Shadow gauntlet start

[valergrad]

Okay, got it. So, you're proposing after 2nd settler to not yet build granary, but continue build workers/settlers instead for a fast expansion.
In that case we really can delay Pottery a bit and learn Sailing first.
Let's try this, put the hammer down to the REX, as this a shadow game and using advices is a very important part of it ( though in my games i never expanded so swiftly, but it easily could be a mistake).

In that case I believe I did mistake on the previous move already. I shouldn't direct worker to the west. Because chopping forest to the NW from Capital would save 1 turn of movement for Settler later... 1 turn earlier landing if i would thought about it earlier.

Anyway, I am continuing. It seems for a faster settler we will grow to size 2 first then whip at the end. Growing will take 2 moves, 1 move for switching to slavery and this is still faster then making this 30 hammers at size 1 ( we are doing 7 hammers per move ).


T18. Started to learn Sailing. Didn't switch to Slavery yet, as I want that chop hammers would go for Settler when city will grow to size 2. If I will switch to slavery now, then I'll not manage to grow first, so I have to switch production and it seems wasting 3 bulbs.
T19. Buddhism founded somewhere. Quite late.
T20. City grown to size 2. Switched production to settler, switched to slavery and 1st chop gives +20 hammers for settler.
T22. Started to chop second forest. And ... Montezuma's scout arrived from the north-west. We got the worst possible neighbor, i guess.
Just noticed that Boudica switched to Hinduism and Montezuma haven't religion yet. Set espionage weight 100% to Monty, as he is our neighbor and Boudica ( it seems ) located on another island.
T25. Whipping settler.
T26. Now we need to outline places for cities. I prefer to think ahead as I want to shove at island as many cities as possible ( we are playing for score!).
What do you think about that locations ( marked as c1, c2.... c8 in that order )? c2 and c3 are there to choke Monty. What I know about Monty - is that war is inevitable anyway, so no point of trying to calm him down by not having border tensions.

South doesn't look attractive:

Other questions are - what to learn after Sailing ( My opinion: now we need to learn Wheel & Pottery. I love granaries! ),
and what to build in capital. I am thinking to use 3rd chop and one more whip for a second worker, and after the first worker will go to the second city to help with chopping a workboat.

 

[valergrad]

Played 5 more turns. The most important thing is that I've found Monty's capital and stone near it.
Now may be it's time to think . May be I should stop REX and instead I should try to wipeout Monty and get stone? In that case the whole island will be for me and also it could be the only available source of stone.
Another strategy could be settle city where scout currently is located and defend it against Monty's army and culture pressure.

 

[jorissimo]

Just a couple of points, though not exhaustive: there's not much of a point in making such an elaborate dot map at this stage. Also Monty is kind of far for an early rush and getting the stone is only worth it if you can get Mids, but you can't both rush Monty and build the Mids (and you actually want to build the GLH). You have plenty of land to settle including some spots that are immediately productive. The spot where Monty's scout is standing in your penultimate post is excellent and should be prioritized. It can share the capital's clam and the lake tiles will be juicy with a lighthouse. As sampsa said in another thread, just found 4 insta-connected, readily productive cities asap (preferably by about 1600 BC), and then evaluate the position. Oh, and build the GLH.

 

[pigswill]

Given you don't have any strategic resources I'm not sure of the wisdom of rushing Monte with warriors and archers. Blocking him is less risky as long as you go for archery. Third option is to let him alone, settle your own cities and finish exploring your island.

 

[sampsa]

Just a couple of points, though not exhaustive: there's not much of a point in making such an elaborate dot map at this stage. Also Monty is kind of far for an early rush and getting the stone is only worth it if you can get Mids, but you can't both rush Monty and build the Mids (and you actually want to build the GLH). You have plenty of land to settle including some spots that are immediately productive. The spot where Monty's scout is standing in your penultimate post is excellent and should be prioritized. It can share the capital's clam and the lake tiles will be juicy with a lighthouse. As sampsa said in another thread, just found 4 insta-connected, readily productive cities asap (preferably by about 1600 BC), and then evaluate the position. Oh, and build the GLH.

Exactly this. Mark the best spots and grab them. I wouldn't seriously consider going for Monty, you have an empire to build up, GLH and Oracle to plan.

 

[jorissimo]

Specifically, after the gold spot I'd settle the western wet rice spot (1 E of rice). For that you'd need to research agriculture. You also need masonry for the GLH, and priesthood for the Oracle.

Edit for clarity: with gold spot I mean the aforementioned Monty scout clam-sharing gold spot.

 

[pigswill]

Settling on the marble makes it difficult to work the two western gold tiles, maybe settling 2E of rice and a border pop but that's a longer term project.

 

[sampsa]

For me, settling on western gold is forced (I'd have gone there as 2nd city). Yes it kills a decent early tile, but you have plenty of those tiles and can share capital clam+lake. Everything else is just very very slow.

For western rice, why not 1S of rice? Doesn't kill forest. I can't see if there is seafood so assuming there is not.

You seem to mark and order cities based on long term prospects. Your first cities should be ones that give the most immediate benefit.

 

[valergrad]

For me, settling on western gold is forced (I'd have gone there as 2nd city). Yes it kills a decent early tile, but you have plenty of those tiles and can share capital clam+lake. Everything else is just very very slow.

Hm, okay, let's settle this as 3rd city. But as a 2nd city it would be probably not as good as there would be no boats for clam yet.

For western rice, why not 1S of rice? Doesn't kill forest. I can't see if there is seafood so assuming there is not.

Are you speaking about the same rice there?
There are two 'western' rices. One can be named 'western-southern' and another 'western-northern', right near Monty.
It seems to me that 1S is the best spot for western-southern rice.
But I am not sure that jorissimo had in mind the same rice.
May be he had in mind norther rice to choke Monty and try to grab stone later.

Just a couple of points, though not exhaustive: there's not much of a point in making such an elaborate dot map at this stage. Also Monty is kind of far for an early rush and getting the stone is only worth it if you can get Mids, but you can't both rush Monty and build the Mids (and you actually want to build the GLH). You have plenty of land to settle including some spots that are immediately productive. The spot where Monty's scout is standing in your penultimate post is excellent and should be prioritized. It can share the capital's clam and the lake tiles will be juicy with a lighthouse. As sampsa said in another thread, just found 4 insta-connected, readily productive cities asap (preferably by about 1600 BC), and then evaluate the position. Oh, and build the GLH.

Okay, regarding Monty I have the same opinion. I just think I play too passive at the beginning, so wanted to double check that I am not doing the same mistake here.

You seem to mark and order cities based on long term prospects. Your first cities should be ones that give the most immediate benefit.

Yes, probably this is what I do wrongly.

 

[sampsa]

Hm, okay, let's settle this as 3rd city. But as a 2nd city it would be probably not as good as there would be no boats for clam yet.

Yeah but did your 2nd city have a boat ready? In general closer is better.

Are you speaking about the same rice there?
There are two 'western' rices. One can be named 'western-southern' and another 'western-northern', right near Monty.
It seems to me that 1S is the best spot for western-southern rice.

Ah, possibly not. Northern rice is far.

 

[valergrad]

Okay, I've played several more turns. Hopefully not too many mistakes this time)

For turns T32-T45:

Uppsala built work boat, then Settler, then started Granary ( all with chopping support of a worker ).
Nidaros built workboat, almost finished Settler ( two woods chopped). Now it can whip it this turn, not sure that I want to lost goldmine tile.
Haithabu started Granary.
Need to think where to settle the 4st city. What do you think about spots that are marked as c1 and c2 on the map?

Plans for Uppsala: to finish Granary, then Lighthouse and Boat - with whipping it should be very fast, and then with Settler-whipping it should build Oracle in reasonable time even without woods.
Plans for Nidaros: as it seems it have only 2 good tiles, then probably it should be settler/worker builder.
Plans for Haithabu: as it has 4 woods in vicinity, probably this city should build GLH. So, Granary, Lighthouse, GLH.

Foreign trade: Gave Monty fish and clams and gave Boudica fish and gold. Trying to establish some positive relationships)
Monty switched to Hinduism, so he knows the person who founded it.
Checked eash-north of the island - still nobody there.

Science: Learnt wheel and pottery, meditation and polytheism.
In plans to get masonry and monotheism for a religion. Then - priesthood ( to start Oracle ), writing and mathematics.

 

[sampsa]

You are now seeing why I didn't even want to go pottery before oracle-techs. Yes granaries are good, but now they have halted your expansion. Building boats, settlers, workers is more important. Uppsala is now nicely set up (works all the good tiles and has no food in the bar), probably slow build another worker before granary?

I'd certainly go for c2 next, it doesn't need boats (that are hard to get) and has two forest.

 

[jorissimo]

I was indeed talking about the same rice as sampsa - directly west of the capital on the same latitude. And I agree C2 is better than 1E of the rice, I hadn't thought about saving the forest.

 

[ariosto]

Could you provide the starting save? I would like to try an alternative strategy on the same map.

Talking about the actual game.

1. Uncover coast to Boudicca to get 3 trade routes. You can either scout SE peninsula or Monty's land. This is very important.

2. Of course I want Oracle ( Oracle Civil Services would be perfect, but I don't know if it is too optimistic on prince)

   I don't think it is optimistic below empreror. I think, it is a bare minimum of what you should get. So you should aim for it.
3. Getting gold start and not working it for the first 50 turns is somewhat pointless. I think, you really should have worked it earlier (like 3-2 whip settler instead of 2-1). Try to keep it working from now
4. Where are you going to build Oracle? Consider keeping at least one math forest for it.
5. I don't think you need Mono for religion now. In fact, I'm not sure if you will get it. You can get Confucianism instead. Getting hinduism from Boudicca would be perfect scenario, though.
6. I'm not sure if I like granary in Haithabu for now. This city can work clam + 2gold for some time and clam + gold later so it will not have high food surplus for a long time. Perfect place to build settlers/workers. Consider switching granary to workboat for Nidaros clams. You can finish granary later.

 

[valergrad]

. Yes granaries are good, but now they have halted your expansion. Building boats, settlers, workers is more important. Uppsala is now nicely set up (works all the good tiles and has no food in the bar), probably slow build another worker before granary?

Hmm, didn't get why it halted expansion actually... I mean, this cities from time to time should build something allowing them to grow. Isn't granary is the best choice for this? Especially in Nidaros that have tons of food.
Now they both size 1 and they building Granary whilst growing. They need to grow at least to size 2, right?


Regarding 3rd worker - what he will do now? Two goldmines will be improved in the next 4 moves by current workers. They also can support additional chopping here and there for a new cities or improving rice. And I am thinking about saving 3 woods near Haithabu for GLH. I just don't see efficient tasks for the 3rd worker, more valuable than doubling growth rate like it does Granary.

 

[valergrad]

Could you provide the starting save? I would like to try an alternative strategy on the same map.

1. I don't think you need Mono for religion now. In fact, I'm not sure if you will get it. You can get Confucianism instead. Getting hinduism from Boudicca would be perfect scenario, though

Hmm, so you're proposing to skip Judaism and Org religion with it's nice bonus +25% ? And free borders expansions for one city, at least.
I mean, CoL will be much later... and I even don't know the person who founded Hinduism - not sure that there is probability to get it.

Could you provide the starting save? I would like to try an alternative strategy on the same map.

Sure. No spoilers please)

 

[valergrad]

Comparing two city spots - C1 and C2 from the previous screen for the 4th city.

C1 has double fish.
First 5 turns we get +2 food +2 hammers, and at that time we can chop boat. Then we get 5 food for the next 8 turns, grow to size 3, and we can whip 2nd boat.

So, after 13 turns we will get size 2 with 2 boats or in other words +8 +1 +7 just from tiles. Later there will be possibility to settle one more city to the east and share one fish with it ( if Monty will not take this spot first ).

It seems that C2 ( wet rice ) will never achieve that.
It can get +5 at the same 4 turns by improving rice, but growing it to size 2 gives just +1 . At size 2 it will give +5 +1 +1 from tiles. At size 3 ( considering no whipping for the boat required ) it will give
+5 +2 +1 . And we will have to learn Agriculture for that.

So, C2 will never be as good as C1 - it seems to me. Yes, it has several forests, but this is one-time bonus, and what we can do with them right now? Chop both to settle at C1?

What am I missing here, considering that people advice me to settle on C2 first, not at C1?

 

[sampsa]

Hmm, didn't get why it halted expansion actually... I mean, this cities from time to time should build something allowing them to grow. Isn't granary is the best choice for this? Especially in Nidaros that have tons of food.
Now they both size 1 and they building Granary whilst growing. They need to grow at least to size 2, right?

Well true, you need to be putting into something while growing. Usually you will need some warriors even at this level. Ah now I realized that probably there are no barbs in this game!

Anyway what I meant earlier is that getting the tech just to put some here and there to granaries is probably not worth it, because it delays Oracle date. I might also be wrong.

Regarding 3rd worker - what he will do now? Two goldmines will be improved in the next 4 moves by current workers. They also can support additional chopping here and there for a new cities or improving rice. And I am thinking about saving 3 woods near Haithabu for GLH. I just don't see efficient tasks for the 3rd worker, more valuable than doubling growth rate like it does Granary.

If nothing to do, then you should build a settler indeed.

C1 has double fish.
First 5 turns we get +2 food +2 hammers, and at that time we can chop boat. Then we get 5 food for the next 8 turns, grow to size 3, and we can whip 2nd boat.

So, after 13 turns we will get size 2 with 2 boats or in other words +8 +1 +7 just from tiles. Later there will be possibility to settle one more city to the east and share one fish with it ( if Monty will not take this spot first ).

It seems that C2 ( wet rice ) will never achieve that.
It can get +5 at the same 4 turns by improving rice, but growing it to size 2 gives just +1 . At size 2 it will give +5 +1 +1 from tiles. At size 3 ( considering no whipping for the boat required ) it will give
+5 +2 +1 . And we will have to learn Agriculture for that.

Your calculations seem to (completely?) ignore the fact that boats cost 30. Thus another city can for example have a granary by the point fish-city has two boats.

You are correct that a FIN coastal fish is a monster tile. And honestly maybe it is better to go there first even if it's slower to set up and costs more maintenance because it has better tiles. In general go for the best sites first, but also take into account how easy the city is to set up.

I also didn't understand you don't have agri...

 

[valergrad]

In the meantime run 10 simulations of maps until T125 with the same settings and leaders to get idea about what typical timings for the wonders we can expect ( as I have no idea, have only understanding about deity level).

This is what I've got ( turns from fastest to slowest):

Judaism - 36(!!), 59, 63, 63, 65, 70, 74, 80, 81, 90
Confucianism - 102, 106, 108, 111, 113, 113, 116, 116, 118, 125

Stonehenge - 59, 61, 66, 68, 73, 73, 74, 80, 81, 85
Oracle - 80, 90, 91, 95, 98, 100, 100, 104, 107, 117
GLH - 69(!!), 87, 89, 91, 102, 105, 107, 111, 114, >125
Artemis - 100, 108, 117, 122, 122, 123, 125, >125, >125, >125
Great wall - I don't care, as we don't have barbs.

So, building Oracle around T75 really could give us Oracle Civile Services. And even if we delay it to T90, chances are still good.

 

[ariosto]

Hmm, so you're proposing to skip Judaism and Org religion with it's nice bonus +25% ? And free borders expansions for one city, at least.
I mean, CoL will be much later... and I even don't know the person who founded Hinduism - not sure that there is probability to get it.

Barring from your screenshots Monty founded Hinduism (I thought it was Boudicca).
Yes, I propose to skip Judaism. In my mind you should try to Oracle CS, so CoL shouldn't be, like, MUCH later. You can research Mono after it. Alternatively, you can research Alphabet and trade for it.
Also, don't forget that you need to pay an anarchy turn for it. If you really want it, try to make double civics swap (like Bureau + OrgRel).

GLH - 69(!!), 87, 89, 91, 102, 105, 107, 111, 114, >125

Wow, these timings are really shocking. Guess, you need to have some luck in these Gauntlets