Heroic Epic + Ironworks = Overkill?

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I can't tell you much else beyond, "try it", since you clearly haven't. Globe Theater + Heroic Epic + high food can pump out your best military unit every turn until you get Infantry.

Is that really true? The numbers don't quite seem to add up.

You can only produce one unit per turn.
You can only grow one population per turn.
One pop is 30 hammers normal speed.
Heroic Epic gives 100% on military builds (30 hammers).
Forge gives 25% on all builds (7 hammers).
The city itself gives 1 hammer.

So the limit ought to be 68-70 hammers per turn, for cities that are working only food bonuses. With larger population and a few more hammers, you can do better than this, although you begin to cut into your ability to recover a pop point every turn (higher population combined with a reduced surplus).

That's just about enough for a mace per turn. You don't have to build your best unit every turn, I guess - burning two pop yields 140 hammers, which is 100 hammers worth of grenadier followed by 40 hammers of disposalpult. I don't think this math can be made to work for a three pop, though - you would need to find two cheap unit builds, worth less than 70 hammers combined, and those cheap units start becoming obsolete eventually.

When you are drafting, you are wasting the Epic completely, at least to the best of my understanding - the draft costs the same without regard to your production, no?

Without the Heroic Epic, you would be looking at ~40 hammers per turn, which will buy you a disposalpult/turn, until the draft. So maybe its enough to use the globe alone, and dedicate the epic to building units with the more traditional route?

Or I am miscounting something?

 

[cabert]

thanks VoU for making my point clear.

 

[Beamup]

Is that really true? The numbers don't quite seem to add up.

Your analysis appears correct to me.

When you are drafting, you are wasting the Epic completely, at least to the best of my understanding - the draft costs the same without regard to your production, no?

I do believe that's correct.

Without the Heroic Epic, you would be looking at ~40 hammers per turn, which will buy you a disposalpult/turn, until the draft. So maybe its enough to use the globe alone, and dedicate the epic to building units with the more traditional route?

Here's were I object. HE + GT isn't quite as good as "your best unit every turn," it's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's inferior to HE + Hills. Fundamentally, if you're at size 10 (for example) 1 food will give you 1.5 hammers from whipping - and with the Globe, you can convert as much food as you like that way. Two farmed grassland therefore provide 3 hammers - as much as a farmed grassland + mined grassland hill. 9 farmed floodplains, OTOH, provide 27 hammers. 3 farmed floodplains + 6 mined grassland hills gives 18 hammers.

So it's not at all difficult for a high-food location to produce more hammers, via Globe + whip, than a high-hammer location with lots of hills. Really, it depends on what city sites are available. If you've got a city with lots of hills and a couple food resources to work them, but no really high-food cities, put the HE in the hill city. If you've got a city chock-full of floodplains with a couple food bonuses, put the HE + Globe there and whip the bejesus out of it.

 

[cabert]

Here's were I object. HE + GT isn't quite as good as "your best unit every turn," it's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's inferior to HE + Hills.

I do believe i can get a unit /turn in my HE city without GT or IW.
Must check again, but i'm pretty sure i can. (i add some GP if needed : prophets are useless elsewhere )

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Here's were I object. HE + GT isn't quite as good as "your best unit every turn," it's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's inferior to HE + Hills. Fundamentally, if you're at size 10 (for example) 1 food will give you 1.5 hammers from whipping - and with the Globe, you can convert as much food as you like that way. Two farmed grassland therefore provide 3 hammers - as much as a farmed grassland + mined grassland hill. 9 farmed floodplains, OTOH, provide 27 hammers. 3 farmed floodplains + 6 mined grassland hills gives 18 hammers.

I'm not convinced this math is correct (although I agree with the conclusion), because of the population recovery rate.

Since you can only grow one pop per turn, your sustainable rate of hammers from the whip is 30/turn. Which is a lot, especially in the classical era - let's not kid ourselves here - and that total doesn't include whatever hammers you manage to harvest from bodies on the ground.

Assuming you've got a functioning granary, the amount of food surplus you need to grow is 10 + pop (normal speed), which suggests that a grassland farm doesn't help, because the pop point you need to work the farm pushes the surlus food requirement further out. You need floodplains, and the big food resources, to maintain this pace.

Another consideration: if you are whipping a unit every turn, then you are paying a 50% penalty because you haven't invested any hammers yet. So your 30H/turn is effectively 20h/per turn. The sustainable rate really implies whipping 2 pop every other turn (with the overflow invested during the rest turn, and two turns of growth). Of course, 1.61 is broken in this regard, so you can ignore it if you like.

There's also a certain amount of slop available, because the number of hammers you need won't exactly match the city production, and you may miss the food surplus by plus or minus.

But let's set 30 hammers per turn as a target. That's 9 mined grassland hills, a pastured grassland cow, the city tile, and 5 more surplus food. It's been a long time since I've seen a city with that configuration during the classical era.

The downside is that in later eras these two wonders start to conflict with each other. If you switch to nationhood, the epic dies. If you switch out of slavery, the globe theater dies - best case, you can convert all of that surplus food into a traditional production monster (ie - 60+ base production), and one that is immune to war weariness at that. But you won't normally grow past size 20, and can usually manage that much happy in the late game.

I haven't been able to persuade myself that this downside offsets the huge boost in military that you can get in that era. So I'll continue to mix those two wonders together until someone shows me something better.

 

[Demartus]

Does it matter what game speed you're playing? I'd think HE + IW would be overkill on Normal or Quick, but more useful on Epic and Marathon.

With the new generals, I could see it more likely to put HE + WP + MA in one city, and IW+whatever else in the second, for building wonders.

I usually end up with HE+IW, preferably on a coastal production city (though that's rare) to build uber-fast navies. I don't usually have a problem having it build wonders now and again.

 

[Beamup]

I'm not convinced this math is correct (although I agree with the conclusion), because of the population recovery rate.

You're correct that I've neglected this, but I'd argue it only matters in extreme cases. I mean, how often do you actually find a situation where a city could have grown two points in a turn? IMX it's extremely rare.

There's also a certain amount of slop available, because the number of hammers you need won't exactly match the city production, and you may miss the food surplus by plus or minus.

Which I would argue averages out in the end.

I haven't been able to persuade myself that this downside offsets the huge boost in military that you can get in that era. So I'll continue to mix those two wonders together until someone shows me something better.

Personally I'll continue with my usual pattern - refuse to abuse a manifestly unbalanced (to the point of being broken) game mechanic, and therefore deliberately restrict my use of Slavery.

Which doesn't preclude me from arguing the other way in theoretical discussions.

 

[a4phantom]

Does it matter what game speed you're playing? I'd think HE + IW would be overkill on Normal or Quick, but more useful on Epic and Marathon.

Good point. Just curious, does anyone spend Great Engineers on national wonders? I'm always reluctant too because I know I won't lose a race to build them unlike real Wonders, but on the other hand IW and WP take forever to build.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

.....Personally I'll continue with my usual pattern - refuse to abuse a manifestly unbalanced (to the point of being broken) game mechanic, and therefore deliberately restrict my use of Slavery.

Which doesn't preclude me from arguing the other way in theoretical discussions.

Well said that man, and I'd just like to add that I hope the people who do abuse it to the point of it being their sole strategy, can remember actually how to play without it, when its inevitable fix arrives.

 

[yavoon]

Good point. Just curious, does anyone spend Great Engineers on national wonders? I'm always reluctant too because I know I won't lose a race to build them unlike real Wonders, but on the other hand IW and WP take forever to build.

I do, infact iron works is a high priority wonder considering I'm capable of getting an engineer at that point in the game. never use an engineer on westpoint though, if I deem it takes too long to build I dont build it.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Does it matter what game speed you're playing? I'd think HE + IW would be overkill on Normal or Quick, but more useful on Epic and Marathon.

I wouldn't say more useful, but it's a bit less expensive. On the slower game speeds, wasted overflow becomes a non issue. But you are still faced with the reduced quality of the hammers you generate, and the tradeoff you face when building a wonder, which are the bigger issues.

On the other hand, this is supposed to be entertainment - if you prefer the production megacity, you'll have more fun combining the wonders.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Good point. Just curious, does anyone spend Great Engineers on national wonders? I'm always reluctant too because I know I won't lose a race to build them unlike real Wonders, but on the other hand IW and WP take forever to build.

In my experience, if IW and WP take forever to build, you are building them in the wrong place.

I'll occassionally burn a Great Engineer on a national wonder in a low production city (National Epic, Oxford), when I don't have an interesting World Wonder on the Horizon.

 

[Pantastic]

I pretty much only play on marathon, but I never use HE+IW. HE either goes with Globe Theater for crazy production early in the game when it does more or with WP so that my units are better. I think good units are very important in marathon, especially things like CR3 maces that upgrade to the rifles and infantry you'll be using for a long time.

 

[MestreLion]

I dont have that problem. and u'd need a hell of a hammer production to have that problem. infantry are 140, and u get +275% so u still need 37 base hammers to make an infantry a turn.

By the time you can build infantry, 37 base hammers is pretty crappy for your best production city, IMHO.

And i agree with most that HE + IW usually is overkill, specially because IW come very late in game... i know its the best combo for military hammers, but:

- IW comes a bit too late in the game for you wait that long with a single national wonder in your best production city. WP comes much sooner.

- Wonders are usually overrated, yes, but there are some crucial even if you are warmonger: Pentagon and Three Georges Dam. And those can be built anywhere. Even better if its in your IW city . That city is also a nice spot for other secondary wonders, including Mount Rushmore, while your HE + WP city is still busy with troops.

As for other the other wonders:
- Someone mentioned the Red Cross in a coastal city. Thats a great idea, indeed. Medic I, IMHO, is more valuable in ships than in land troops, because its usually easy to get medic I on land troops (just need 1 every 10 units), and, usually you dont stack naval units as much as land ones. Too bad Red Cross comes too late in game.
- GT+NE are THE combo for a gp farm, hands down I would not even blink about building GT elsewhere. They have a terrific synergy.

 

[yavoon]

By the time you can build infantry, 37 base hammers is pretty crappy for your best production city, IMHO.

And i agree with most that HE + IW usually is overkill, specially because IW come very late in game... i know its the best combo for military hammers, but:

- IW comes a bit too late in the game for you wait that long with a single national wonder in your best production city. WP comes much sooner.

- Wonders are usually overrated, yes, but there are some crucial even if you are warmonger: Pentagon and Three Georges Dam. And those can be built anywhere. Even better if its in your IW city . That city is also a nice spot for other secondary wonders, including Mount Rushmore, while your HE + WP city is still busy with troops.

As for other the other wonders:
- Someone mentioned the Red Cross in a coastal city. Thats a great idea, indeed. Medic I, IMHO, is more valuable in ships than in land troops, because its usually easy to get medic I on land troops (just need 1 every 10 units), and, usually you dont stack naval units as much as land ones. Too bad Red Cross comes too late in game.
- GT+NE are THE combo for a gp farm, hands down I would not even blink about building GT elsewhere. They have a terrific synergy.

first of all IW comes way before state property, so there's no way 37 is "not that much". and second for me west point either comes pretty damn soon(I went for cavalry) or pretty damn late(I went for rifles). if I went for rifles I get to IW before west point.

and second of all, 37 is a lot pre state property(or post really). do u ppl play magic games where u never goto war? I play on emperor w/ war weariness and u simply can't grow ur city endlessly, it will be torn back by war occassionally.

also three gorges damn is a bad wonder. pentagon can be nice though. depending on how many more turns the game will last.

 

[MestreLion]

first of all IW comes way before state property, so there's no way 37 is "not that much".

37 is very good, indeed. But in an empire with 15-20 cities, i would expect my best production city to have more than 40.

and second for me west point either comes pretty damn soon(I went for cavalry) or pretty damn late(I went for rifles). if I went for rifles I get to IW before west point.

I usually go straight for Military Tradition. Cavalry rules . And i also delay Chemistry (thus Steel and IW) as long as I can, due to the obsolence of Colossus. But thats a matter of gameplay style and personal preference

As for State Property, i usually dont rely very much on Workshops in my biggest production cities. Hills and mines are the way to go, because they are avaliable since the start. Sure, Workshops are great post-State Property and Replacepble Parts, but then at that time most of my grassland, tropical cities are full of cottages. I use workshops only on recently founded (or conquered) late game cities, because cottages are not worth the time to grow, and they become excelent "backup" production cities, either for military or modern Wonders. But again, thats me, and thats a matter of gameplay style.

also three gorges damn is a bad wonder.

Wow, really?? I think they are worth every hammer! They cost 1750, but the crappiest plant, Coal, is 150. So the Dam pays itself with just 12 cities, a very modest number for modern age. If you consider an Hydro, then 9 cities are enough for you to have your investiment returned. And if built on city with IW, it takes less than 15 turns to build, with no chopping or whipping involved.

 

[yavoon]

37 is very good, indeed. But in an empire with 15-20 cities, i would expect my best production city to have more than 40.



I usually go straight for Military Tradition. Cavalry rules . And i also delay Chemistry (thus Steel and IW) as long as I can, due to the obsolence of Colossus. But thats a matter of gameplay style and personal preference

As for State Property, i usually dont rely very much on Workshops in my biggest production cities. Hills and mines are the way to go, because they are avaliable since the start. Sure, Workshops are great post-State Property and Replacepble Parts, but then at that time most of my grassland, tropical cities are full of cottages. I use workshops only on recently founded (or conquered) late game cities, because cottages are not worth the time to grow, and they become excelent "backup" production cities, either for military or modern Wonders. But again, thats me, and thats a matter of gameplay style.



Wow, really?? I think they are worth every hammer! They cost 1750, but the crappiest plant, Coal, is 150. So the Dam pays itself with just 12 cities, a very modest number for modern age. If you consider an Hydro, then 9 cities are enough for you to have your investiment returned. And if built on city with IW, it takes less than 15 turns to build, with no chopping or whipping involved.

I have another thread where I bag on three gorges. the short version is its a health wonder, not a production wonder that comes AFTER the tech of the thing it replaces(industrialism vs plastics) and unlike industrialism which u beeline for, plastics is a benign and unnecessary tech.

more than 40? I just dont run into city locations that are as good as urs I guess, because that is downright unreasonable w/o workshops.

as for cavalry, cavalry is plenty good. I'd say I actually go for it less because I want to upgrade my maces from previous war rather than prebuild chariots or horse archers or whatever(assuming we're actually trying to get cavalry early). otherwise I like the robustness of upgrading maces and picking up all the economy techs(printing press, banking, guilds, liberalism) that u get on ur way to rifles. financial though makes the cavalry beeline a lot more desirable.

and I agree w/ u on that dont tear ur towns down just to putup workshops thing. towns are too good.

 

[Gumbolt]

I can see argument against IW and HE. Production over flow etc. Its good to have more than one city with a good production. Not gonna do the numbers too early for that.

WP and HE is sweet for maximising benefit. I dont think 1 turn difference is gonna be a huge loss. Be made up elsewhere.

IW in GP farm for the Great Engineers is also a consideration for me although perhaps others are better used. GTheatre and NEpic would work well in a big GP farm instead..

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

IW in GP farm for the Great Engineers is also a consideration for me

You need an awful lot of food bonus and watermills to make that one pay off.

 

[cabert]

You need an awful lot of food bonus and watermills to make that one pay off.

the IW+NE GP farm is one i only dream of