LuvToBuild
Prince
pigswill said:
HN02-A The Pacifist Power of Religion
- Thread starter LuvToBuild
- Start date
pigswill
fly (one day)
Cosmichael; glad you didn't get Islam, we're not going for monotheistic religions but at least we got a trade from it.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Forgot about that it's just those cool ones we're getting.
We are going to need a lot of ICBMs for this one.
We are going to need a lot of ICBMs for this one.
LuvToBuild
Prince
Well guys. I sat down to play tonight and I'm getting pretty discouraged all over again. Is there any realistic way we can win this game? If not, then let's just scrap it and see about starting something similar or moving onto something else. I feel this way because I noticed Cyrus already has riflemen in that little city down south. He could just about take us with those if he wanted to. We are so weak it isn't even funny. We didn't pick up Feudalism so we still don't have longbows for defense. By the time we get done screwing around in the middle ages, he'll be well on his way to the modern age. Whether he builds the UN or not is a moot point. By the time we can, he'll have done blasted off to the stars. What say the rest of ye gentlemen?
pigswill
fly (one day)
Given that we're going for a diplomatic type victory and we're demonstrating the pacifist power of religion our lack of modern military units is not so important. If we get invaded in a major kind of way then things go downhill very quickly. that would be the time to concede defeat.
It's still goingto come down to population, commerce and alliances. Those are the areas to continue focussing on.
It's still goingto come down to population, commerce and alliances. Those are the areas to continue focussing on.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
The isolation in the beginning is a civ killer. It killed the Jihad game. Cyrus though isn't one to attack too easily even when cautious. I hope I didn't blow it by not going for Feudalism but was playing in the spirit of the game. We are weak like lambs. We could try with specialists but are there any food rich cities to utilize? I don't mind continuing and trying but I do see the dilemma. I'd be for a new start, new theme, whatever turns your fancy guys. I would like a more "something to do" kind of game then hit enter a lot. Usually that's the first sign something isn't right when you hit enter too much.
If there was a food rich city, caste system and lots of scientists, merchants, artists and focus on science. We don't have much else choice and just need a unique tech to move ahead. We are running at 70% which isn't bad. Military isn't an option and we could go to Pacifism now for better GPP points.
If there was a food rich city, caste system and lots of scientists, merchants, artists and focus on science. We don't have much else choice and just need a unique tech to move ahead. We are running at 70% which isn't bad. Military isn't an option and we could go to Pacifism now for better GPP points.
LuvToBuild
Prince
I don't want to throw in the towel too early if you guys see an actual opportunity to win. I just don't see it myself. If you consider the fact that Cyrus already has riflemen, that means he is at least in the early renaissance period while we are stuck in the early to mid medieval period. So he's probably at least an age ahead of us if not two. That's a pretty big spread to try and overcome. Our initial isolation coupled with early overexpansion has put us ridicously far behind. The only real chance I see us having, and it's a really slim chance, is that we could get a high enough pop along with our decent land size to make the second candidate position for secretary general. I just don't see any way that we can reasonably expect to be the first to Mass Media and build the UN before anyone else. It's just not gonna happen. Assuming we can somehow get the second spot, Cyrus will still win the position because he'll probably garner more votes. He's had established relationships with the other AI's for a much longer period of time. Sure, there are things we can try to do to upset the love fest but they just aren't really what I had in mine for this game. Personally, I'd rather just throw this one in the loss column and move on to either a new roll with similar variants or something new altogether. I'm considering a standard pangea map with 18 civs, Prince difficulty. Barbs might as well be off because they would pretty much be a non-factor. Permanent alliances enabled to emphasize diplomacy. Plenty of warring since we'll for sure have at least Monty and Alex, plus a few other psychos. Perhaps change the variants so that we only build defensive units and cannot take new territory beyond our original cities. All religions allowed. No theocracy.
Anyway, if the majority want to pursue this one further and see what develops, I'll go head and play my turns. I hate to sound like a quitter and a pessimist but this one just doesn't seem winnable to me. I hate to invest our precious playing time into a game that just isn't going anywhere.
Anyway, if the majority want to pursue this one further and see what develops, I'll go head and play my turns. I hate to sound like a quitter and a pessimist but this one just doesn't seem winnable to me. I hate to invest our precious playing time into a game that just isn't going anywhere.
FoolontheHill
Head Stooge
I think pigswill has a valid point (and a great joke about the ICBMs ).
Diplomatic is all about population and working the AI. I haven't looked at where we are in pop in a while, but if we are or can reach #2, then we have a chance. Aelf proved to me that very few positions are unwinnable in the emperor's master challenge thread where he looked like toast for most of the game and ended up winning through diplomacy.
I don't mind going for a while longer.
).Diplomatic is all about population and working the AI. I haven't looked at where we are in pop in a while, but if we are or can reach #2, then we have a chance. Aelf proved to me that very few positions are unwinnable in the emperor's master challenge thread where he looked like toast for most of the game and ended up winning through diplomacy.
I don't mind going for a while longer.
pigswill
fly (one day)
What about playing a turnset each and see where we are when LuvToBuild is up next? I must admit that I'm not actually that confident but then I think of Aelf's victory and I think of the Accountants Wars SG where things also looked hopeless.
LuvToBuild
Prince
pigswill said:
Actually, I am up next but was waiting to see if there was any interest in continuing. Since most of you seem to want to try and pull this out of the hat, I'll go ahead and play. I'm not convinced we have a shot but at least it's not Alex or Monty sitting on our southern border with two riflemen. Maybe by some miracle the others will focus on a space race and we will be able to find ways to bring them into our corner while trying to beeline to Mass Media. I suggest we try to focus our techs in that direction and try to avoid spending our time on techs which do us little good. I had thought going for techs that JC wouldn't research would help us but that might not get us to techs we truly need so we'll have to balance. Try to get techs we need which (hopefully) JC will want.
LuvToBuild
Prince
Pre-Turn
I took a look around and did some tweaking here and there.
Turn 1
Finished a crossbow in Zhou. I considered building some more but felt like we needed to keep Zhou growing so I put in an aqueduct instead. It had reached it's health limit so it could use the extra health. I also got some workers moved to south of Bombay. I feel like we need to get watermills on those tundra tiles instead of cottages.
Turn 2
Started a market in Bombay and a Harbor in Madras.
Turn 3
JC wanted to trade world maps. I agreed and tried to get some maps from others but either we didn't have anything of value to get a map or the other leader didn't like us enough. Washington and Mansa apparently consider us their worst enemy. We'll have to watch for them on our coastline.
Turn 4
Completed a caravel in Delhi and sent him against the barb galley. Odds were 87.9% so I was a little nervous but decided to go ahead. We won but those barbs left the caravel at .4 strength. A somewhat nasty battle. On of our ICBMs landed in St. Petersburg. Cathy has Buddhism now. Maybe a few more will get her to the Light Side.
Turn 5
Hatty wanted us to cancel deals with Cathy. Sounds like a catfight waiting to happen.
Turn 6
Turn 7
Finished a caravel in Delhi and the aqueduct in Zhou. I considered putting the HE there but figured we should discuss it first. I'm not sure if it's best there or in Madras. I started a crossbow in Zhou and another ICBM in Delhi. We could probably use a few more in JC land to make sure we keep him solidly on our side. For now I'd say send them to the new land though.
Turn 8
Completed a harbor in Madras and started on a Buddhist monastery. It's not a high science city but it is a good production city and we need to spam a lot of ICBM's. We are in OR right now but getting monasteries gets us out of OR and may let us bump up science.
Turn 9
Turn 10
Granary completed in Karachi and an ICBM completed in Delhi. I loaded the ICBM on a healthy caravel and sent him around the northern tip to Russia. I realized that we probably need to stage caravels on the western coast at Madras. Makes for a shorter distance to Cathy and the sooner we can try to convert her, the better off we will be. Unfortunately, if she declares on Hatty, we aren't supposed to join in since it would be an act of aggression. This would make it tough to get a mutual military struggle with her.
A decent navy of caravels and plenty of ICBMs seems to be the best strategy right now in terms of a "conquest". We can try to get Cathy and Cyrus along with keeping JC. Washington, Mansa, and Hatty would be tougher since they have their own religions. If Hatty and Cathy start catfighting, we should stay out of it unless Hatty is the aggressor. In that scenario, let's just go ahead and declare on Hatty. It's legal and gets us a mutual struggle with Cathy. We just need to watch our coastline. The nice thing about caravels will be that with some cash we can get frigates. A nice navy will probably end up being our best bet. First to get Buddhist converts, second to protect our coast. Later, we might try limited strikes against the other mainland, using AC's and fighters. Since we're not looking for conquest and I see no real need to try and take cities on the other mainland, this might be a way to make a dent in our opposition.
Here's the updated roster:
Current Roster:
LuvToBuild
pigswill -> UP
Krockel -> autoskip
FoolontheHill on deck
omurtag
Cosmichail
I took a look around and did some tweaking here and there.
Turn 1
Finished a crossbow in Zhou. I considered building some more but felt like we needed to keep Zhou growing so I put in an aqueduct instead. It had reached it's health limit so it could use the extra health. I also got some workers moved to south of Bombay. I feel like we need to get watermills on those tundra tiles instead of cottages.
Turn 2
Started a market in Bombay and a Harbor in Madras.
Turn 3
JC wanted to trade world maps. I agreed and tried to get some maps from others but either we didn't have anything of value to get a map or the other leader didn't like us enough. Washington and Mansa apparently consider us their worst enemy. We'll have to watch for them on our coastline.
Turn 4
Completed a caravel in Delhi and sent him against the barb galley. Odds were 87.9% so I was a little nervous but decided to go ahead. We won but those barbs left the caravel at .4 strength. A somewhat nasty battle. On of our ICBMs landed in St. Petersburg. Cathy has Buddhism now. Maybe a few more will get her to the Light Side.
Turn 5
Hatty wanted us to cancel deals with Cathy. Sounds like a catfight waiting to happen.
Turn 6
Turn 7
Finished a caravel in Delhi and the aqueduct in Zhou. I considered putting the HE there but figured we should discuss it first. I'm not sure if it's best there or in Madras. I started a crossbow in Zhou and another ICBM in Delhi. We could probably use a few more in JC land to make sure we keep him solidly on our side. For now I'd say send them to the new land though.
Turn 8
Completed a harbor in Madras and started on a Buddhist monastery. It's not a high science city but it is a good production city and we need to spam a lot of ICBM's. We are in OR right now but getting monasteries gets us out of OR and may let us bump up science.
Turn 9
Turn 10
Granary completed in Karachi and an ICBM completed in Delhi. I loaded the ICBM on a healthy caravel and sent him around the northern tip to Russia. I realized that we probably need to stage caravels on the western coast at Madras. Makes for a shorter distance to Cathy and the sooner we can try to convert her, the better off we will be. Unfortunately, if she declares on Hatty, we aren't supposed to join in since it would be an act of aggression. This would make it tough to get a mutual military struggle with her.
A decent navy of caravels and plenty of ICBMs seems to be the best strategy right now in terms of a "conquest". We can try to get Cathy and Cyrus along with keeping JC. Washington, Mansa, and Hatty would be tougher since they have their own religions. If Hatty and Cathy start catfighting, we should stay out of it unless Hatty is the aggressor. In that scenario, let's just go ahead and declare on Hatty. It's legal and gets us a mutual struggle with Cathy. We just need to watch our coastline. The nice thing about caravels will be that with some cash we can get frigates. A nice navy will probably end up being our best bet. First to get Buddhist converts, second to protect our coast. Later, we might try limited strikes against the other mainland, using AC's and fighters. Since we're not looking for conquest and I see no real need to try and take cities on the other mainland, this might be a way to make a dent in our opposition.
Here's the updated roster:
Current Roster:
LuvToBuild
pigswill -> UP
Krockel -> autoskip
FoolontheHill on deck
omurtag
Cosmichail
pigswill
fly (one day)
Haven't forgotten. Been busy with other stuff. I'll get it tonight or tomorrow.
LuvToBuild
Prince
That's fine. It might not hurt if we all discussed how we're going to pull this one out anyway. We probably need to be on the same page in terms of our goal and how we are going to get there.
What should our tech choices be and why? How do they help us get to Mass Media and a diplomatic victory. Will we be able to trade them to JC for a tech we could use but don't necessarily need or doesn't get us to Mass Media, i.e. military tech.
What kind of military do we need? What is it's purpose? Purely defensive or capable of supporting our allies during a time of war? Do we need sufficient ground forces to take and hold distant cities? Do we need ground forces to help our allies take and hold distant cities? What kind of ground forces? Marines? Infantry? What kind of navy should we be building? Should our navy and air force be the primary offensive focus?
Some of these questions may seem premature but if we assume that we will last long enough to actually win, then that win isn't going to take place until the modern era. So, what do we need to be doing now to put ourselves in a good position to possibly dominate the modern era?
What should our tech choices be and why? How do they help us get to Mass Media and a diplomatic victory. Will we be able to trade them to JC for a tech we could use but don't necessarily need or doesn't get us to Mass Media, i.e. military tech.
What kind of military do we need? What is it's purpose? Purely defensive or capable of supporting our allies during a time of war? Do we need sufficient ground forces to take and hold distant cities? Do we need ground forces to help our allies take and hold distant cities? What kind of ground forces? Marines? Infantry? What kind of navy should we be building? Should our navy and air force be the primary offensive focus?
Some of these questions may seem premature but if we assume that we will last long enough to actually win, then that win isn't going to take place until the modern era. So, what do we need to be doing now to put ourselves in a good position to possibly dominate the modern era?
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Must be some weird curse. Jihadst both times start out isolated and next to JC. You guys start out twice and second time isolated and next to JC. What's the odd of that????? (Is your machine copying my machine's bad habits)
I have difficulty to say which way to win this since we are lacking in food rich cities for GPing lots of great people which can help with tech parity. Not strong in production either for an army but looking at what we have now we should at least have an army capable of defending against GW. Secondly we should aim for a tech nobody has and trade as much as possible. One tech can sometimes get you caught up.
I have difficulty to say which way to win this since we are lacking in food rich cities for GPing lots of great people which can help with tech parity. Not strong in production either for an army but looking at what we have now we should at least have an army capable of defending against GW. Secondly we should aim for a tech nobody has and trade as much as possible. One tech can sometimes get you caught up.
LuvToBuild
Prince
pigswill said:
You still have it pigswill or do you need a skip this round? No big hurry since this one has been an easy going pace but I've been interested in seeing if we can pull this one out.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Oops totally forgot that I'd played the round. (mind you it was not a round to remember).
1583. Isabella asks us to fight Cat - I decline.
1586. Delhi builds BM, starts barracks.
1589. Madras build B Monastery, starts aqueduct.
1592. Mansa Musa offers OB - I decline.
Calcutta builds forge, starts aqueduct.
1595. Finish education. Trade with Jules: education for feudalism, map, 20gold, nothing new on the map. Start researching printing press.
1598. Delhi builds barracks,starts university.
Bangalore builds aqueduct, starts university.
1601. Madras builds aqueduct, starts Heroic Epic.
Cat asks us to fight Isabella. I agree (either phony or defensive war), obviously lose OB with Isabella. Get OB with Mansa.
1604. BM arrives in Mali.
1607. Lahore completes BM, starts library.
1610. BM in Mali killed by egyptian cat! BM heading towards cyrus ice city.
An uninspiring set altogether. We're severely limited by health/happy caps with nothing to trade until hit singles/movies/shows. We should really change forests to cottages but then may encounter health problems.Not a straightforward march to victory by any means. Not sure if I did the right thing declaring on Isabella, Cat is our friend (and we need all the diplo we can get) but is this being true to our variant?
1583. Isabella asks us to fight Cat - I decline.
1586. Delhi builds BM, starts barracks.
1589. Madras build B Monastery, starts aqueduct.
1592. Mansa Musa offers OB - I decline.
Calcutta builds forge, starts aqueduct.
1595. Finish education. Trade with Jules: education for feudalism, map, 20gold, nothing new on the map. Start researching printing press.
1598. Delhi builds barracks,starts university.
Bangalore builds aqueduct, starts university.
1601. Madras builds aqueduct, starts Heroic Epic.
Cat asks us to fight Isabella. I agree (either phony or defensive war), obviously lose OB with Isabella. Get OB with Mansa.
1604. BM arrives in Mali.
1607. Lahore completes BM, starts library.
1610. BM in Mali killed by egyptian cat! BM heading towards cyrus ice city.
An uninspiring set altogether. We're severely limited by health/happy caps with nothing to trade until hit singles/movies/shows. We should really change forests to cottages but then may encounter health problems.Not a straightforward march to victory by any means. Not sure if I did the right thing declaring on Isabella, Cat is our friend (and we need all the diplo we can get) but is this being true to our variant?
FoolontheHill
Head Stooge
From the variant rules:
"6. Defending friends against aggression is not required but is encouraged."
So, if she was attacked by Isabella then declaring was within the rules. Let's assume that she was....
.
I see it. May be able to get to it tonight.
"6. Defending friends against aggression is not required but is encouraged."
So, if she was attacked by Isabella then declaring was within the rules. Let's assume that she was....
.I see it. May be able to get to it tonight.
Are we at war with Egypt too?pigswill said:
FoolontheHill
Head Stooge
Very mellow set of turns....
Nothing much happened....
Hatty showed up on my next to last turn with one caravel. We have one or two caravels on that side of our island so we can try to kill it, or just let it be. Can't do much but kill some of our galleys (which are outdated now anyway).
The highlights were the national epic finishing in Madras. We also spread buddhism to Persepolis. Catherine is in Theocracy now so we can't spread any more to her for the time being. Two ICBMs are on caravels headed for Mansa to spread the faith there.
We do have another GP. A scientist that is asleep in Calcutta. Got him on turn 9 so I put him to sleep until we could discuss what to do with him. He will give us printing press, but we are only a turn away from that. After printing press, I think he will give us part of astronomy. That could be usefull as we could go three missionaries at a time that way. I think Caesar is the only one without printing press, so trade it to him for whatever we can get as soon as possible.
Couple of long term bright spots. We are second in food and second in manufacturing capacity. That could help us in the diplomacy race if we can deal with our health issue so we can grow.
Save is attached.
Nothing much happened....
Hatty showed up on my next to last turn with one caravel. We have one or two caravels on that side of our island so we can try to kill it, or just let it be. Can't do much but kill some of our galleys (which are outdated now anyway).
The highlights were the national epic finishing in Madras. We also spread buddhism to Persepolis. Catherine is in Theocracy now so we can't spread any more to her for the time being. Two ICBMs are on caravels headed for Mansa to spread the faith there.
We do have another GP. A scientist that is asleep in Calcutta. Got him on turn 9 so I put him to sleep until we could discuss what to do with him. He will give us printing press, but we are only a turn away from that. After printing press, I think he will give us part of astronomy. That could be usefull as we could go three missionaries at a time that way. I think Caesar is the only one without printing press, so trade it to him for whatever we can get as soon as possible.
Couple of long term bright spots. We are second in food and second in manufacturing capacity. That could help us in the diplomacy race if we can deal with our health issue so we can grow.
Save is attached.
LuvToBuild
Prince
We could use Astronomy for the trade routes. Having galleons would be good too if we can build BMs in more than one city and load the boat in one turn. Otherwise, several caravels constantly crossing the sea is probably just as good. I suggest if we can't get more BMs into Russia, we should try and get them into Persia if possible. Cyrus might be a good one to try and convert, although we probably do need to be careful that Cathy doesn't vote for him instead of us. Mansa isn't likely to convert and be an ally since he founded Hinduism.
Here's the updated roster:
Current Roster:
LuvToBuild
pigswill
Krockel -> autoskip
FoolontheHill
omurtag UP
Cosmichail on deck
Here's the updated roster:
Current Roster:
LuvToBuild
pigswill
Krockel -> autoskip
FoolontheHill
omurtag UP
Cosmichail on deck
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