don't remember the exact details, maybe it needs to be closer to her capital than to any other capital?). So it will get her to pleased which allows begging (at cautious you are threatening her). Since you have currency, beg for say 10.

I only have 10 workers. Building more is on my radar, but until I know what I'm going to with them...

10 is plenty, though you might want some more at IW.

 

[soundjata]

I don't remember the exact details, maybe it needs to be closer to her capital than to any other capital?

It's any city when AI has less than 5 cities or any city that is less than 9 tiles away from AI cap (diagonal distance = 1.5)

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

When the computer gets cranky because you stole a worker from the barbs...

Spoiler The RNG hates me :

 

[AcaMetis]

Could be worse. I've lost two Cavalry to a barb Sword before .