Help (HOF game)

[A.D.S]

That caravan (freight) building in HOF games no matter how many caravans i sent the citys still dont grow a bit

what i do wrong?

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[spycatcher34]

what do you mean by grow? Freight is suppose to create trade between your cities.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

I think with pyramids/granary you have to send 2 food caravans to the city in the same turn, then pop will grow by one. If you send them one at a time I don't think it will work.

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DEATH awaits you all...with nasty, big, pointy teeth.

 

[HIEROPHANT]

that town still grow but every two turn with one in the huger zone. But make sure those town have 50 net production.

 

[starlifter]

posted July 09, 2001 11:31 AM
what do you mean by grow? Freight is suppose to create trade between your cities.

Freight/caravans can also be used for food. Even if a city has hunger (not enough food to sustain it), when the food box is filled, the city will grow no matter what, on the next turn. However, the hunger will be greater, and more food caravans will be needed, or the Population will begin to die off.

BTW, my personal opinion: I usually don't like the Food Caravan Trick. Since every city can (given the time and effort), be increased up to size 127, I think it is not appropriate to use the Food Caravan Trick in GOTM games to make cities larger than their "Natural" sizes. Otherwise, its just a degeneration into a freight contest (even irrigation/farms would not be necessary, LOL!).

 

[HIEROPHANT]

I like when i can make even the polar very big it is so funny how a town can grow even when it is on hunger.

 

[starlifter]

posted July 10, 2001 11:39 AM

I like when i can make even the polar very big it is so funny how a town can grow even when it is on hunger.

Any city can be forced to size 127. Food, irrigation, land area are irrelevant. It is sily to do this, IMHO, unless you are perhaps doing a special game like Shadowdale did.

In other words, it is nice that people have not done the Food Caravan Trick in GOTMs. That would raise the bar, and make scores irrelevant, since those that didn't use the FCT would never have a chance, LOL

.

 

[shadowdale]

Actually Starlifter there is almost no chance that people in the GotM will start using food caravans to increase the population, not unless they are going for the blue star anyway!!!

The reason is that you can't increase your score fast enough to compensate for the 1% deduction per turn that the GotM score formula imposes on you, so it would be rather stupid to begin using them!

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We are species 8472 - assimilation attempts are futile - the weak shall perish

No wait we are species 5618 and we got beer...... don't harm us!!!!!!

 

[starlifter]

posted July 10, 2001 02:58 PM by Shadowdale:
Actually Starlifter there is almost no chance that people in the GotM will start using food caravans to increase the population, not unless they are going for the blue star anyway!!!

The reason is that you can't increase your score fast enough to compensate for the 1% deduction per turn that the GotM score formula imposes on you, so it would be rather stupid to begin using them!

That's good to hear, as I've never liked using food caravans for increasing populations beyond the city's natural ability to exist. In my HOF game, I had no idea what the Food Caravan Trick was, much less how to do it, but I do now. When I first started playing a GOTM (#5, about 3 weeks ago), I first looked at how others played to see what was acceptable. I had not noticed that the "airfield trick" was acceptable, and it was not until almost completing GOTM 5 that I read the Airfield Trick was OK, and then of course I used it. But the Airfield Trick does not add tedium to the game, only increase population slightly. The Food Caravan Trick can increase populations to even greater levels than your excellent HOF game... but as you and I both know, maaaannn is it booooring.

BTW, my own personal use of food caravans is normally limited to helping cities survive in the last few turns before a game ends, when I have engineers to support before the SS lands. I take pains to ensure I don't accidently make the population greater than what it could normally be, even though I know it's not required that I do so. I just don't think it would be fair of me to balloon my cities beyond their normal max size. But them, I'm the same guy that self-imposes maintaining a "spotless" record, etc. just to make a better challenge.

In GOTM 6, I could easily get 1,000 more points... right now (even at this late date in the 1880's, about 10 years before my SS lands)... using the FCT. But I'm instead using hundreds of freight for trade and gold (not food

).

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you can't increase your score fast enough to compensate for the 1% deduction per turn that the GotM score formula imposes on you,
...

I don't want to sound pompous, but that is not true, at least for me and probably several other players. In my own personal opinion, it would be unfair to the newer Civ II players for me to turn in games with cities of 100, 110, 120. The GOTM scores, even with the "curve" deflation, would be absurd, as GOTM 6 could easily (but tediously

) go over 20,000 by 1900 (turn 300); the GOTM score I would submit would be over 300, which is (IMHO) unsporting and absurd. The effect would be to make everyone else's score drop by about 60%.

In the mid-1800's, I was (and still am at times in the 1880's) generating over 100 freight every day. I could actually "push" and generate one from every city every turn due to the enormous amount of gold (over 20,000) and shields (over 4,000) I get every turn. This would translate to over 100 "forced" pop points every turn, which is far ahead of the 1% curve, at least at this point ijn the game. If I were to actually "try" and use the FCT from the start, I could generate over 200 pop points every turn for about 80 game turns (16,000 points).

So bottom line from me is that I've been quite impressed with the people in CivFanatics, and in particular have enjoyed the GOTM without seeing the FCT. Personally, I'd just forbid it up front in the rules (if I were the rule-maker), but I'm impressed that you and the others who I'm sure can do it skillfully, don't

.

 

[shadowdale]

Well Starlifter - if you could produce 200 food caravans per turn that would only increase your score by 100 per turn as it takes two caravans to increase the city. So you could use this to increase your score but when you score exceeds 10.000 points then the increase in GotM score will stop because you lose more by the 1% deduction than you gain from the 200 food caravans!

BTW how can you have 200 cities and not having more than 5-6000 points???
With 200 cities, with an average size of 30 you have 10.000 points just in population, and then they trick won't work!!!

And one more thing - even with 20.000 gold each turn(and remember that you don't get anything from trade caravans) then you can't rush buy more than some 44 caravans per turn since they cost 450 gold to rush buy!!

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We are species 8472 - assimilation attempts are futile - the weak shall perish

No wait we are species 5618 and we got beer...... don't harm us!!!!!!

 

[starlifter]

posted July 12, 2001 11:58 AM
Well Starlifter - if you could produce 200 food caravans per turn that would only increase your score by 100 per turn as it takes two caravans to increase the city.

That is true, but only after your city is in the "starving" mode (e.g., super-sized).

So you could use this to increase your score but when you score exceeds 10.000 points then the increase in GotM score will stop because you lose more by the 1% deduction than you gain from the 200 food caravans!

This depends on game turn and number of turns in the game. The 1% is a good general rule of thumb, though.

BTW how can you have 200 cities and not having more than 5-6000 points???

LOL, I don't have more than 200 cities in this GOTM, but even if I could get that many, there would be a lot of very small and weak ones because the map is so small.

With 200 cities, with an average size of 30 you have 10.000 points just in population, and then they trick won't work!!!

The trick is much more difficult than that, because in GOTM 6, only about 2/3 of those 200 cities could be significent producers. Probably only about 80 could produce 50 shields every turn. That means the economic model would be very difficult, too.

And one more thing - even with 20.000 gold each turn(and remember that you don't get anything from trade caravans) then you can't rush buy more than some 44 caravans per turn since they cost 450 gold to rush buy!!

LOL, no a caravan's cost to rush is not anywhere near that expensive (the 450 you quote is for a non-IR buy), even from scratch. The best cost depends on the patience of the player, the form of government you are in, the tech you have, the shield production of the producing city, and your RB method. In a Democracy, a post-gunpowder freight costs 260 gold to rush from scratch in a city that produces 9 or less shields. With even more patience, the cost can be reduced to 235 no matter what tech has been discovered (using SB method). Cost is 195 in fundamentalism, BTW. A post-Feudalism, pre-Gunpowder caravan is also 195 gold.

The real hit would come out of science; my figures for gold are based on normal deliveries of trade freight, which would not be available if food freight were being produced. The funding would come by increasing gold at the expense of science, which gives a hit to the FT points. Once FT is maxed, however, this is not a factor anymore and taxes can be raised to as much as 40,000 net.

With the prior (premeditated) planning, the actual number of cities that I would have growing by one point every turn would be 127. This equates to about 10,000 points due to growth over 80 game turns.

As an example, assuming turn 220 (420 turn game) and a score of 4,000 (GOTM=129), using this method would increase the GOTM to 214 by turn 300, but actually reduce the GOTM to 174 by turn 380. So it is sort of complicated, but I'll summarize by saying "it depends" on the situation.

One thing is for sure... a good early start is essential for the Food Caravan Trick (FCT) to give a max score, and early start people would benefit most with a dedicated FCT strategy. If the GOTMs became a FCT event (and thankfully the are not an FCT event!), I'd be forced to change my own game strategy to a less enjoyable style of play

.

 

[shadowdale]

Originally posted by Starlifter:
That is true, but only after your city is in the "starving" mode (e.g., super-sized).

Can you tell me why you would want to use the FCT in any other situation?? If the cities still have a surplus of food why not just turn on the WLT_ and grow even faster??

Originally posted by Starlifter:
As an example, assuming turn 220 (420 turn game) and a score of 4,000 (GOTM=129), using this method would increase the GOTM to 214 by turn 300, but actually reduce the GOTM to 174 by turn 380. So it is sort of complicated, but I'll summarize by saying "it depends" on the situation.

Starlifter the reason why this example doesn't work is that when you have 254 cities producing 254 food caravans each turn then you have 254 large cities. 254 cities of size 8 would give you 4064 points from population alone, and then there are all the other things that gives points. When you reach the point where you need to use food caravans in your game to increase your score, then your score will have reached a point where the 1% deduction exceeds the 127 points gain every turn.


BTW I know that I can get the unites cheaper by rush buying cheaper unites and then change the unite being produced.
But what I didn't know was that government, tech level and shield production could have any affect on how expensive it is to rush buy a unite - could you please explain this?

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We are species 8472 - assimilation attempts are futile - the weak shall perish

No wait we are species 5618 and we got beer...... don't harm us!!!!!!

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by shadowdale:
But what I didn't know was that government, tech level and shield production could have any affect on how expensive it is to rush buy a unite - could you please explain this?

I know that your tech level makes it where lesser (ie cheaper) units are not available to use in the Step Buying. (you can't use warriors to buy the first 10 shields, you have to use pikemen which are at 20)

Shield production just means you don't have to buy as much because it will be used in the production to finish the unit.

But the Gov type affecting Rush Buying units is unclear to me. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/confused.gif" border=0>

On Edit: The only thing I can think of for Gov. is the availablitiy of certain units. Fundy gives you fundamentalists kinda thing.

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I always wanted to be a professional procrastinator, but I just never got around to it.

[This message has been edited by Duke of Marlbrough (edited July 13, 2001).]

 

[starlifter]

Can you tell me why you would want to use the FCT in any other situation?? If the cities still have a surplus of food why not just turn on the WLT_ and grow even faster??

Sure, no problem. I have faced this choice in both GOTM 5 and GOTM 6. To help illustrate this, I just permanantly saved a GOTM 6 in 1885 which I will post at the end of July to illustrate exactly what I'm talking about in a real-game example (remind me if I forget in 2 weeks ;: ).

One of my own techniques is to pile as many as 60 or 70 engineers into one city shortly before my SS lands. Naturally, there will not be a food surplus for a celebrating city to grow. Plus, the city will begin to lose pop in 2 or 3 turns. So I use a Food Caravan every other turn or so to keep the city from starving. I have to be careful, because if I send an extra freight in, or send a freight in with the food more that 50%, the city will grow. If the city is at its "natural" max size given my current terraforming, I don't want it to get beyond and become a Super City, simply because I personally think that would not be sporting.

But if my Engineer city is one or two "WLTP" days from growing to its max size when I have to dump some engineers into it, I don't mind letting the FCT bump the pop up to what it really "should" be.

The urgency in this growth is because of the impending SS landing, usually within about 5 years when I have to start the massive "engineer shuffle".

In GOTM 6, I think I used the FCT to net a total of about 3 pop points in my total of 5 or 6 "engineer" cities. That's just because I don't pile engineers into smaller growing cities... they suck the food dry too quickly, and smaller cities often can't pay the shield support.

As another example, in GOTM 5, the big Zulu city I had in the Zulu hills supported a bunch of engineers, and at one point, I accidentally pushed a food freight into it too soon & it became a "super city" by one citizen, so I let that citizen starve off a couple turns later.

So the answer to your question is that engineer support (resulting in net starvation), for example, can cause a "normal" city to stop growing, even if it is still celebrating.

Of courses, WLTP days are more efficient for growth under the vast majority of circumstances.

Starlifter the reason why this example doesn't work is that when you have 254 cities producing 254 food caravans each turn then you have 254 large cities. 254 cities of size 8 would give you 4064 points from population alone, and then there are all the other things that gives points. When you reach the point where you need to use food caravans in your game to increase your score, then your score will have reached a point where the 1% deduction exceeds the 127 points gain every turn.

I see your point, and what you say is certainly true in some instances.

But since my own empire are not symmetrical, I will have some small cities cranking out food freight while still celebrating and growing on their own. Until they all start to max out, the net population added each turn greatly exceeds the (50^PNP) curve. Even in GOTM 6 (where I have over 4,000 shields per day available for production), I am growing at such a rate the I'm greatly exceeding the (50^PNP) curve. If I had planned better, or could go back about 50 turns and try again, I could time this much better, and have the natural pop maxing out better as I approach the SS date.

If I had chosen (waaay back), I could have produced hundreds of surplus food caravans to be used in the end-game period to force cities (small and large) way beyond their "Natural" size. The actual rate of growth can be 254 points per day, using the pre-made food freight. As the reserve of food freight is exhausted, a point will be reached at which it is not to a player's advantage to continue using the FCT to grow. Ideally, the player should land the SS at that point.

And regardless of whether the FCT can in and of itself sustain a better curve than the 1% rule of thumb, my earliest SS landing date is set by other circumstances (and I happen to be launching/landing the SS ASAP in GOTM 6, but it was very slow going in the early/mid game for me this time). Since I knew 100 turns ago about when my SS would land, I can easily easily easily have added at least 1,000 (and probably more like 3,000) points to my Civ II score by my SS landing date.
Even at this moment, I have about 10 food freight (and probably 100 trade freight) sitting around, in case a city become in danger of losing a pop due to starvation. But I don't go throw them into a maxed city & make a super city, as you'll see in the .SAV files when the results are posted by Matrix next month.

BTW, the game designers allow (as I'm sure we all know) the players to force any city to size 8 by joining settlers/engineers. Food and support is irrelevant, though obviously a city faces the usual happiness and food supply problems.

BTW I know that I can get the unites cheaper by rush buying cheaper unites and then change the unite being produced. But what I didn't know was that government, tech level and shield production could have any affect on how expensive it is to rush buy a unite - could you please explain this?

Duke got the answer right (thanks, Duke!).

I did not go into great detail because I'd assumed you guys already knew what I was talking about, and didn't want to sound condescending. The government issue is "natural" Fundamentalism. Fundy is good at raising gold, but it has several "hidden" aspects that make it greatly advantageous to micro-managing players (like me and you).

One of those huge advantages in "Natural" Fundy (in the long run) is the 20-shield fanatic. It costs 120 gold to buy it with an empty bin. In Democracy, an empty bin is 210 gold (spy). To get 50 unit shields from scratch, it is:

Democracy: 210 + 25 + 25 = 260 gold
Fundy: 120 + 25 + 25 + 25 = 195 gold

For example, if you buy 4,000 freight, this saves:

4,000 * (260-195) = 260,000 gold.

Even if you use the more tedious ISB (Incremental Switch Buy), Fundy is still cheaper for a 50 shield unit (195 vs. 235).

Hope this all helps

.

BTW, On a different subject. I am going to have to really hunker down and try the "early conquest" methods of you, Smash, Cactus Pete, and others. If I had a cleared planet in 1 AD to plunder, boy howdy... I'd be crappin' in tall cotton!

My big military campaingns used to come after flight, and lately they are coming after teh dawn of gunpowder. But I've never really been a big war-monger in the pre-gunpowder era. However, when looking at the results some of you guys achieve in that early era, I'm thinking its worth it for this old horse to learn some new tricks.

I'm still in awe of your early GOTM 4 accomplishment, Shadowdale! The size of your empire runs about 800-1000 years ahead of mine in the same game. I finished all but the last few long turns of GOTM 4 in late June so I can compare my results to everyone else's, but I haven't touched it in 2 weeks.

 

[Relegin Bor]

shadowdale & starlifter!
I abase myself at the altar of your genius!

Yeh, but seriously your HoF scores and analysis of the game have blown me away! I've only recently started playing for high score (Total War was my kick

) and thought my first size41 city was pretty neat. How do you get > size41 cities? Given WLT_ will only add 20 pop (at least in ToT) and new pop takes hundreds of turns. Does the Caravan Trick work here? And doesn't that take 1 food away from the supply city, which would limit the size of that city thereby nullifying any overall pop increase and advantage?

Cheers,

relegin bor

PS: How do you get 6 advances a turn?

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by Relegin Bor:
How do you get > size41 cities? Does the Caravan Trick work here? And doesn't that take 1 food away from the supply city, which would limit the size of that city thereby nullifying any overall pop increase and advantage?

If I remember correctly, the one food used from a city is usually an extra one the city has (ie it has only one extra and won't be able to grow again and support the person).

You use the one spare food that can't sustain a person in its own city and send it to another city that has one spare food. This way you will get a city that can sustain a new person, rather than 2 cities that can't.

PS: How do you get 6 advances a turn?

I am a new convert to the power of carvans and freight. I never realized they gave the same number of gold and science resources. So if you deliver several caravans or freight a turn, your science and gold will be huge.

If you deliver enough in the turn you will discover the tech you were working on, then pick another, the surplus science you have will allow you to discover that one also, and so on until you don't have enough science to roll you over to the new tech.

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Remember the golden rule, he with the most gold rules.

 

[starlifter]

...
Given WLT_ will only add 20 pop (at least in ToT) and new pop takes hundreds of turns.
...

Not true. You can celebrate as long as you have as many happy people (or more) as content, with no unhappy. The growth will occur as long as you have at lest 1 surplus food.

The last instant growth will be from 40 to 41 (You cannot have more than 20 happy citizens in a city).

After 41, its either adding food to box "naturally", or using caravans to add food to box.

And doesn't that take 1 food away from the supply city, which would limit the size of that city thereby nullifying any overall pop increase and advantage?

The game's designers intended for there to be a way for one city to help another grow, at the reciprical expense of the supplying city. The Food Caravan Trick (FCT) cirvumvents that by supplying multiple caravans from one city. Since the programming only allows one route for a single commodity from a city, and the program simply considers food on of the many commodities, guess what... the souce city only gets a -1 food, no matter how many caravans are sent to the same destination city. Of course, by pumping food into a city every turn, it will grow (up to 127).

[This message has been edited by starlifter (edited July 15, 2001).]

 

[starlifter]

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quote Relegin Bor:

PS: How do you get 6 advances a turn?
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by Duke of Marlbrough:

I am a new convert to the power of carvans and freight. I never realized they gave the same number of gold and science resources. So if you deliver several caravans or freight a turn, your science and gold will be huge.

Yes, it can be very huge. Typically in late game, I collect about 10,000 in gold and 10,000 in freight on a medium map like GOTM 6.

If you deliver enough in the turn you will discover the tech you were working on,

Not true. If the cost of an advance is 2,500 beakers, but you get 10,000 from freight the assuming you started with 0 beakers, you will have 10,000 beakers. But.... the programs forbids gaining an advance with freight, even though you have 4 times the necessary amount. So forever and all time, the extra 7,500 is wasted. You can never use it, because when you have an advance, the program resets the beakers to 0.

...
then pick another, the surplus science you have will allow you to discover that one also, and so on until you don't have enough science to roll you over to the new tech.

Again, no. You can get up to just short of the next advance, and that's it.


If you have a science cost of about 2,500, but your empire can produce about 13,000 beakers per turn, you can make 6 advances in one turn, assuming you use freight to pump your science just short of the next advance.

To sustain this pace, you must continually incrase your science output one way or the other every turn. Universities, SETI, max trade routes, scientists, freight. It all adds up. I expect the SSC to put out about 900, and other cities from 200-300. I had few size 30+ cities, and none even reached 40.

BTW, when I finished GOTM 6 this weekend, science was at a rate of 7.2 advances per turn. Of course, this is partly due to the fact I was purple.

EDIT: Fix quote boundaries.


[This message has been edited by starlifter (edited July 15, 2001).]