Heroes of Might and Magic III

[Psyringe]

Well, I said my info was from before the expansions, at least the difference in the number of factions was larger then. The "lumping together" of Inferno and Necropolis seems to have been a misinformation though, Wikipedia lists them as separate factions too. Don't recall where I got that from, perhaps it was just a pre-release rumor (although I was fairly sure that I had checked it).

Anyway, after reading a bit more about the expansions, I'm upping my "purchase price" threshold from 5 to 10 Euro. In any case, the good thing will be that I won't have any great expectations about the game, so it won't be able to disappoint me.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Well, I said my info was from before the expansions, at least the difference in the number of factions was larger then. The "lumping together" of Inferno and Necropolis seems to have been a misinformation though, Wikipedia lists them as separate factions too. Don't recall where I got that from, perhaps it was just a pre-release rumor (although I was fairly sure that I had checked it).

Anyway, after reading a bit more about the expansions, I'm upping my "purchase price" threshold from 5 to 10 Euro. In any case, the good thing will be that I won't have any great expectations about the game, so it won't be able to disappoint me.

You're actually thinking HoMM4. HoMM4 combined Inferno and Necropolis.
Sorry, I misread your post when I replied to it.
That's one of many, many, maaaaany reasons why HoMM4 is the worst HoMM game. It was seriously a piece of crap.

 

[(Pro)Peanut_P]

I wasn't fond of HoMM5 myself, felt too stripped down.
It wasn't as bad as 4, though. 4 was easily the weakpoint of the series.

I have to disagree, i think 4 was far superior too all the others. ALthough the nostalgia from the earlier games are great and they still are good games. I love the concept of being able to have more than 1 hero per army. For instance having a chaos magic,nature magic and barbarian hero in one army is really powerful. Also being able to have creatures roam the map without heroes is very beneficial. Leaving creatures behind that you aqquire from there recruit sites (randomly spread around the map) can save you from constantly travelling back with a hero and can be used as sentries for mines etc...
I find HOMM4 has alot more depth and strategy needed,thus why IMO is the best in the series.


I'm also nota fan of 5 though, Ubisoft came along and killed it.........DEAD!!

 

[Heretic_Cata]

I have to disagree, i think 4 was far superior too all the others. ALthough the nostalgia from the earlier games are great and they still are good games. I love the concept of being able to have more than 1 hero per army. For instance having a chaos magic,nature magic and barbarian hero in one army is really powerful. Also being able to have creatures roam the map without heroes is very beneficial. Leaving creatures behind that you aqquire from there recruit sites (randomly spread around the map) can save you from constantly travelling back with a hero and can be used as sentries for mines etc...
I find HOMM4 has alot more depth and strategy needed,thus why IMO is the best in the series.


I'm also nota fan of 5 though, Ubisoft came along and killed it.........DEAD!!

Having more heroes in the army was incredibly overpowered. The whole point of the game was to upgrade your heroes so much that the army became almost irrelevant. That is ... very far from what the Heroes series is about. They chose to make the hero less involved in combat in 5, but make him more involved than in 3 - so they chose the better option. Acquiring creatures from dwellings and other towns without needing heroes is again present in 5, in the form of caravans so there's no need to ever travel back.

Can't really tell if you're trolling or not tho, you're the first person ever to say 4 is better in any way than the other heroes games.

 

[Psyringe]

You're actually thinking HoMM4. HoMM4 combined Inferno and Necropolis.

Ahh, thanks. Good to know that I wasn't completely delusional (just, erm, confused ).

Having more heroes in the army was incredibly overpowered. The whole point of the game was to upgrade your heroes so much that the army became almost irrelevant. That is ... very far from what the Heroes series is about.

HoMM4 has its fans too, but I agree that the mechanism you describe above was detrimental to the game. It marginalized the non-hero units. I tried to get into HoMM4 several times but always kept returning to HoMM3, this was one of the reasons for it.

 

[Danielos]

HoMM 3 is the best game in the series, but HoMM 2 will always be my favourite. The crisp, colorful cartoony graphics, the brilliant ambient SFX and the incredible score (with opera!) was so incredibly charming and captivating.

 

[Danielos]

I hate that the latest Heroes-games have made practically no new advancements to the old formula. We already have Heroes 3, so why make new versions of that old game? I think the battles should be on a large 3D map (similar to the Total War games) where 100 archers actually is represented by more than just a single archer with a 100-label under it. Also, the terrain must be much more important.

 

[Yeekim]

Having more heroes in the army was incredibly overpowered. The whole point of the game was to upgrade your heroes so much that the army became almost irrelevant. That is ... very far from what the Heroes series is about.

Well, the franchise IS called "Heroes" not "Assorted Troops".

 

[Psyringe]

Well. Interestingly, HoMM5 Gold Edition just dropped to 10 Euro, and since this discussion had just caused me to raise my buying threshold for this game from 5 to 10 Euro, I bought it.

So far it's a bit of a struggle. The factions, hero abilities, town buildings etc. seem nicely done, the amount of content there is satisfying.

But the interface is driving me nuts.

I started in the underworld, and for some reason, the developers thought it would be a great idea to have immense walls and pillars blocking the player's view. They don't even look nice. In HoMM3, the map shows everything I want to see. In HoMM5, I'm so far finding myself cursing the controls because I have to wiggle the camera to even look at some spots of the map (like small alcoves).

There is no clear distinction between buildings. In HoMM3, an ore pit is immediately recognizable since it looks like a big pile of ore. A sawmill has some wood in front of it. Each mine type has its own distinctive coloring and is easily recognizable. In HoMM5, ore pits and sawmills are both brown wooden buildings. I have to zoom and tilt the camera to identify the buildings.

Although the map is more empty than that of HoMM3, it's harder to make out objects. I find myself moving the cursor around my hero, "guessing" whether there might still be a chest or some other object next to him.

The graphics are inexplicably laggy. I have an ATI Radeon HD 5670, i.e. a card that came out several years after the game was released. One would imagine that it's fast enough for the game. Yet, when I start it, I'm looking at a frame rate of perhaps 1 FPS in the menu. I then have to switch the settings to "default" to get fluid movements. Then I have to set things like music volume to my preferred value because it got set to default too. I have to redo this every 4th or 5th time I start the game.

In game, the cursor was lagging to the point of being unusable. The only way to fix this was to switch on the "hardware cursor" setting. The cursor now moves smoothly, but is so small that I have to take guesses as to whether it shows a standing or prancing horse.

Even with all graphics set to the lowest setting (again, this is on an ATI HD 5670), there are some stutters in the graphics (like in the circle moving around the active hero, or in the camera fly-by in towns).

Combat wastes 30% of the screen for "surroundings", and draws the creatures so small that any details on them are lost. I can zoom in, but then I only see a part of the battlefield. Zooming in isn't such a good idea anyway though because the creatures are very primitively done. I don't care much about looks in a strategy game, but it baffles me that amateurish 3d graphics are seen as an improvement over HoMM3's very well-done 2d graphics.

Information isn't available when I need it. My hero has a special ability which causes his Blade Dancers to be "Enraged". What does "being enraged" mean? I have no idea. The hero's screen doesn't explain it. The blade dancers' screen doesn't explain it either. I'm clicking my way through a labyrinth of submenus and still can't find it.

The towns now have a useless 3d look. Again, previously (in HoMM3) I saw everything I needed at a glance. In HoMM5 I don't.

Also, there are tons of submenus, sub-submenus, and sub-sub-submenus, which are all controlled from an UI element that is tucked away in the bottom right corner of the screen. Instead of controlling the UI elements with buttons on the elements themselves, I always have to move to the bottom right of the screen, check what the controls read (they are different for each screen), click the one I want, then go back to the UI element I wanted to look at, click on the tab I want to see (on the far left of the screen), then go to the far right again if I want to navigate to a different screen ... it's madness. All the while, one half of the screen is wasted showing useless graphics, while the info I want is limited to the left half of the screen, split into several tabs which have to be accessed one by one.

Even things that should help the player are infected by design madness. There are apparently two types of tool tips showing information an hero abilities; one showing more and one showing less info. I usually start reading the tooltip, and then, while I'm in the middle of it, it suddenly switches from one format to the other, and I have to search for the sentence I was reading. How is that supposed to help me?

This is by far the least usable UI I've ever seen in a HoMM game. It's as if the devs were being paid for the distance the users have to move the mouse back and forth, and for the time users have to spend to figure map objects out.

Also, turn times are surprisingly long for a franchise that always had quick and primitive AIs. I generated the biggest map available (I always play the biggest maps in my strategy games), and already have to wait 2 minutes for the AIs to make their move - and they don't even have much to calculate.

So far, this has been a disappointment. There might still be a good game underneath the horrible UI, but if I can't find a way to make at least the map objects clear and discernible without continuously having to work the camera, I'm not sure if it's worth looking for it. Are there mods which address these issues?

 

[Heretic_Cata]

70% of what you ranted about can be easily fixed if you'd play the tutorial campaign to get accustomed to the game.
20% is a graphics card problem.
10% are legitimate negative points of the game.

And remember, it's a strategy game, it's not all about the graphics.

 

[Psyringe]

Actually, I'm more interested in finding solutions than in finding out whether my problems are considered legitimate. If you know some, please don't hold them back.

I haven't played the tutorial campaign (I usually play HoMM games for the random maps, not for the campaigns), but I read the manual. Does the tutorial cover things in addition to those mentioned in the manual?

I checked some fansites and found out that a patch introduced a "highlight object" command (alt key). It's still needlessly inefficient (it blurs the outline of the object, so I still have to mouse over the object to find out what it actually is), and it's a severe step backwards from the usability of HoMM3, but it helps. The logic for obstructing the player's view first, and then having to patch a command in that at least tells him where the objects are, still escapes me though.

I also found some information about hacking camera parameters that may be useful.

Anyway, despite my rant, help is appreciated. There are things in the game that look like they could be fun (lots of hero skills to explore, for example), but the game so far doesn't make it easy for me to like it.

 

[Yeekim]

It's been quite some time since I played the game and I don't have it on my system any more, but I don't remember having any of the grievances you posted about. Except how the creatures look, of course.

As for the creatures/heroes abilities (and lots of other stuff), I recommend checking out the strategy guide for the game from here. Community made and massive, but pretty easy to navigate.

Also, there is a very useful piece of program called Skillwheel included, which really helped in planning hero development.

As for Enraged:

This creature's Attack increases during combat when any stack of friendly units dies (except resurrected creatures or
creatures summoned on battlefield by magic).

 

[Olav]

HoMM III is one of my favourite games. But it's been a year or so since I played it now.

 

[serek000]

I've never played HoMM3, but I really like HoMM2. Sooner or later I'll pick up a newer edition of HoMM, but I've been going back through HoMM2 and Kings Bounty (the old one, not the new one) recently, so it might take me a while to get to it. I'm looking forward to it, though, should be plenty fun.

 

[kcwong]

70% of what you ranted about can be easily fixed if you'd play the tutorial campaign to get accustomed to the game.
20% is a graphics card problem.
10% are legitimate negative points of the game.

People in Heroes Community and Celestial Heavens have inspected the XML, and made a mod to tweak the AI priorities. The end result is a more difficult game with the difficulty levels feeling more like those of HoMM3.

There're also mods for adding in-game information about Necromancy (what undead can be created from what creatures), Rage, reducing the power of Divine Vengeance, and skill wheels (available for the vanilla, HoF and TotE). Finding them on the HC/CH forums are not easy though (buried inside threads, broken links, etc.)... I would not describe the two forums' structures as satisfactory.

If you are interested, I can post my cache tonight.

And remember, it's a strategy game, it's not all about the graphics.

I've never played HoMM3, but I really like HoMM2. Sooner or later I'll pick up a newer edition of HoMM, but I've been going back through HoMM2 and Kings Bounty (the old one, not the new one) recently, so it might take me a while to get to it. I'm looking forward to it, though, should be plenty fun.

HoMM5 is made by Nival Interactive... for HoMM6 Ubisoft changed to another software house again, so it's hard to tell how it will end up.

The new King's Bounty is pretty nice too... drop the empire building and focus on tactical combat. And the result is the battles are much more interesting than HoMM. The new GotY pack gives you everything (The Legend, Armored Princess and its expansion).

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Actually, I'm more interested in finding solutions than in finding out whether my problems are considered legitimate. If you know some, please don't hold them back.

Anyway, despite my rant, help is appreciated. There are things in the game that look like they could be fun (lots of hero skills to explore, for example), but the game so far doesn't make it easy for me to like it.

Ok, sorry for the late response. I was busy working and drinking these past days(weeks?).

I haven't played the tutorial campaign (I usually play HoMM games for the random maps, not for the campaigns), but I read the manual. Does the tutorial cover things in addition to those mentioned in the manual?

No idea what's in the manual.

I checked some fansites and found out that a patch introduced a "highlight object" command (alt key). It's still needlessly inefficient (it blurs the outline of the object, so I still have to mouse over the object to find out what it actually is), and it's a severe step backwards from the usability of HoMM3, but it helps. The logic for obstructing the player's view first, and then having to patch a command in that at least tells him where the objects are, still escapes me though.

I also found some information about hacking camera parameters that may be useful.

I had the altkey command ever since i installed the game.
As for the camera, however you put it, it will always suck, just like in all other 3D strategy games.
Same as the graphics. It's hiddeous, just like in all other 3D games like this. But then again strategy games don't need good graphics.

There is no clear distinction between buildings. In HoMM3, an ore pit is immediately recognizable since it looks like a big pile of ore. A sawmill has some wood in front of it. Each mine type has its own distinctive coloring and is easily recognizable. In HoMM5, ore pits and sawmills are both brown wooden buildings. I have to zoom and tilt the camera to identify the buildings.

The mines look quite distinct to me.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/adv_map_mines.shtml
(except the abandoned mine - which shouldn't)

Although the map is more empty than that of HoMM3, it's harder to make out objects. I find myself moving the cursor around my hero, "guessing" whether there might still be a chest or some other object next to him.

I'm surprised they kept the combat tile based. In H4 it wasn't.
But as you said, the map isn't as cluttered so i never have your problem.

The graphics are inexplicably laggy. I have an ATI Radeon HD 5670, i.e. a card that came out several years after the game was released. One would imagine that it's fast enough for the game. Yet, when I start it, I'm looking at a frame rate of perhaps 1 FPS in the menu. I then have to switch the settings to "default" to get fluid movements. Then I have to set things like music volume to my preferred value because it got set to default too. I have to redo this every 4th or 5th time I start the game.

In game, the cursor was lagging to the point of being unusable. The only way to fix this was to switch on the "hardware cursor" setting. The cursor now moves smoothly, but is so small that I have to take guesses as to whether it shows a standing or prancing horse.

Even with all graphics set to the lowest setting (again, this is on an ATI HD 5670), there are some stutters in the graphics (like in the circle moving around the active hero, or in the camera fly-by in towns).

Graphic problems, never had them with this game unless i alt-tabed 20 times during gameplay. Even on my old computer it worked smoothly except when i played more than 6 hours continously.

Information isn't available when I need it. My hero has a special ability which causes his Blade Dancers to be "Enraged". What does "being enraged" mean? I have no idea. The hero's screen doesn't explain it. The blade dancers' screen doesn't explain it either. I'm clicking my way through a labyrinth of submenus and still can't find it.

That would be like saying: "these Mighty Gorgons have the Death Stare ability - what does that mean ? I can't find the information anywhere in the game!" when playing Heroes 3.
But anyway, enraged is probably the first ability you encounter if you play the campaign. When a friendly creature stack dies, the creature with the enraged ability gets an increased attack. A lot of creatures in the game has this. Mostly worthless ability.

This is one of the things i liked about Heroes5. All the information i needed was in the game. Didn't have to do everything by trial and error like in Heroes3 or look through manuals or online stategy guides for explanations.

Also, there are tons of submenus, sub-submenus, and sub-sub-submenus, which are all controlled from an UI element that is tucked away in the bottom right corner of the screen. Instead of controlling the UI elements with buttons on the elements themselves, I always have to move to the bottom right of the screen, check what the controls read (they are different for each screen), click the one I want, then go back to the UI element I wanted to look at, click on the tab I want to see (on the far left of the screen), then go to the far right again if I want to navigate to a different screen ... it's madness. All the while, one half of the screen is wasted showing useless graphics, while the info I want is limited to the left half of the screen, split into several tabs which have to be accessed one by one.

Other than the tavern (which you won't be using much in the campaign) i can't think of one place when the interface was even mildly annoying.

Also, turn times are surprisingly long for a franchise that always had quick and primitive AIs. I generated the biggest map available (I always play the biggest maps in my strategy games), and already have to wait 2 minutes for the AIs to make their move - and they don't even have much to calculate.

Never played single player maps in H5. So i don't care about this.

 

[Yeekim]

But anyway, enraged is probably the first ability you encounter if you play the campaign. When a friendly creature stack dies, the creature with the enraged ability gets an increased attack. A lot of creatures in the game has this. Mostly worthless ability.

Pretty much, although one could exploit it be creating stacks of 1 creature. Not going to work for your main army though.

 

[kcwong]

Pretty much, although one could exploit it be creating stacks of 1 creature. Not going to work for your main army though.

Why? Of course it works! In HoMM5 the economy is set up such that you can't possibly hire all the creatures your towns created (If you do, you already have a run away victory in your hands and can do whatever you want).

So even in your main army you always have space to split a stack or two. And early on you most definitely will be splitting your stacks to lower casualties during creeping.

And if you use spell casting units, you almost always split them for top efficiency.

 

[Icekommander]

I am another person who thinks that HOMMIII was the best in the series. I haven't tried the expansion(s? I'm not sure if there are more than one) because the first one turned me off for a number of reasons.

First they screwed with my dungeon town. Dungeon doesn't have Dark Elves dang it

The next was the vanilla was heavily reduced compared to HOMMIII. It only had six towns (Human, Elf, Demon, Undead, Dungeon, Tower) and a limited number of creatures.

For my next point, I quite agree with Psyringe:

As for the camera, however you put it, it will always suck, just like in all other 3D strategy games.
Same as the graphics. It's hiddeous, just like in all other 3D games like this. But then again strategy games don't need good graphics.

Two points here. A) I don't care how it compares to other strategy games, I care if it gets in the way. SCII and Civ did just fine in not getting in my way, and more to the point, HOMMIII didn't either. B) I agree that graphic's don't matter for strategy games. However, I should dang well be able to find my stuff without having to rotate my camera. Going underground is a pain in the arse because I have to rotate my screen all over the place. I don't need good graphics, I do need my graphics to stay out of the way.

 

[Zergy6]

I have the Restoration of Erathia...which is really just HOMM3. I think. Dungeon easily bests everything else. Go black dragons!