Heroic Epic + Ironworks = Overkill?

[yavoon]

HE and IW have no synergy. They both give hammers but they don't multiply each other.

HE and West Point give more soldiers and they are ALL highly promoted. The result is better than the sum of the bonuses.

HE and Globe Theater multiply each other if you are pop rushing, but not if you are drafting.

1 unit/turn is more valuable than an extra promotion.

 

[a4phantom]

1 unit/turn is more valuable than an extra promotion.

Is 1unit/turn in one city (IW and HE) and 1unit/3turns in another better than unit/2turns in two cities (one with IW and the other with HE and West Point), and one of them with an extra promotion? Especially since combining HE and IW means that HE is going to waste whenever you're using IW to build wonders.

 

[jimbob27]

1 unit/turn is more valuable than an extra promotion.

Yeah, but if they're seperate, chances are the heroic epic and the ironworks city with both produce a unit in 2 turns.

Both methods effectively produce 1 unit every turn, except with my method you get +4 experience for half of them.

 

[yavoon]

Is 1unit/turn in one city (IW and HE) and 1unit/3turns in another better than unit/2turns in two cities (one with IW and the other with HE and West Point), and one of them with an extra promotion? Especially since combining HE and IW means that HE is going to waste whenever you're using IW to build wonders.

I dont use it to build wonders. wonders are overrated anyway.

 

[yavoon]

Yeah, but if they're seperate, chances are the heroic epic and the ironworks city with both produce a unit in 2 turns.

Both methods effectively produce 1 unit every turn, except with my method you get +4 experience for half of them.

I'll get more hammers than u. because u have to use some city thats not ur best production city.

 

[a4phantom]

I dont use it to build wonders. wonders are overrated anyway.

Some people have found them handy from time to time.

I'll get more hammers than u. because u have to use some city thats not ur best production city.

That's true but does not diminish his point.

 

[yavoon]

Some people have found them handy from time to time.




That's true but does not diminish his point.

yes but its why I will get more out of my heroic and ironworks then he will.

 

[DaveMcW]

Do you only have 1 production city? In that case it makes sense to pile all your hammer bonuses in that city. But I usually find the difference between my #1 and #2 production cities is not that big.

 

[a4phantom]

yes but its why I will get more out of my heroic and ironworks then he will.

You keep saying that, but we've offered examples of why that's often not the case. Yes you will have one city that can build military units faster than any of his cities, but he will have two cities that can build military units as fast as your top two cities, with more flexibility on use of IW for other purposes and West Point. His army would overwhelm yours because you'd produce at an equal rate but manymore of his units would have extra promos, and he'd be able to use IW for other things while still using his NE city to always produce military units.

By the way, I'm a warmonger like you seem to be, but not everyone is, and seperating IW and HE is *much* better for someone who isn't always at war because IW can build those wonders you despise but which help with cultural victories while the NE city still builds units for defense.

 

[yavoon]

You keep saying that, but we've offered examples of why that's often not the case. Yes you will have one city that can build military units faster than any of his cities, but he will have two cities that can build military units as fast as your top two cities, with more flexibility on use of IW for other purposes and West Point. His army would overwhelm yours because you'd produce at an equal rate but manymore of his units would have extra promos, and he'd be able to use IW for other things while still using his NE city to always produce military units.

By the way, I'm a warmonger like you seem to be, but not everyone is, and seperating IW and HE is *much* better for someone who isn't always at war because IW can build those wonders you despise but which help with cultural victories while the NE city still builds units for defense.

no he wont, because his second best city wont produce the same hammers as my best city will.

 

[a4phantom]

no he wont, because his second best city wont produce the same hammers as my best city will.

Making it much less likely that he'll waste hammers on overflow that just gets carried along turn by turn. Or do you think you'll suddenly start producing 2 units a turn? In any case you're only responding to half of one point out of several.

 

[yavoon]

Making it much less likely that he'll waste hammers on overflow that just gets carried along turn by turn. Or do you think you'll suddenly start producing 2 units a turn? In any case you're only responding to half of one point out of several.

I dont have that problem. and u'd need a hell of a hammer production to have that problem. infantry are 140, and u get +275% so u still need 37 base hammers to make an infantry a turn.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I dont have that problem. and u'd need a hell of a hammer production to have that problem. infantry are 140, and u get +275% so u still need 37 base hammers to make an infantry a turn.

Ah, now the problem becomes clear....

 

[a4phantom]

I dont have that problem. and u'd need a hell of a hammer production to have that problem. infantry are 140, and u get +275% so u still need 37 base hammers to make an infantry a turn.

Then I'm very confused about what you meant by

1 unit/turn is more valuable than an extra promotion.

 

[yavoon]

Then I'm very confused about what you meant by

yah it ends up being like 6 units/7 turns or whatever. so most of the time ur making something u see 1 turn, but 2 turns pops up once in a while.

 

[Master Roshi]

What I do is build HE first in a city with a lot of hammers and then later on build IW.
I am a big fan of West Point with Red Cross so you can build a super army. I usually but those two in the city that has the most hammers and that doesn't already have any National Wonders. This allows me to build a regular standing army fast in the IW & HE city (about a unit every 1 or 2 turns); then in the WP & RC city I can build some Special Forces at about 3-5 turns per unit. I usually win this way. I have a well balanced game plan with this.

 

[Master Roshi]

I do see the advantage of splitting up HE and IW, I have a friend who always does that but she ends up building troops out of that city all the time and not building infrastructure so the city suffers. Also, I understand what people mean when they use IW to build Wonders while building troops in HE but how I get around this problem is by building Wonders when not at war and then Que'ing troops in front of the Wonders when I am at war. No problems so far and I do pretty good at Noble and Prince level this way. Besides it is a fluid game anyway, you may not be able to do it the way you want to when you want to. Role with it man.

 

[a4phantom]

I do see the advantage of splitting up HE and IW, I have a friend who always does that but she ends up building troops out of that city all the time and not building infrastructure so the city suffers. Also, I understand what people mean when they use IW to build Wonders while building troops in HE but how I get around this problem is by building Wonders when not at war and then Que'ing troops in front of the Wonders when I am at war. No problems so far and I do pretty good at Noble and Prince level this way. Besides it is a fluid game anyway, you may not be able to do it the way you want to when you want to. Role with it man.

Yes, of course as with everything it 'depends on the circumstances'. That's one reason I prefer to combine HE and West Point, it allows more flexibility to adapt later in the game, but obviously you're right things might not go according to plan early on and then you build things where you need them.

 

[a4phantom]

yah it ends up being like 6 units/7 turns or whatever. so most of the time ur making something u see 1 turn, but 2 turns pops up once in a while.

Ah I see what you meant.

 

[Paeanblack]

can you sustain building good units every turn this way?
If you can't then you're suboptimal (and i don't think you can, you need to work the tiles for the food to come in)

I can't tell you much else beyond, "try it", since you clearly haven't. Globe Theater + Heroic Epic + high food can pump out your best military unit every turn until you get Infantry. Once you get the draft, that city can produce 3 units every two turns.

The big deal with the Globe/HE is that it can easily be built in the BC era, when the outcome of the game is still in doubt. By the time WP or IW are in play, the gameplay is just mop-up.