Hinterlands

[xienwolf]

Well, not sure what you would do to Cardith Lorda in this case, but a possible approach is in his base mechanic.

Limit ALL civilizations to a certain number of cities until they reach a required tech (or age/tier whatever). Probably also limit how many settlements they can make, or just don't allow settlements at all except for Cardith once he is able to exceed his otherwise normal limit of cities. (of course at top tier you would want to have no limit on number of cities for normal civilizations, and probably an exponential growth rate if you limited by tier. If limited by tech spread the increased limits all over the tree so that almost every 2nd tech allows another city, thus keeping it from forcing a certain development route, like the engineering path, for civs who normally don't touch it).

 

[mdfairch]

I don't like that idea at all. The point is that we want to prevent the map from getting filled up, leaving more wilderness, not to fill the map with almost worthless cities. This wouldn't really solev the problem...

But it would never have more than a handful of these worthless cities, because any civ that went around building them would end up so bankrupt and stagnant that they'd be overrun -- and since those cities have only one point of population, they'd almost invariably be razed.

Also, I think this would really hurt the AI. Actually making them unable to build cities here early in the game would improve the AI, since it couldn't make so many dumb choices as to where to place its first cities.

Realistically speaking, the idea of making a lot of terrain useless would absolutely require that the AI be tweaked to avoid building on worthless sites.

 

[Calavente]

Limit ALL civilizations to a certain number of cities until they reach a required tech (or age/tier whatever). Probably also limit how many settlements they can make, or just don't allow settlements at all except for Cardith once he is able to exceed his otherwise normal limit of cities. (of course at top tier you would want to have no limit on number of cities for normal civilizations, and probably an exponential growth rate if you limited by tier. If limited by tech spread the increased limits all over the tree so that almost every 2nd tech allows another city, thus keeping it from forcing a certain development route, like the engineering path, for civs who normally don't touch it).

there is something here.
add to it (as for cardith lora) cannot conquere any city that cannot be owned and it would be tremendous.

maybe make every odd-tech giving a new city or 3-5-10 depending on the size speed and of the lateness of the tech.
or do it by : tech >1000 allows +1 city
tech > 3000 allows +2 cities
tech > 8000 allows +5 cities

 

[mdfairch]

there is something here.
add to it (as for cardith lora) cannot conquere any city that cannot be owned and it would be tremendous.

maybe make every odd-tech giving a new city or 3-5-10 depending on the size speed and of the lateness of the tech.
or do it by : tech >1000 allows +1 city
tech > 3000 allows +2 cities
tech > 8000 allows +5 cities

I don't know about doing using just arbitrary levels of technology -- specific technologies would make more sense.
<P><P>
Thinking about the real-world, let's look at what allowed larger and larger kingdoms and empires to form. Specific technologies spawned great civilizations.

• The rise of engineering allowed the Romans to build the roads and aqueducts that helped make them such a mighty power. Roads in particular -- it's much easier to manage and defend territory if you can get to it.
• The formation of the first modern beauracracies weakened Europe's aristocracies and allowed the rise of true Nation states like France and Russia.
• Long-range trade ships spawned the Spanish, Portugese, French, and British empires, which spawned the entire globe.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, going from the top of the tree to the bottom, and trying to use each branch, taking anything allowing larger cities or empires:

Agriculture --> Trade
Festivals
Crafting --> Hospitals
Sailing --> Astronomy
Exploration & Cartography
Education --> Mercntilism
Feudalism
Writing
Engineering
Machinery
Philosophy
Religious Law


Stretching for magical world:
Sorcery, Summoning, Omniscience, Pass through the Ether



This misses:
The metal line
recon line
Most of Religion
Most of Magic



So 70% of the tech qualify. Make it +1 to limit each and a human player barely notices unless the are beelining militarily.

 

[mdfairch]

It occurs to me -- a very simple solution would be to limit the kinds of terrain over which settlers can move. If your settlers can't travel onto ice, tundra, or jungle until you've discover particular technologies, expansion options will be limited early on. Obviously the settlers of certain civs would automatically be able to move through some of those terrains.

I think that would provide a very natural way to control some aspects of sprawl. I've noticed that maps composed of lots of Islands take a long time to colonize, precisely because settlers can't travel over water without sailing (for nearby islands) and optics (for distant islands).

 

[Grey Fox]

Also, maybe make the settler into a national unit with a build limit of 1.

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

Also, maybe make the settler into a national unit with a build limit of 1.

I like this idea (might do it in my game) but maybe a few should be allowed not just one. Maybe the number allowed could be based off of the level of technology or maybe how far you have explored?

 

[Halancar]

Well, not sure what you would do to Cardith Lorda in this case, but a possible approach is in his base mechanic.

Limit ALL civilizations to a certain number of cities until they reach a required tech (or age/tier whatever). Probably also limit how many settlements they can make, or just don't allow settlements at all except for Cardith once he is able to exceed his otherwise normal limit of cities. (of course at top tier you would want to have no limit on number of cities for normal civilizations, and probably an exponential growth rate if you limited by tier. If limited by tech spread the increased limits all over the tree so that almost every 2nd tech allows another city, thus keeping it from forcing a certain development route, like the engineering path, for civs who normally don't touch it).

I find that playing at the higher difficulty level (Emperor is my normal choice), you are already fairly limited in the number of city you can have before your Empire starts to bankrupt itself. Add a map with a lot of land, or fewer civs, and you can have some wilderness around for a long time. Of course, the AIs may not be quite as limited...

 

[jimi12]

mdfairch has a good idea. just make it so settlers cannot build on say ice. then just make a map with a large portion of it has ice. instant wildlands.

 

[mdfairch]

Settlers could even have a limited lifespan, representing the amount of time before they run out of supplies for their trip into the wilderness. This would make it necessary for new cities to be built relatively close to existing cities capable of producing settlers. Getting a settler any significant distance from the areas in which you've built roads would be nearly impossible.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Here was an idea of mine from a team thread on this subject (it's something Kael has been wanting all along)

How about culture? Restricting the ability to own a tile containing a terrain/improvement/feature type until either a tech is researched or that terrain/improvement/feature was changed?

We could make some 'normal' terrain into sort-of wilderness areas. For example, a [non-barbarian-state] player couldn't enter with units or control via culture:
forrests, untiil exploration was discovered (except elves)
hills, until crafting was discovered (expect dwarves)
deserts, until cartography was discovered (except Malakim)
jungles, until hunting was discovered (except orcs)
tundra, until ?warfare was discovered (except Doviello/Illians)
Ice, until ??? was discovered (except illians)

and the following terrain could be added:
New Forest (added in map generation and no requirements to enter)
Trackless Desert (only spawns adjacent to 2 or more desert tiles, functions as desert except requires a later tech to enter, maybe stirrup?, and has a chance of starting with and/or gaining unique lairs)
Deep Jungle (like trackless desert, maybe requires sanitation to even enter, won't ever catch on fire)
Broken Hills (like trackless desert, maybe requires engineering to even enter)

the effect may be to limit the early expansion, increasing both competition for availible lands and areas for creatures to spawn. Or it might be annoying, but worth a test, I think.

By the way, I didn't mean to imply that this is what we'll do, just one idea I had in the discussion that was similar to what you were talking about

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Not bad. Why didn't you mention it earlier? You had to wait until we come up with the ideas independantly?

I'm not sure that all units should be excluded from the terrains until the prerequisite techs. Maybe only Recon units should be able to move there without the prereq techs? Or maybe there could be different prereqs for different unitcombats (or, if you want to get really complicated, different unitclasses), so, for example, recon units could get there before melee/archers/disciples, which could get there before mounted units (or at least chariots), which get there before those in no unit combat (settlers, workers), which get there befre siege units.

Also, it seems like units should be able to move into tiles at an earlier tech than they could settle it. This sounds more realistic, and it would encourage more exploration and finding better city locations.

It might be nice if some of the terrains/features/improvements (like deep jungle, trackless deserts (needs a better name I think), ice, hell terrains, etc.) had morale requirements (assuming the morale mechainic gets added, as I think it should be). Maybe all the "temporarily impassible" terrains would actually just have very high morale requirments (lowered with higher techs), and units on the tiles would gradually become demoralized.

Some promotions could also add morale boni on certain terrains/features/boni/impovements, e.g., Nomad on deserts, Elven in forests, Orkish in jungles and flames (it would be much cooler if units didn't need fire resistance to enter flame tiles, but suffered damage otherwise and needed really high morale to do so. More morale would be needed for the units that are less resistant/more vulnerable.), Dwarven on hills, Guardsman in Forts/Castles/Citadles, Demon/Undead/Stigmata/Nightmare/Entropy promotions in hell, etc.

Alternatively (or additionally) certain civs could have morale boni on certain types of lands, e.g., Illians on Ice and tundra, Doviallo on Tundra, Ljosaflar/Svartalfar in forests, Malakim in deserts, Khazad on hills/broken hills/peaks, Lanun in costs/oceans (I think that the morale requirments might be a good replacement for the tech requirement for ocean movement, or maybe it could work that way until Atronomy or something), Amurites on mana nodes, Infernal/Sheaim/Bannor in hell, Elohim on unique features, etc. (Could the morale bonus also apply within a tile or two of a feature? I'm thinking that would be good for the mana/unique feture morale boni for the Amurites/Elohim, but morale mali near enemy Forts/Castles/Citadels could be nice too)

A unit's religion could also effect its terrain/improvement/feature based morale. (Rok better on hills, Fol in forests, OO in water/coastal land/rivers, AV in hell, anything else that seems appropriate)

 

[slithy]

A simple way to limit cities would be to disallow building settlers until allowed by a particular tech (maybe Engineering? should be relatively late in the tree), but then have certain techs pop you a settler for free: Construction; Code of Laws; Trade; Sanitation; Currency; and Medicine.

That way you have 2 paths for expansion - the military one where you look for barb cities (or take over your neighbor), or the peaceful one where you race for the techs that will give you settlers. Neither will be particularly fast, however, meaning there should remain wildlands/barbarian lands for a very long time.

 

[Ariminio]

I just played a game with no settlers on large and only 8 civs. There's a lot of animal land then,but there were only bears and bear dens everywhere. Like 15 on one screen and no other animals at all. Was pretty boring.

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

I like what nikis quoted but maybe the unit should only be able to go and see one tile "deep" into the terrain without the tech instead of being completely restricted from the terrain.

 

[mdfairch]

I just played a game with no settlers on large and only 8 civs. There's a lot of animal land then,but there were only bears and bear dens everywhere. Like 15 on one screen and no other animals at all. Was pretty boring.

There's definitely something not quite right about the way that animals are spawned.

Has anyone ever actually been able to build the Grand Menagerie? I'm lucky if I can find even two of the necessary animals.

 

[max_gradient]

There's definitely something not quite right about the way that animals are spawned.

Has anyone ever actually been able to build the Grand Menagerie? I'm lucky if I can find even two of the necessary animals.

I have also not been able to find all the animals for the wonder, usually it's more like 2 types and thats it.

 

[max_gradient]

I'm currently playing a D&D Ravenlof campaign with a couple of friends. When certain grand events in the game occured, the shadowrift ascended and spawned daemons all over the place.

So maybe those hinterlands could be linked to the AC, and maybe it could be a continent full of animals/barbs that emerges from below the sea?

 

[mdfairch]

I'm currently playing a D&D Ravenlof campaign with a couple of friends. When certain grand events in the game occured, the shadowrift ascended and spawned daemons all over the place.

So maybe those hinterlands could be linked to the AC, and maybe it could be a continent full of animals/barbs that emerges from below the sea?

Ravenloft, nice. Are you playing under 3.5 rules? I didn't know Ravenloft had been adapted to the newer rulesets.