Help me advance in science

[AlextheGr8]

Every game I play at least 2 AI are so far ahead of me in science. I just entered the renaissance era while the AI just advanced to the Industrial Era. Obviously I have no chance of winning a science victory and cannot defeat them in time to win domination. Can you give me some tips to advancing in science as fast as them? I'm only playing the 2nd or 3rd easiest difficulty level but still suck at this.

Last game Gandhi had 18 wonders and Darius had 10 and both were at least 1 era ahead of me in science. What are they doing right and I'm doing wrong?

 

[gunnergoz]

Don't know how you play, but I emphasize building culture as much as possible early on, since it allows for more production towards wonders. More culture eventually lets you exploit the Innovation (or whatever the science tree is called) tree. There is also an early choice in Tradition IIRC that boosts science early on. And if I want to really attack science, I play Babylon.

I've had good starts on coasts that allowed me to corner a lot of the early wonders, which helps. But it seems that some AI's beeline science from mid game on and I'm still trying to figure how to beat that in the mid and late game.

Not that I'm an expert, just telling you how I try to win. Even so, the later game wonders can be much competed over.

 

[AlextheGr8]

So you go into each city and select culture as the city focus?

 

[mitsho]

Science comes (at the moment) from population. So it's important to let your cities grow, i.e. improve the ressource tiles as soon as possible and to expand with other cities as well. Maritime city states give food (= population = science), so try to ally with them. Secondly, buildings like the library or the National College improve them. Try to build them quickly as well. These buildings are found in the upper part of the tech tree, so research these techs first as well. All these things aren't cheap, so sell your ressources you don't need to the AI's as soon as you can.

Most importantly though, in VEM science pacts can give you a lot of science compared to vanilla. Thus have money ready to make Research Agreements. They double when you are friends with that civ, so try to make alliances (not with everybody at the same time though ).

Does that help?

 

[AlextheGr8]

Thanks for the tips. So I should be leaving the city focus default of population? I usually set most to gold to keep a big army and buy buildings and units when needed. Apparently that hurts my science?

 

[mitsho]

Best not to focus your cities at all. Best to micromanage them yourself, to various degrees.

Food should be the highest priority and your happiness count should always be around zero (although with the happiness science bonus in VEM, you can let it get to 20 plus or so). Next important yield is production since it's cheaper to build stuff with hammers than buy them with gold. Gold tiles are only secondary since you can get gold by selling luxury and strategy ressources, trading open borders, building markets, pillaging and rooting up barbarians, deploying great merchants and other stuff. Culture and Science are yields not primarily gained by territory, but in cities, so they are different.

I would keep the food focus and set some gold tiles manually if you want it

It's difficult to give these tips in a general way. Are you more of a warmonger or a builder? Do you go after city states in general?

One last general tip: Don't build any wonders. Wonders are nice, but every time you build one, you can't build something else. It's hard I know, not to start wonders

 

[Zaldron]

Thanks for the tips. So I should be leaving the city focus default of population? I usually set most to gold to keep a big army and buy buildings and units when needed. Apparently that hurts my science?

I only use two options: default and production. Unless I'm competing for a wonder default with a few locked tiles and specialists gives by far the best outcome with minimal micro (which I don't strongly enjoy). If I'm cranking a wonder production is a solid option, keeping an eye on food needs.

 

[Seek]

Honestly the best tutorial would probably be to watch MadDjinn's videos - even if you don't "study" them you'll probably pick up some good habits just by watching (he's playing vanilla, but most of the stuff is totally applicable for VEM). Plus, they're entertaining!

 

[gunnergoz]

So you go into each city and select culture as the city focus?

Only if it makes a substantial difference in speeding up cultural progress...most of the early game, it does not. What I end up doing is building up sufficient pop to make a decent production base, then focus on production in the capital and go for as many wonders as I possibly can get that boost culture...Stonehenge, Pyramids etc. I try to get as many culture "boxes" done as possible mostly in Tradition, Liberty and Piety or whatever religion is called. I also do the warfare line to at least get culture points for each kill. The idea is to get a new cultural tradition opportunity every 7-9 turns if possible.

More wonders generally leads to more science and more great people, which you can leverage into science progress.

Where it goes haywire, and I'm still working on beating this, is that somewhere around the Renaissance, the AI seems to beeline science better than I do and starts to pick up wonders much faster than I - particularly the science heavy hitters like Babylon and Korea. I probably rest on my laurels and expand too much and that is why it gets away from me...still working on that I admit. The focus on wonders in the capital tends to make your empire expand more slowly than otherwise. I try to get 2-3 additional cities in before the Renaissance, sometimes more.

 

[Sanguinus]

Currently I am playing king difficulty @ marathon speed and I was always first or second in tech research, but it is surely a race because the AI spams lot more cities than I would do.

In the early game it is very important to grow fast in population. I am playing Japan, so the barbarians are not really a problem for me. Dealing with these grant culture, gold, experience through the appropiate policies.
Some wonders are really important for me, especially in the early game: e.g. the pyramids, which speed up improvements. So improvement of tiles is also vital, then comes settling. Look out for wonders which grant great scientists and such. Of course, if you have only one city, you shouldn't start builing a wonder: some military units, one or two workers, a settler and of course normal buildings have higher priority.
The first cities should be founded near (improved) luxury goods to keep the happiness above 0, besides the usual river, coastal, strat ressource tiles. Don't hesitate to settle many tiles away if there's something more valuable, you can close these gaps of your territory later.
At this time, you should have met a least one AI. Trade, open borders (if gold is a factor), try to establish alliances with ressource treaties.
In the tech tree, I choose improvement techs first, then military (to keep the AI at arm's length), gold (if this runs low), finaly culture (to spread the territory and speed up policies) and happiness (to maintain citiy growth and speed up golden ages) techs.

So these are some tips for marathon game speed
Don't know if they are applicable to faster speed settings.

 

[mitsho]

Regarding Seek's youtube link, I was thinking on tutorial videos or texts, but couldn't think of any. I'd advise as well to watch those first.

@gunnergoz It's natural that you fall behind in science if you focus on culture. That's the way the game is set up. Try not to focus once on wonders, as you will not get them on higher difficulty levels anyways.

 

[AlextheGr8]

I just see myself doing well, building wonders, lots of buildings, good quality units, advancing faster than my neighbors, but always see at least 2 civs with double my score and just owning everyone in advancing in science. Is it because they have less neighbors around them so they spam cities constantly while I'm busy fighting neighbors off?

 

[Txurce]

I just see myself doing well, building wonders, lots of buildings, good quality units, advancing faster than my neighbors, but always see at least 2 civs with double my score and just owning everyone in advancing in science. Is it because they have less neighbors around them so they spam cities constantly while I'm busy fighting neighbors off?

They have double the score because their bonuses make it much easier for them to expand (and if they had neighbors, they pushed them back). The AI have had a recent uptick in relative science performance, but it's still easy to catch them in the mid- to late game by focusing on beakers.

 

[Thalassicus]

The leaders which focus on wonders and science typically have a weak military. If you can face the diplomatic repercussions, send a small force of vanguard units (like Skirmishers) over to your enemy, promoted with Survivalism, and pillage all their improvements. Focus on destroying their economy instead of taking cities. This will set them back a lot without a major military investment on your part.

All these things aren't cheap, so sell your resources you don't need to the AI's as soon as you can.

Golden ages now give tons of science and growth. Sell off excess luxuries, but keep the last unit of each luxury for happiness to get a golden age. I try to get as much happiness as possible, and do very well on emperor difficulty.

 

[Txurce]

The leaders which focus on wonders and science typically have a weak military. If you can face the diplomatic repercussions, send a small force of vanguard units (like Skirmishers) over to your enemy, promoted with Survivalism, and pillage all their improvements. Focus on destroying their economy instead of taking cities. This will set them back a lot without a major military investment on your part.

I'm embarrassed to say I've never tried this. Probably because I build a defense force, kill the other army, then take the cities. But still... I'm going to try it just to see what effect it has.

 

[gunnergoz]

I seldom warlord and conquer, so the culture angle appeals to me. And one does not need to build your first couple workers or settler, since they come as bonuses with cultural traditions and wonders that I try to get first.

But I don't play above Prince level anyway and figure that, if I have to do that and raise it to God level or whatever, to give the AI a fighting chance against me, the game's pretty well broken and I lose interest in it.

So I'd rather play Prince and see how I can finesse my way out of this predicament with the AI's seemingly beating me with science after the Renaissance.

 

[Thalassicus]

I did "pillage wars" all the time in Civ 4, because I played mostly peaceful games. It's very easy to cripple an opponent with a few fast-moving pillagers.

Nowadays I lean towards conquest games, so I take territory instead of pillaging it. All your city are belong to us!

 

[Zaldron]

I'm embarrassed to say I've never tried this. Probably because I build a defense force, kill the other army, then take the cities. But still... I'm going to try it just to see what effect it has.

This. And in some cases this would have really helped my peaceful defense a lot more than the approaches I did take.

 

[Dunkah]

I did "pillage wars" all the time in Civ 4, because I played mostly peaceful games. It's very easy to cripple an opponent with a few fast-moving pillagers.

Nowadays I lean towards conquest games, so I take territory instead of pillaging it. All your city are belong to us!

I used to do this in Civ IV as well... but they had cities that you could hit several turns in a row and then it would take 20 - 50 turns to get them back up to speed. Pillaging now hurts for a little bit but it only takes a turn or two to get the resource back up and running.

 

[AlextheGr8]

Good idea about pillaging. Although I've noticed the AI usually instantly has 5-6 units the first few turns, and starts trying to push me around. I'm a peaceful civ who only builds range units for defense, that's probably why the AI picks on me.