Holy Roman Empire as a new civilization

[LightSpectra]

I thought this topic was significant enough to warrant a new thread.

The Holy Roman Empire lasted a good 1000 years, even though it was no longer a unified nation in its last 300. During the Middle Ages, it had a significant army, comparable to England and France, in addition to having the largest landmass in western Europe at the time.

We're going to have ten new civilizations in Beyond the Sword; assume after the given four, we also have Byzantium, the Mayans, Scandinavia, Sumeria and the Hittites (the nations from Civilization 3 that aren't in Warlords). There's still one left, and the First Reich had a considerably bigger impact than most of these.

It's true we already have Germany, but that does not sufficiently cover every Germanic nation; Charlemagne, for example, is considered both the father of France and central Europe. Besides, we already have quite a few overlapping civilizations. Frederick can stay under Germany, since although he was a Prussian emperor, he ruled after the Holy Roman Empire had begun to collapse. Thus, I propose Charlemagne (Imp/Prot).

I don't know what the unique building or unit could be.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Why not just call them the Teutons? I always thought that the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither holy nor Roman) to be just the glory days of the Teutons.

 

[The Lance]

Why not just call them the Teutons? I always thought that the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither holy nor Roman) to be just the glory days of the Teutons.

The Holy Roman empire was both Holy and Roman, in that is was legitimized by the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Bast]

I think generally people accept it as Germany. It is the "erste Reich" (First Reich) after all.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

The Holy Roman empire was both Holy and Roman, in that is was legitimized by the Roman Catholic Church.

Okay, if that's the way you want to spin it...

 

[The Lance]

Okay, if that's the way you want to spin it...

lol, has nothing to do with they way I spin it. That's how it has been spun for centuries.

 

[mitsho]

The HRE Empire is represented by Germany. Point. If you want to add up on it, add Austria (partially the same as the Habsburgs) whose emperors were for quite a time the Holy Roman Emperors.

There is no place for a second German civ, and if you want Charlemagne. Why not add him for both civs? Meaning you can play as him with either Germany or France. Wouldn't that be a great solution adapted to civ4-possibilities? You can also have Charles V. for Spain and Austria as well.

mfG mick

 

[Andy_Candy]

... or Oscar II for both Norway and Sweeden.....

 

[cuchulain]

lol, has nothing to do with they way I spin it. That's how it has been spun for centuries.

HRE might be able to be considered holy and roman during charlemagne but not really after that. The heart of the Empire was always in Germany and its control over Rome was brief. Most HRE rulers spent their lives trying to subdue their lords and never made it to Rome.

In terms of holiness, the Stupor Mundi was excommunicated and started a tradition of declaring war on the Pope and invading Italy so I would think that by the 13th century the holy and roman part was simply nominal. Also, even a lot of people back then didn't consider it holy or roman.

 

[Chamaedrys]

The HRE Empire is represented by Germany. Point. If you want to add up on it, add Austria (partially the same as the Habsburgs) whose emperors were for quite a time the Holy Roman Emperors.

There is no place for a second German civ, and if you want Charlemagne. Why not add him for both civs? Meaning you can play as him with either Germany or France. Wouldn't that be a great solution adapted to civ4-possibilities? You can also have Charles V. for Spain and Austria as well.

mfG mick

I agree with that. The HRE was some kind of a medieval German UN.

 

[rabidveggie]

Wasn't the Byzantine empire the remains of the Holy Roman Empire? They continued with legions, had a professional standing army, and Constantine who made Christianity Romes official religion. So it seems you're getting your wish already.

 

[kristopherb]

i don't now much about the holy roman empire but ive heard this quote"the holy roman empire is neither holy,roman nor an empire"

 

[Blaarg]

So if you have both the Holy Roman Empire and Germans in the same game, who gets to found Berlin?

 

[Blaarg]

Wasn't the Byzantine empire the remains of the Holy Roman Empire? They continued with legions, had a professional standing army, and Constantine who made Christianity Romes official religion. So it seems you're getting your wish already.

No, you're confused. Byzantine was the remains of the Roman Empire, namely it's eastern territories.

The Holy Roman Empire refers to a different state that existed in the middle ages that included modern day Italy and Germany as well as other areas. It was basically the Empire of the Catholic Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

 

[hahntsak]

No, you're confused. Byzantine was the remains of the Roman Empire, namely it's eastern territories.

The Holy Roman Empire refers to a different state that existed in the middle ages that included modern day Italy and Germany as well as other areas. It was basically the Empire of the Catholic Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

In his Essai sur l'histoire generale et sur les moeurs et l'espirit des nations (1756), the French essayist and philosopher Voltaire described the Holy Roman Empire as an "agglomeration" which was "neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire".

from the page you list here.

it didn't hold italian territory very much for very long, the leaders though sanctioned by the church were notorious for their unholy actions and were elected - forgive me but empires are siezed positions not elected.


I believe that charlemagne founded it as a way of driving the moors [muslims] from europe and establish a large, strong, christian state. on his death, the empire split along lines of his grandsons. Otto getting the east german lands and louis getting essentially france. so the HRE could represent germany, france, and the netherlands as well. the beginning of spain as we know it was charlemagne's spanish march. after the fall of western rome, spain [roman province] was settled by the visigoths as I remember it then the arabs came and a lot of place names changed. Gualajara [spain] was once Arriaca under the Iberians then under the arabs it became Wadi al Hara or Wad-al-Hayara (واد الحجرة or وادي الحجر&#1577, meaning "River of Stones" or "Valley of the Fortress"; Wadi being a valley or river.

charlemagne [charles the great] aka charles martel [charles the hammer] stopped the spread of islam into europe via spain. the balkans would only allow islam once the ottoman turks converted to islam. under the bizantines, they guarded that flank.
we seem to still be fighting this one out and don't seem to be settling it anytime soon.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

I thought this topic was significant enough to warrant a new thread.

The Holy Roman Empire lasted a good 1000 years, even though it was no longer a unified nation in its last 300. During the Middle Ages, it had a significant army, comparable to England and France, in addition to having the largest landmass in western Europe at the time.

We're going to have ten new civilizations in Beyond the Sword; assume after the given four, we also have Byzantium, the Mayans, Scandinavia, Sumeria and the Hittites (the nations from Civilization 3 that aren't in Warlords). There's still one left, and the First Reich had a considerably bigger impact than most of these.

It's true we already have Germany, but that does not sufficiently cover every Germanic nation; Charlemagne, for example, is considered both the father of France and central Europe. Besides, we already have quite a few overlapping civilizations. Frederick can stay under Germany, since although he was a Prussian emperor, he ruled after the Holy Roman Empire had begun to collapse. Thus, I propose Charlemagne (Imp/Prot).

I don't know what the unique building or unit could be.

We already have Scandinavia, and plus the HRE is simply Germany in the Middle Ages. You argue that the current Germany doesn't cover all the various German states are you forgetting that other places in the world are totally lacking a civ namely southeast asia. So you are saying we have to add more German civs on top of Germany before a southeast asia civ, or a ethiopia, or a babylon, or anything else that has not been represented???

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I would love to see Charlemagne in the game, but it's hard since at the end of his reign, the kingdom/empire of the Franks encompassed much of Germany, France, and Lombardy (northern Italy) in a big blob... which country gets him? He was the first Holy Roman Emperor, defender of Rome, King of the Franks. Where would he fit best?

 

[flyingchicken]

The Holy Roman Empire was a state, not a Civilization. It was culturally German, Austrian, French, et cetera, and did not develop a unique "Holy Roman" culture (as the Americans developed the "American" culture).

Culture is an important basis for denoting a group of people as a civilization. Of course, the line between Civ and State is quite blurred (partially thanks to this game ), and a Civ is not always politically united into a single state (like ancient China).

 

[silver 2039]

The HRE most certainely shouldn't be in there and neither should Byzantium. The HRE is represented by Germany and Byzantium by Rome.

We need a Khmer civ, a Abyssinian civ, and a Zulu or Bantu civ. Africa is particularly underepresented. Oh and Carthage. We need Carthage too.

 

[flyingchicken]

Zulu and Carthage already exist in Warlords.