High Priests in MP [Edit: PvP/no barbs] do not exist

[Ecofarm]

Note: MP Advanced start (default points), quick speed...

There is no way to get a disiple/priest to 26xp before turn 160+.

No_barbs

Even tainted ritualists take turn 140+ to get 26xp.

It's too bad. I'd like a priest strat: inquisitor, or each religion gets a special high priest... so many cool units - and none accessible without barbs.

Even if I could get a unit to 26xp, disiples cannot use mana nodes. Therefore, only high priests that start with life mana (are there any? - IIRC there's 2) could cast heal.

So, the unit is impossible to get and even if I could, it would not cast heal (except for the 2 that might start with life).

I hope some change makes these units accessible to no_barb MPers. It would also be nice if we could cast heal with more than 2 units: Yvain and Sphener.

I realize that one could spam altars, but thats not viable in MP. At least, not with any of the leaders or civs I've tried with. Not before turn 160. Mebe if Luchuirp spammed altars with engineers from golden hammers... prob not.

Maybe they are meant to only be in the late game, but their power does not justify that (compared to archmages, druids, etc).


Require only level 3 for upgrade? Even then, they would be pretty late.

 

[Silverkiss]

Go to war and pick weakened enemy units with the disciples ?

Besides that, well, only thing I can say is the game was meant to be played with barbs :x

 

[Ecofarm]

So you think the MP community should be cast aside? Along with anyone who likes unrestricted leaders (other thread)? I think you would be marginalizing a sizable portion of FFH fans - the portion that most interacts with other players... bringing even more people into ffh.

I understand that the unrestricted leaders really throws a curveball at a design with so much flavor and specialization, so I don't expect that to be tweaked soon.

I also understand that MP play was not first on the design team's list, and it will take time to tweak those things too.

But to abandon unrestricted and no_barbs as options seems counter-productive to increasing our ffh community.

 

[Silverkiss]

I didn't say anything like that. But the game was meant to be played on the normal settings, and Kael already said that. Balance in other settings are not assured.

You want to play multiplayer ? For all means, play it. I love multiplayer too. But it's your choice to play Unrestricted Leaders, or No Barbarians, or any other setting.

 

[Basil II]

If there were some compelling reason to play no_barbs...but I don't see one.

 

[Ecofarm]

MP (especially via Gamespy)

There's no barbs there. Because people want a more fair game for MP.

I never see barbs on in Player vs. Player MP. They are too exploitable. Whoever gets the xp farm (lair or barb city near them) gets a ton of free xp and slays all. People play MP because the AI is dumb. Note: no offence to the team, the AI is improving and works well enough for very enjoyable SP games already. To include the AI (even in the form of barbs) and exploit him in MP seems counterproductive. MP is about playing against people, not code. Of course, there are MPers, especially on hamachi, who like to play team games against the AI, so we use raging/wildlands in those games.

 

[Silverkiss]

But you see, the problem lays right there. "Exploiting" the exp the barbs give is a part of the game. If you want to play custom rules, do it. But don't expect it to be balanced.

Why ?, you ask me ? The answer is simple. If you balance things for No Barbarians, or for Unrestricted Leaders, then the normal game will become unbalanced. And you know, it's called "normal" for a reason.

An example. If you balance the Grigori Archmages that you complain in the other thread for when you plain Grigori led by Dain, then they will become near-useless or at least underpowered when played by Cassiel himself.

 

[Bringa]

Yeah, I'm with ecofarm on this one. If you want a fair, balanced game, you have to remove as much randomness from the game as possible. Barbs are a random element, as are unique features etc.

edit: if you want to tamper with your game files, go to GlobalDefinesAlt in your Assets/XML dir and add this define:

	<Define>
		<DefineName>CASTER_XP_CHANCE</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>500</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

The default SHOULD be 100. Any higher and your adepts/priests/anything with channeling gain xp much faster.

 

[xienwolf]

Personally, I wanted to start playing MP with the community, but everyone I can find wants to play with all these stupid rules to make things "Fair," "Balanced," or "Less Random."


I say, that is hogwash. Unless you are personally designing the entire map (no random maps) to ensure that everyone has the same exact resources, in the same exact spots near them, there is STILL RANDOM IN THE GAME.

Besides, if you are always running the same strategy, you are losing out and you are no longer THINKING (Again, this is my opinion. It is expected to be a bit insulting, sorry). More than half of my enjoyment comes from trying to outwit someone, and if I can already do that because I am simply smarter, then you might need a leg up, which means getting something random to help you. Or, if you are more experienced then me, then I need that leg up to try and beat you this time, even though I lost the last 12.


Randomness is a part of life. Heck, to me, RANDOMNESS IS LIFE. Without something random, things get just plain boring.


So, go with the normal options for once, and figure out a new strategy to take someone down. Maybe this time instead of waiting till turn 120 to attack, because you know everyone will attack at 120, maybe instead... Destroy your own empire for 20 turns desperately building a stack of warriors so you can go pluck that city with a cheater resource from your neighbor. Or even worse, from the other side of the continent.


Again, sorry if I upset anyone, I don't mean to insult anyone personally. I just don't like the constraints everyone puts on multiplayer, especially when they change options so damn much (always a large point advanced start, never anything "Random").

 

[Bringa]

There's randomness and randomness. It's acceptable to have one gold resource less in your fat cross--losing earlygame due to heavy barbarian influx is not acceptable. It's about reducing randomness as much as possible. "Randomness is life" is a very pointless argument. Multiplayer games are about two or more people pitting their experience, their skills against each other. The more random interference in that, the less it becomes an actual battle of skills. As you point out, there is always some randomness, and part of the civ4 skillset is adopting to what is random, but if you play with raging barbs for instance you invite so much randomness that skill levels hardly matter anymore.

 

[xienwolf]

I don't mean "Randomness is life" as in "There will always be something random in real life," I mean "I do so VERY much Love making things as Random as possible!"

I just enjoy throwing the monkey wrench in the machine. Just the way I am. And I enjoy getting beat to pieces as much as I enjoy winning. If I know that I have beat someone a couple dozen times already, then in the current setup most people in the MP community use... I know I'll win again. But with the default settings, for all I know I'll start right next to Barbatos and have to spend 3 turns just running away, maybe that finally gives him the edge he needs to win?

And if I am on the other side, I'll continue to challenge someone who has constantly creamed me, in the hopes that maybe this time I can start with both Dragon Bones and Yggdrasil in my first city fat cross, and it might be enough to finall win a game.


And mind you, this comes from someone who grew up in arcade parlors spending $10 on a fighting game trying to beat someone, always using a random character, even though I don't actually know how to use any of them and just button jam, while he is an expert. And on other games I have handed over more than $15 because I am the expert and I love that they just keep on trying to win, no matter how easily I kill them off.

 

[DeaExMachina]

I agree with Xeinwolf on this 100%. I mean I tried to play once with Eco and someone else over Hamachi and was just utterly disgusted as they kept restarting the game because they couldn't do it exactly one specific way.

This is a game for fun, its a game where randomness is built into every piece of algorithm. The make everything so linear is so...well, not Civ. You might as well just play Chess if all you want is strategy and stompy stompy without the slightest bit of randomness.

And I"d like to say there is just as much skill in adapting to an ever changing game face then learning to perfect the Civil Service slingshot or other techniques.

 

[Silverkiss]

Yay for that, xienwolf, yay for that. That's all my thoughts as well.

 

[thealien_83]

So you think the MP community should be cast aside?

Dude. You and your little clique of friends do not constitute the "MP community" be-all end-all representation. I play Fall From Heaven multiplayer all the time, and I use none of the settings you advocate as a necessity

If you choose to approach the game in a spirit of pure competitiveness and thus feel you need it to be 110% (which it will never, ever, be no matter how much you try to tweak it thusly) fair to avoid whining later, then that's up to you. But I wouldn't expect the team to custom-tailor the whole mod just to fit that desire, nor would I personally want them to.

Half the charm for me is that the game isn't predictable. That may be just me, sure (or not, since Xienwolf and others apparently think the same).

And contrary to what Bringa says, I don't necessary think a multiplayer game by default is a contest. If I want games where the aim is purely to . .. .. .. . up the other player I'll load up Quake or some RTS instead. When I play multiplayer I don't consider the other player's civ by default an enemy any more than I do the other civ's around me. They can be, but they don't have to be. I enjoy the game exactly the way I would in singleplayer, only more because there are some civilizations out there that can provide more of a challenge, both passively or actively.

Again, just my two cents. But I call hogwash on the "alienating the MP community" claim.

Cheers.

 

[Ecofarm]

Go to gamespy lobby. Look at the 20+ games in progress and the 4+ games in staging room (any and every evening). Try to find one game with barbs on. You won't.

Ever played a ladder game with barbs? Of course not.

And for the record, I play SP and team games vs. AI, so spare me the demonization.

I realize that barbs are an interesting part of FFH. Much more so than BTS, and they are very fun in SP and some MP games. Does this mean that we can't do something to allow high priests to get into the game without barbs? Disiples and adepts are about equally capable of earning their xp from barbs, but only disiples are forced to. Why?

I don't see the reasoning behind archmages being easy to obtain without barbs, but high priests being impossible. Seriously, what's the point? Is there something that I am overlooking that makes high priests overpowered compared to archs? Perhaps there is.

If it is because priests should have to fight to get xp, according to game flavor, then fine. I'm just wondering why, and lamenting that in player vs. player (for 99% of the MPers I've met at gamespy, who do not use barbs) - there is no high-priest.

 

[Ecofarm]

I mean I tried to play once with Eco and someone else over Hamachi and was just utterly disgusted as they kept restarting the game because they couldn't do it exactly one specific way.

We were probably still in 0.25 and were rehosting because of cheater resources.

"Couldn't do it exactly one specific way"? Perhaps you could elaborate, because I don't restart for anything since .30.

I never restart in SP. I never reload. Never have and never will. We only rehosted in .25 because of cheater resources (which have been changed and optioned, you may note).

I don't appreciate your attack on my play through a misrepresentation of events. I have a strat for every resource, and all terrains. I don't need anything "one specific way".

This forum is not for personal discussion/hackery. Let's stick to the topic in the future, thanks.

 

[westamastaflash]

I never figured out why people turn off barbarians. An integral part of the SP game is making sure you protect your own lands from barbarians. Taking that portion of strategy out of MP is beyond me.

 

[DeaExMachina]

We were probably still in 0.25 and were rehosting because of cheater resources.

"Couldn't do it exactly one specific way"? Perhaps you could elaborate, because I don't restart for anything since .30.

"Oh we can no longer exploit the advanced start bug to cottage forests when not elves. Lets restart instead of adapting." "Oh looks like Ljo is broken too and can't start with corrage forests in advance start either. Lets restart the game." That was in .30 >_>

Also 1 in 4 of the games I play in the normal Gamespy lobby for standard BtS have Barbs in it. Almost never unrestricted leader (never liked that setting but I'll stay for it because its not as messed up in standard Civ). Though I will agree I've never played Barbs in a ladder game, hell I've never played a ladder game.

As for the answer to why its so hard because we lack any Trait like "Divine" where disciples gain more XP. I've always thought a trait like that should be implemented, just hopefully not for the Elohim.

 

[Celeborn]

Personally, I wanted to start playing MP with the community, but everyone I can find wants to play with all these stupid rules to make things "Fair," "Balanced," or "Less Random."


I say, that is hogwash. Unless you are personally designing the entire map (no random maps) to ensure that everyone has the same exact resources, in the same exact spots near them, there is STILL RANDOM IN THE GAME.

Besides, if you are always running the same strategy, you are losing out and you are no longer THINKING (Again, this is my opinion. It is expected to be a bit insulting, sorry). More than half of my enjoyment comes from trying to outwit someone, and if I can already do that because I am simply smarter, then you might need a leg up, which means getting something random to help you. Or, if you are more experienced then me, then I need that leg up to try and beat you this time, even though I lost the last 12.


Randomness is a part of life. Heck, to me, RANDOMNESS IS LIFE. Without something random, things get just plain boring.


So, go with the normal options for once, and figure out a new strategy to take someone down. Maybe this time instead of waiting till turn 120 to attack, because you know everyone will attack at 120, maybe instead... Destroy your own empire for 20 turns desperately building a stack of warriors so you can go pluck that city with a cheater resource from your neighbor. Or even worse, from the other side of the continent.


Again, sorry if I upset anyone, I don't mean to insult anyone personally. I just don't like the constraints everyone puts on multiplayer, especially when they change options so damn much (always a large point advanced start, never anything "Random").

Your ideas intrigue me and I'd like to subscribe to your news-letter.

 

[Sureshot]

Altar Exalted:
+12xp
Theocracy:
+2xp
Conquest:
+2xp
Apprenticeship:
+2xp
Command Post:
+2xp
=20xp

Pick an Adaptive leader (ideally Cardith to start with Phi), get a ton of sage (great library) and priest specialists (national epic to pimp it out), to help you get altar and research towards Your Religion+Righteousness+Theology.

Switch to Charimatic at turn 70 (on Quick).

You can now create Priests with 20xp to start, enough to level 6, so they can immediately become High Priests. If you're Sidar its shade central.

I tested this with Cardith/Sidar, OCC, Advanced start default points, unrestricted leaders, and achieved all necessities by turn 120 on quick in 1 attempt.

Edit added:
Id also like to note i went AV, had to wait til i built all the altars to switch, but this allows me to make savants which allows me to make 1 turn archmages, inquisitors and high priests, since savants can upgrade to mages and priests. With shading that means unlimited invisible archmages, highpriests, and inquisitors at a rate of 1 per turn, tho its hard to resist adding a specialist to the city every turn.

Heres a shot of the city at turn 200, i turned all my level 6 units into sage specialists heh, only stopped making them to make the crown wonder: