Not entirely, I really like your suggestions, just missing a +1 move at the beginning
[Extension] Hokath's Proposals
- Thread starter hokath
- Start date
Amadhe
Emperor of Nothing
The Super Scout Mafia is here now Hokath.
Your weekly dose of changes are here.
The Thrift saga continues. Not wanting to admit defeat to @redrum68 I have nevertheless come to the conclusion the bonus to Specialists is too problematic with its long-term scaling, and therefore also pushing up against Mastery (Abstinence).
New plan: +1
from Bonus Resources
What can I say? Inspired.
I've also removed the caps (set to 999).
TTGOG scaler reduced from 10 to 5, dunno what I was thinking there, it was better than Ceremonial Burial... whoops.
Atoll movement cost increased to 4. Some boats were still too mobile through them for my liking. I'll also take this opportunity to shout out the Static Storms feature-version of Maritime Weather, see here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/maritime-weather.695562/post-16775290
God-King Pantheon is a bit too strong compared to Ancestor Worship so I've removed the +1 Faith / 5 Citizens part of the scaler.
Recon "Adventurer" promotion fixed to remove movement *from* things like Hills, rather than *in* things like Hills, making use of the new columns.
I've been playing a lot of Ethiopia and they are actually very fun. Shocking.
If you are using 4UC then I've moved the Monolithic Church back to Mining and tweaked some of the yield increases.
I did this because the mechanic is so cute but, sadly, you never see half+ of the increases since they come before you can even build the thing, silly!
There also weren't any major implications of the different eras giving different bonuses, really.
What I've done is make it quite a niche (religion-centric) build before it would have unlocked -> approx equal yields (-1 prod) -> more variance with policies
For example you could try 2 ancient trees or 2 medieval trees. Ofc AI doesn't do this, but it's alternative yields not nerfed yields, so your appreciation may vary.
Finally we have a new new building. The Archive.
This has the 2 Writing slots, moved from the Amphitheater. It also has some small yields, the +2 Gold on Oasis from the Garden, and it Strengthens the Historic Event Tourism from the Palace (which is nerfed).
There's a couple of motivating reasons to do this, and I credit Pdan and others on the Discord although this won't exactly align with what they're theorycrafting (because the DLL for that doesn't exist)
1) require more investment from players, and especially warmongers, to get big Tourism from passive events like Era change etc.
I note this is only going to be partially successful because a) this comes v early so later, when Tourism output is more important, its easy to build.
It would be cool to spread it over more buildings but the effect is already set to the minimum value of 1.
2) symmetrize Writing with Art and Music, having a +% Specialist building and a 2 Slot Theming building
3) allow Faith of the Masses to be split into two Beliefs, as purchase of (especially) Museum and Broadcast Tower is very powerful (but it's cool to have the options somewhere)
It's quite fiddly to make all the parts move to make room for it, but the changelog looks like this
To make way for this icon in the atlas I've ditched the State Treasure (Treasure Hoard) icon. There is a new one coming thanks to @Putmalk, who has been absolutely printing out top-quality icons recently, and we hope to include many in the base VP
The Thrift saga continues. Not wanting to admit defeat to @redrum68 I have nevertheless come to the conclusion the bonus to Specialists is too problematic with its long-term scaling, and therefore also pushing up against Mastery (Abstinence).
New plan: +1
from Bonus ResourcesWhat can I say? Inspired.
I've also removed the caps (set to 999).
TTGOG scaler reduced from 10 to 5, dunno what I was thinking there, it was better than Ceremonial Burial... whoops.
Atoll movement cost increased to 4. Some boats were still too mobile through them for my liking. I'll also take this opportunity to shout out the Static Storms feature-version of Maritime Weather, see here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/maritime-weather.695562/post-16775290
God-King Pantheon is a bit too strong compared to Ancestor Worship so I've removed the +1 Faith / 5 Citizens part of the scaler.
Recon "Adventurer" promotion fixed to remove movement *from* things like Hills, rather than *in* things like Hills, making use of the new columns.
I've been playing a lot of Ethiopia and they are actually very fun. Shocking.
If you are using 4UC then I've moved the Monolithic Church back to Mining and tweaked some of the yield increases.
I did this because the mechanic is so cute but, sadly, you never see half+ of the increases since they come before you can even build the thing, silly!
There also weren't any major implications of the different eras giving different bonuses, really.
What I've done is make it quite a niche (religion-centric) build before it would have unlocked -> approx equal yields (-1 prod) -> more variance with policies
For example you could try 2 ancient trees or 2 medieval trees. Ofc AI doesn't do this, but it's alternative yields not nerfed yields, so your appreciation may vary.
Code:
Monolithic Church
-Base yield is +1 Faith (loses 1 prod)
-Build Time reduced to 600 in line with other early UI (was 900)
-Founding now +1 Prod (loses 1 culture)
-Ancient Trees now +2 Culture (up from 1)
-Medieval Trees now +2 Science (from 1 Faith)
-Industrial Trees now +2 Faith (from 1 Science)This has the 2 Writing slots, moved from the Amphitheater. It also has some small yields, the +2 Gold on Oasis from the Garden, and it Strengthens the Historic Event Tourism from the Palace (which is nerfed).
There's a couple of motivating reasons to do this, and I credit Pdan and others on the Discord although this won't exactly align with what they're theorycrafting (because the DLL for that doesn't exist)
1) require more investment from players, and especially warmongers, to get big Tourism from passive events like Era change etc.
I note this is only going to be partially successful because a) this comes v early so later, when Tourism output is more important, its easy to build.
It would be cool to spread it over more buildings but the effect is already set to the minimum value of 1.
2) symmetrize Writing with Art and Music, having a +% Specialist building and a 2 Slot Theming building
3) allow Faith of the Masses to be split into two Beliefs, as purchase of (especially) Museum and Broadcast Tower is very powerful (but it's cool to have the options somewhere)
It's quite fiddly to make all the parts move to make room for it, but the changelog looks like this
Code:
Archive (Theology)
-- 1 Science and Culture
-- +2 Gold from Oases (from Garden)
- Garden moved back to Civil Service and its Citrus and Cocoa bonuses moved to Circus
-- 2 Slots for Writing, +2 Culture and +1 Science if Themed
- Amphitheater reduced to 1 Slot
- Artistry Cultural Exchange buffs Archive instead of Amphitheater
-- "1 Turn" of Tourism for Palace Events
- Palace reduced to 2 Turns (from 7)
- Tradition Finisher gives back 4 Turns
-- The Chartarium Religious NW gives +3 Faith to all Archives
-- Reformations rebalanced as follows
- Faith of the Masses now Amphi, Opera, and Broadcast; +2 Faith; +2 Food/Prod/Culture per Luxury
- Divine Teachings now Uni, School, Lab; +2 Sci; 15 Gold when Spreading
- NEW Custodianship has Archive, Gallery, Museum; +2 Tourism; +5 Food, 3 Sci, 2 Tourism in Cities over 20 popTo make way for this icon in the atlas I've ditched the State Treasure (Treasure Hoard) icon. There is a new one coming thanks to @Putmalk, who has been absolutely printing out top-quality icons recently, and we hope to include many in the base VP
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redrum68
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
- Messages
- 68
Your weekly dose of changes are here.
The Thrift saga continues. Not wanting to admit defeat to @redrum68 I have nevertheless come to the conclusion the bonus to Specialists is too problematic with its long-term scaling, and therefore also pushing up against Mastery (Abstinence).
New plan: +1
What can I say? Inspired.
I've also removed the caps (set to 999).
Nice to see the caps removed. I wonder what the average number of bonus resources per city that you'd be working when unlocking beliefs is? Maybe 2 per city? 3? Still not sure it quite stands up to the food panth but probably getting closer.
It varies a lot. I played 3 game starts and found the average is around 3.
Although in current game I have only 2 bonus resource in Capital and *none* in 1st expand (Continental Drift script)! Then, 3rd and 4th City have 5 and 3.
Of course if I knew I was taking Thrift I would plan a bit more, and here as Ethiopia I'm trying to maximize Strategics so it's also a bit off for that reason.
Overall I like the fact is has an internal cap, and that it's close to full strength early. Seems good.
Although in current game I have only 2 bonus resource in Capital and *none* in 1st expand (Continental Drift script)! Then, 3rd and 4th City have 5 and 3.
Of course if I knew I was taking Thrift I would plan a bit more, and here as Ethiopia I'm trying to maximize Strategics so it's also a bit off for that reason.
Overall I like the fact is has an internal cap, and that it's close to full strength early. Seems good.
Since I have done a lot of icons recently, I cannot remember, do you already have this or should I be adding it to my queue? Want to make sure I don't miss creating it.
Relatyve Mind
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2025
- Messages
- 103
Been playing Silent Decree China lately. Subterfuge is so much fun and this version of China is by far my favorite.
One gripe: As Tradition, past early game, my capital is permanently in WLTED due to the UA Great Person trigger. This leads to a pretty crazy Tradition capital pretty early. I think the UA shouldn't be giving as many turns of WLTED/Great Person Birth.
Also (related) is there anything stopping me from switching my spies back and forth thru the Counter-Spy missions so as to be triggering WLTED every 5 turns (due to the cooldown on switching counterspy missions) or so? I didn't try it but it seems possible. If so, I suppose the previous paragraph doesn't matter so much.
One gripe: As Tradition, past early game, my capital is permanently in WLTED due to the UA Great Person trigger. This leads to a pretty crazy Tradition capital pretty early. I think the UA shouldn't be giving as many turns of WLTED/Great Person Birth.
Also (related) is there anything stopping me from switching my spies back and forth thru the Counter-Spy missions so as to be triggering WLTED every 5 turns (due to the cooldown on switching counterspy missions) or so? I didn't try it but it seems possible. If so, I suppose the previous paragraph doesn't matter so much.
Glad you enjoy it. Spies can be fun!!
The WLTKD effect is an old UA effect for China and it doesn't let you choose the number of turns, it's just the default 10 afaik.
You can switch spies around to trigger WLTKD, that's intended. There's the internal CD on switching and then you have to wait for them to move.
The internal CD could be higher to prevent this (less micro) but I don't think I can change it from the database.
The WLTKD effect is an old UA effect for China and it doesn't let you choose the number of turns, it's just the default 10 afaik.
You can switch spies around to trigger WLTKD, that's intended. There's the internal CD on switching and then you have to wait for them to move.
The internal CD could be higher to prevent this (less micro) but I don't think I can change it from the database.
Relatyve Mind
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2025
- Messages
- 103
You're seeing that all this amounts to Beijing (and maybe another city as the years go by) being in perma-WLTED, right? That feels pretty OP. But also you are the balancing god here, so I'm totally willing to learn
Also, does the amphitheater get anything flashy now that you've stolen its two writing slots?
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Relatyve Mind
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2025
- Messages
- 103
in a way, this is good news--I can truly take pride in the success (so far) of my China game
Sorry to bother you again, but shouldn't the barbarians "Walkers", "Woodsman" and the pictish warrior "Highlanders" promotions also be modified.
Relatyve Mind
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2025
- Messages
- 103
Would it be possible for you to write an exception to the No Fishing Boats change for Tlingit? So they can still do their thing? I've been afraid to play with them using Changes.
Ran many test games for EE with the new Archive also active and came to conclusion it was doing too much to accelerate CV. Basically CV leader is often just one of the two score leaders and ends up with 15--20 Cities: wide scaling is too powerful later on.
Trying new effect
"When a GP is born in this City, gain 50% of Empire Tourism as Science and Culture"
uses the new table for Kabuki Theatre.
Also fixed a bug on faith purchasing Archives belief (ty @gwennog for noticing)
The long standing Rationalism happiness issue has been bothering me and it suddenly occurred that a sensible solution is just not to repeat the effect in Progress (the 1 Happiness / (15) Citizens)
After all, this is really only giving a bonus later into the game, and in general our aim is to keep a lid on Ancient tree scaling too hard.
So I've done the following to Progress and Rationalism
-- Equality loses 1 Happiness per 15 Citizens
I want this in Rationalism and its stacking is bugged
Also its one of those late-game effects on an Ancient tree, not desirable
-- Equality gains 1 Prod/Gold/GAP from City Connections
1 Prod and Gold were lost in a rebalance, this delays them. GAP is to make up for lost happiness at 15 pop
-- Emancipation (was Rights of Man)
Removed gains +1 Happiness from Zoo, Museum, and Hotel~~
Gains +1 Happiness per 8 Citizens (note Progress must also change due to bug)
As I note there, this restores some yields that were removed from the first policies (correct move, the early boost was too much) but now gates them both later and behind the city connection. I think that feels like a good compromise to the loss of power. Ofc the debate about ancient balance rages on so ymmv.
Trying new effect
"When a GP is born in this City, gain 50% of Empire Tourism as Science and Culture"
uses the new table for Kabuki Theatre.
Also fixed a bug on faith purchasing Archives belief (ty @gwennog for noticing)
The long standing Rationalism happiness issue has been bothering me and it suddenly occurred that a sensible solution is just not to repeat the effect in Progress (the 1 Happiness / (15) Citizens)
After all, this is really only giving a bonus later into the game, and in general our aim is to keep a lid on Ancient tree scaling too hard.
So I've done the following to Progress and Rationalism
-- Equality loses 1 Happiness per 15 Citizens
I want this in Rationalism and its stacking is bugged
Also its one of those late-game effects on an Ancient tree, not desirable
-- Equality gains 1 Prod/Gold/GAP from City Connections
1 Prod and Gold were lost in a rebalance, this delays them. GAP is to make up for lost happiness at 15 pop
-- Emancipation (was Rights of Man)
Removed gains +1 Happiness from Zoo, Museum, and Hotel~~
Gains +1 Happiness per 8 Citizens (note Progress must also change due to bug)
As I note there, this restores some yields that were removed from the first policies (correct move, the early boost was too much) but now gates them both later and behind the city connection. I think that feels like a good compromise to the loss of power. Ofc the debate about ancient balance rages on so ymmv.
Because the tree isn't tall per-se, it's more like "big pop". So lots of growth, and happiness is key to that.
Ofc total pop actually scales better wide since for the same number of citizens you have less of a food requirement.
The previous bonus was 3 happiness tied to Buildings which for a wider Empire probably amounts to the same thing, but for a Tall empire it doesn't feel good--you want to have a nice reward for getting your 30+ pop Cities up. That's the idea.
Ofc total pop actually scales better wide since for the same number of citizens you have less of a food requirement.
The previous bonus was 3 happiness tied to Buildings which for a wider Empire probably amounts to the same thing, but for a Tall empire it doesn't feel good--you want to have a nice reward for getting your 30+ pop Cities up. That's the idea.
I've added a new module that reverts the Light Tank to the Armored Car, with non-steampunk model this time.
The Helicopter Gunship is moved back a column to Lasers, and a new Helicopter is introduced at Computers between the Car and the Gunship.
This Vietnam-era "Utility Helicopter" doesn't yet have Anti-Tank Rounds.
Helicopter icon by me and Armored Car icon by EmeraldRange.
Separately I've moved XCOM and GDR back to the final column of techs. I don't like how they're contemporary with real units. As always you can delete the "EasterEggUnits.sql" if you disagree.
Also fixed a typo in the Remedy Belief that meant it wasn't applying the food bonus from Specialist correctly.
Note: Archive bonus currently scales with era. This is bug in 4UC table and will be fixed in next VP version.
The Helicopter Gunship is moved back a column to Lasers, and a new Helicopter is introduced at Computers between the Car and the Gunship.
This Vietnam-era "Utility Helicopter" doesn't yet have Anti-Tank Rounds.
Helicopter icon by me and Armored Car icon by EmeraldRange.
Separately I've moved XCOM and GDR back to the final column of techs. I don't like how they're contemporary with real units. As always you can delete the "EasterEggUnits.sql" if you disagree.
Also fixed a typo in the Remedy Belief that meant it wasn't applying the food bonus from Specialist correctly.
Note: Archive bonus currently scales with era. This is bug in 4UC table and will be fixed in next VP version.
