Holy Roman Empire

[Blackadder]

Well, until someone works out how to build cities on the 'scenarios', I can't make this a real one, but I would like some information on how to get specific starting-civ locations and information on the different kingdoms. (Its not set for a specific time)

Saxony:
cap. Dresden.
city . Dessau.

Bavaria:
cap. Munchen.
city. Nuremburg.

Brandenburg-Prussia:
cap. Berlin
city.Magdeburg
city.Kustrin.
city.Thorn
city.Danzig
city.Konigsberg
city.Breslain

Hansa (Hanseatic league)
cap.Lubeck
city.Bremen
city.Hamburg
city.Stralsund.
city.Kolberg.

Hannover
cap.Hannover
city.Oldenburg

Hessen
Cap.Kassal
city.Munster

Kleves.
Cap.Dusseldorf.

Cologne
cap.Koln

The Palatinat.
cap.Mainz
city.Heidelberg.

Thuringen
cap.Erfurt.

Wurtemburg
cap.Stuttgart.

I will also include Austria, Poland, Holland and Switzerland. I would like the names of leaders and any available information for all principalities except Brandenburg-Prussia. If you feel I have left out important cities/towns, please tell me.The leader of Hansa will probably be the Hanstag anyway.......

Also, should I include Baden and Lorraine?

 

[Hadrian]

Some thoughts:

I wonder what role (if any) the Emperor will play? Remind that only some of them were "toothless tigers", most of them were fierce rulers (Otto I, Friedrich I Barbarossa, Friedrich II, Heinrich IV, Karl V) who crushed their vasalls when they tried to kick against the Reich. But things got worse with the Bulla Aurea (1356) and after the 30-Years-War (1618-1648).
The Roman Emperor has (almost - 2 exceptions I know so far) always been the German king, who had been elected by the 7 electors ("Kurfürst") according to 1356's Bulla Aurea ("Goldene Bulle"):

1. Archbishop of Köln (Cologne)
2. Archbishop of Mainz
3. Archbishop of Trier
4. King of Bohemia
5. The Count Palatine
6. Duke of Saxony
7. Margrave (Marquis?) of Brandenburg

(The King of Bohemia later lost his elector's dignity to Bavaria.)

Those seven princes were the mightiest and most respected persons of the Empire, sometimes even surpassing the "Kaiser" (Caesar, emperor) himself.
Anyway, maybe you just crown the archduke of Austria Roman Emperor, the house of Habsburg got some kind of subscription anyway. ;-) The first one (Rudolf I) was elected because he seemed so innocuous...
The election was held in Frankfurt, a free city ("Reichsstadt") then. The elected king was crowned in Aachen. Being crowned, the German King now possessed the entitlement of being crowned Roman Emperor. After Charles V (Karl) the German King became Roman Emperor right after being elected without the need of a pope of Rome.


Another important part played the so called "Freie Reichsstädte", the free cities of the Reich. They appertaining to the Reich (i.e. emperor) with no other prince to fear. Hmm, I think it's a good idea to represent those free cities by one of their leagues, the "Hanse".



some more cities:

(some may appear twice, possessors changed quite often, so you choose)

Dessau is not Saxony. It is the capital of a province called "Anhalt" whose leaders cultivated close ties to the Prussian kings.

Saxony:
- Leipzig
- Chemnitz
- Plauen
- Zwickau
- Freiberg
- Bautzen
- Meißen
- Pirna
- Döbeln
- Wurzen
- Mittweida
- Meerane
- Annaberg


Bavaria:
- Regensburg
- Würzburg (Wuerzburg)
- Augsburg
- Ingolstadt
- Kempten
- Straubing
- Landshut
- Passau
- Fürth
- Erlangen
- Bamberg
- Bayreuth
- Aschaffenburg


Brandenburg/Prussia:
- capital: Potsdam (!!!)
- Königsberg
- Magdeburg
- Danzig
- Breslau
- Stettin
- Gdingen
- Posen
- Münster
- Halle
- Kolberg
- Memel
- Tilsit
- Liegnitz
- Kattowitz
- Brandenburg
- Wittenberge
- Neuruppin
- Cottbus
- Prenzlau
- Eberswalde
- Oranienburg


Hanse:
- Rostock
- Oldenburg
- Stettin
- Wismar
- Greifswald
- Stralsund
- Cuxhaven
- Kiel
- Sassnitz
- Gdingen
- Riga
- Reval


Hannover:
- Braunschweig
- Lüneburg
- Celle
- Gifhorn
- Uelzen
- Hildesheim
- Goslar
- Osnabrück
- Wilhelmshaven
- Harburg
- Linden
- Hameln
- Lehrte

Kleve and Cologne can be put to Prussia, they were too small (and got swallowed later anyway).

Thuringia:
- capital: Erfurt
- Weimar
- Gotha
- Jena
- Gera
- Arndstadt
- Coburg
- Suhl
- Rudolstadt
- Altenburg

Württemberg:
- Stuttgart
- Ulm
- Heilbronn
- Ludwigsburg
- Eßlingen
- Marbach
- Reutlingen
- Tübingen
- Tuttlingen

Baden:
- cap. Karlsruhe
- Mannheim
- Heidelberg
- Konstanz
- Lörrach
- Freiburg
- Offenburg
- Pforzheim
- Baden


Palatinate:
- Kaiserslautern
- Ludwigshafen
- Pirmasens
- Speyer
- Frankenthal
- Landau
- Zweibrücken
- Germersheim


Hesse:
- Wiesbaden
- Darmstadt
- Offenbach
- Marburg
- Fulda
- Worms
- Hanau
- Bockenheim
- Homburg
- Limburg
- Bingen
- Gießen


Elsass-Lothringen:
- Strassburg
- Metz
- Mühlhausen
- Kolmar
- Hagenau
- Wörth
- Weißenburg
- Zabern
- Saargemünd
- Diedenhofen
- Gebweiler


Some leaders:
Saxony: August I
Bavaria: Maximilian I
Prussia: Friedrich II / Wilhelm I
Hansa: Jürgen Wullenwever
Hannover: Ernst August I
Hessen: Philipp I
Thuringia: Ekkehard I
Palatinate: Konrad I / Friedrich V
Baden: Friedrich I
Württemberg: Ulrich I


German umlauts always transcript as follows:
ä --> ae
ö --> oe
ü --> ue
ß --> ss
Never never ever just omit the dots!
To produce umlauts on non-German keyboards hold down ALT and enter (via numpad!) the decimal ASCII representation of the wanted character. For Windows systems:
142 = Ä
153 = Ö
154 = Ü
132 = ä
148 = ö
129 = ü
225 = ß



Ok, don't hesitate to ask me if you need more info. German history is my forte.

 

[Hitro]

Great list there Hadrian

One suggestion about the Hanse: You should include three of the most powerful Hanseatic towns, Lübeck, Bremen and Hamburg. And are you sure about all of the others? Oldenburg for example?

 

[topguy]

I could give you information about poland, but starting from what years?

 

[Blackadder]

I think the westen part of Poland for my first 'trial' small map, probably from Krakow and Posen.I will have Prussia already having Westen Prussia and Danzig and Memel.

Thanx Hadrian, I had to use Europea Universalis to get my information so I'm very glad an expert could be called in.
Though should I include Lorraine?

And if Prussia took the two small independants, wouldn't it be too powerful? I want to try and balance the map so it won't take too long for one turn.
I had actually thought of Maximillian the First but please select the Austrian Emperor you think best.
Irealise that Hannover eventually took Hanseatic territories, to such a point that they were included in the Brit-Germ army against Napolean in Leipzig. Any information is appretiated, any feed-back welcomed although I do wonder, IF Prussia gets all these territories, should I have Austro-Bohemia?

Looks like I'll have to extend the map...............


Oh yes, one more thing, Iwas thinking of giving the Hanseatic League a merchant consortium government (one I've tried to make), any others not already mentioned?

 

[Hadrian]

@Hitro
Sure: Luebeck, Hamburg and Bremen were among the strongest Hanse cities, but Blackadder (btw, I love this Rowan Atkinson series) already mentioned those.

Ok, Brandenburg, or then Prussia, got strong with Frederick II the Great (or like we'd call him: "der alte Fritz" - the old Fritz) and his wars, esp. 7-years-war.

Maybe you should not include Elsass-Lothringen (Alsac-Lorraine), because it's never been a principality as a whole. It consisted of Habsburg territories and free imperial cities. Strassburg got lost almost overnight when Louis XIV marched in taking advantage of inner German conflicts and invading Turks. But Louis carried too far when he tried to take the Palatinate and "Reichskrieg" was declared. That is all princes of the empire declared war 1689 and most of these so called "Reunions" were won back.

But I would include Austria. It was one of the German principalities and became the mightiest by its famous marriages. The ruling prince's rank was archduke - until 1804 when Franz II declared himself emperor of Austria as Franz I. Funny is that he remained Roman Emperor until 1806 as Franz II.

Austria
- cap. Wien (Vienna)
- Prag
- Graz
- Salzburg
- Bruenn
- Linz
- Bozen
- Pressburg
- Innsbruck
- Klagenfurt
- Triest
- Ofen
- Pest
- Koeniggraetz
- Feldkirch
- Kufstein
- Kulm
- Pilsen
- Laibach

Note that the cities of ofen and Pest formed Budapest later.

Switzerland would be a great idea to bring in some balance between Prussia and Austria. It was not until 1648 when the "Schweiz" de jure became independent from the Reich.

Bavaria has always been one of the strongest realms. The Palatinate became a Bavarian province later.
Maybe Prussia should be reduced to its "native" provinces, say Brandenburg, Pommerania, East Prussia (with Koenigsberg, where Prussian kings were crowned) and maybe Silesia. Latter was taken away from Austria's Maria-Theresia by Frederick II.

Another principality could be "Mecklenburg".
- cap. Schwerin
- Guestrow
- Parchim
- Waren
- Ratzeburg
- Glewe
- Ludwigslust
- Wittenburg
- Grevesmuehlen
- Doemitz
- Grabow
- Pritzwalk
- Crivitz
- Sternberg
- Hagenow
- Boizenburg

I would suggest Duke "Albrecht III" as the leader who also became King of Sweden.

Ok, Hannover. Beside the fact that they became the dynasty in England (due to some strange facts, marriages, and relationships) the dukes of Hannover ruled over rather small and scattered territories in northern Germany. When Napolean marched in he put all those territories of a handful of realms into the kingdom of Westfalia and presented his not very gifted brother Jerome as its king. Soon after the alliance of Russia, Austria, England, and Prussia (yes, Wellington and Bluecher!) kicked both out, the "Congress of Vienna" decided the future of central Europe. Since England was one of the victorious nations its foreign secretary Viscount Castlereagh pushed the re-erection of Hannover, this time as a kingdom, still linked in personal union with the British crown. So it was not until 1815 that Hannover took so much of Northern Germany. In 1866 when Hannover decided to support Austria in the Austro-Prussian-War it rendered itself obsolete. Prussia promised not to touch it if it keeps neutral but the blind (literally) King of Hannover knew better. Obviously not. So it was annexed and appeared as a Prussian province on the maps.
But it would be too much work to have all those small principalities like Oldenburg, Stade, Braunschweig, Lauenburg, Lippe-Detmold, Schaumburg-Lippe etc. so we should "unite" them as "Kingdom of Hannover". Bremen and Hamburg were still independent, even today they represent states ("Laender") of their own!!! We can have the Hanse cities as a prey for Mecklenburg, Hannover, Prussia and Poland. ;-) If you like of course.


Sorry for my English - it's too late now. I'm gonna tell you the new Bavarian leader tomorrow because you're perfectly right: Maximilian I was one of the greatest Austrian leaders. (The Bavarian Max got nothing (well...) to do with him anyway.)


ttfn (more tomorrow)
Hadrian

 

[Blackadder]

Cheers, Hadrian. Keep up the good research


And Topguy, I've tried to extend the map to standard and I think I've now got room for the WHOLE of Poland, plus one western Lithuanian and Belarussian province/city.

This leaves Switzerland cities, more Austrian and Czech/Slovakian provinces (divided between Poland-Lith and Austria)

NOW THE IMPORTANT PART:

ANY TECH CHAPS OUT THERE? Please figure out how starting locations and cities can be added.


P.S. There is a Blackadder site in Humour and Jokes......

 

[Hadrian]

The leader of bavaria could be Ludwig IV (1282-1347) of the house of "Wittelsbach" who was elected German King and thus became Roman Emperor. He is also called "Ludwig der Bayer" (Ludwig the Bavarian). The house of Wittelsbach remained in power until 1918 btw. The rank/title should be "duke" because Bavaria only became a kingdom by Napoleon's interference at the beginning of the 19th century.

Ok, let's summarize what we have:

- Hansa as a merchant consortium
- Saxony: King August I
- Bavaria: Duke Ludwig IV
- Prussia: King Frederick II
- Austria: Archduke Maximilian I
- Hannover: King Ernst August I
- Hesse: Grand Duke Philipp I
- Palatinate: Count Palatine Konrad I
- Thuringia: Duke Ekkehard I
- Wuerttemberg: King Ulrich I
- Baden: Grand Duke Frederick I
- Mecklenburg: Duke Albrecht III

Since almost all greater cities were members of the Hansa at a time we can put a lot of power into it: e.g. Cologne, it was one of the most important Hansa cities, esp. with trading in London.

Now you Blackadder (as the one with the idea) choose which one you like best and we can start work out things like unique unit and qualities.

Hope you don't mind some suggestions:

- Hansa: com/ind - Kogge (Caravel, A)
- Saxony: com/rel - Dragons (Cavalry, D)
- Bavaria: rel/exp - Ritter (Knight, A)
- Prussia: mil/sci - Ulanen (Cavalry, A)
- Austria: rel/mil - Imperial Guards (Musket Man, D)
- Hannover: - exp/sci -
- Hesse: ind/com -
- Palatinate: rel/com -
- Thuringia: ind/rel -
- Wuerttemberg: ind/sci -
- Baden: sci/rel -
- Mecklenburg: com/exp -

Qualities:
mil - militaristic
ind - industrious
com - commecial
rel - religious
exp - expansionist
sci - scientific

Unique Unit's increased value:
A - attack
D - defense
M - movement
B - bombardment power
R - range
F - rate of fire

To be historically accurate I would have to go investigate. But who cares? We can just lay down what we like and what we think is best for balance...

I would like to know what you think about all this so far.

ttfn

 

[Blackadder]

So that makes 15 civilisations in all, Including Holland, Poland-Lith and Switzerland. I fear we shall be forced to scale back.

Could we fuse any countries together? It's incorrect, but Swabia as an independant kingdom? (could well tip the balance or maybe not.......)

And how about a new government, one in which a Dukedom is somewhat slightly different from a monarchy.

The technology will probably start in the 'Middle Ages',
Of course for realism some times will be renamed.......
(How about imperial era= Napolionic to 1850 times, and the modern a 'fantasy' of a never united Germany)

If no-one can find any special units, I'm sure the natives will forgive us for making them up.(or better yet, correct us)

Did the reformation take place in Wurtemburg (possible blind spot) but Wuerttemburg was Counter-reformed. So wouldn't that make it religious?

Checklist.-

Definate-Puss-Bran Def-Bavaria
Definate-Saxony Def-Austria
Def-Hannover +Swiss[Helvitia],Poles and Dutch.

 

[Hadrian]

Originally posted by Blackadder
So that makes 15 civilisations in all, Including Holland, Poland-Lith and Switzerland. I fear we shall be forced to scale back.

Could we fuse any countries together? It's incorrect, but Swabia as an independant kingdom? (could well tip the balance or maybe not.......)

Sure, during the first centuries of the empire the duchy of Swabia comprised of Wuerttemberg, Baden, and today's Alsace. So we could create a civ according to these guidelines.

More on that:
Thuringia and Saxony can form the Duchies of Saxony since Thuringia never existed as a whole. It's always been a huddle of Saxonian duchies, like Sachsen-Weimar, Sachsen-Altenburg, Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha (the house of the today's British and Belgian monarchs) etc. etc.

Cf. this map on the Saxonian states of Thuringia

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Thueringer Staaten EA 1914++.jpg

This is approx. the area of the today's free state of Thuringia. Now you know what German sectionalism means... ;-)

Furthermore we can fuse Bavaria and the Palatinate (since it later got part of Bavaria anyway).
We could also pretend Mecklenburg was part of the Hansa.

And how about a new government, one in which a Dukedom is somewhat slightly different from a monarchy.

Good point here, will we make it better or worse than an ordinary monarchy?

The technology will probably start in the 'Middle Ages',
Of course for realism some times will be renamed.......
(How about imperial era= Napolionic to 1850 times, and the modern a 'fantasy' of a never united Germany)

I especially like the 'fantasy'-what-could-have-been idea!!! But the Hansa ceased to exist around 1600 AD. And it was Napoleon who ultimately demanded the resignation of emperor Franz II and therefore the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806. So I think we should start maybe around 1500 or 1600. Maybe it is possible to determine how many years a turn takes, e.g. 5 years from -say- 1500-1800 and then one year=one turn. Just a thought.
Of course we can create a scenario "how would Europe look like if Napoleon would have been killed in Egypt" - starting 1800. Something like a run for the emperor's throne. The winning civ's leader becomes the emperor und unites Germany after all.

If no-one can find any special units, I'm sure the natives will forgive us for making them up.(or better yet, correct us)

We can leave this open until the very end, and if no one has a better idea we can just invent units.

Did the reformation take place in Wurtemburg (possible blind spot) but Wuerttemburg was Counter-reformed. So wouldn't that make it religious?

Hmmm, you possibly meant "Wittenberg" which is a city in Saxony (Prussia 1815-1945, today in the federal state of Saxony-Anhalt). Tricky German names. This is where Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Castle Church. Today's historians doubt the "nailing" since these theses (tricky English) were written in Latin that nobody (except theologians) could understand.
Confer
http://www.wittenberg.de/e/seiten/st010100.html
for more information on Wittenberg as the center of reformation.
Or "Wartburg" which is the name of the castle in Thuringia where Luther translated the bible.


Ok, I'll collect some infos on Holland and Switzerland.
And we need to know how to fix starting positions. I do not have any experience on customization so far except for some changes to rules and names. And now I know how to replace the original civs with those German ones but that's not very difficult.

ttfn

 

[SpaceWeasel]

I don't know much about this period/area of history, but it seems like an interesting opportunity to use the diplomatic victory. You could have being elected emperor as a way to win the game, assuming you build a wonder that corresponds to whatever the collective name of the electors was (you probably mentioned it). What do you guys think?

 

[Blackadder]

Dukedoms and Monarchys may wll be the only governments (not forgetting Hansa's special government)

However what do most people out there think?

A communist government at a certain age or perhaps a great democracy?

As for differences between monarchies and Dukedoms, I don't know.........How was the Grand Duchy of Warsaw or even Luxemburg run?

Fusing countries would be a good way to balance the strength of Prussia, Austria and Poland-Lith. It would also make times shorter. If only the citizans in these fused states could be different races, then a possible new civ could be created.

Diplomatic victory?..........Tricky. The Holy Roman Emperor, I believe was only sanctioned by the Papracy, so making it impossible for Protestant states to take that position.(They all elected the Emperor though, this probably made Austria think twice when attacking them!)
Still we could change it, especially for said Fantasy game.

'Today, his Holiness has declared that Protestants are able to become a Holy Roman Emperor. Marquis Johann VI of Prussia takes the mantle.........'

 

[SpaceWeasel]

Again, I'm out of my depth, but maybe it could simulate you forcing through the election of a favored candidate or somesuch, thus essentially giving you control? It seems like it would fit with this type of scenario.

 

[Hadrian]

Originally posted by Blackadder
As for differences between monarchies and Dukedoms, I don't know.........How was the Grand Duchy of Warsaw or even Luxemburg run?

It was not VERY different from a monarchy (with a king). Beside the fact that the duke had a boss: the emperor. By definition the emperor could depose his vasalls for disobedience. Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa deposed Henry the Lion, the duke of Saxony and Bavaria - then the mightiest prince of the empire - for not sending relief troops to northern Italy. Emperor Ferdinand I (30-Years-War) deposed the duke of Mecklenburg for no reason at all - just because his general Wallenstein wanted to be a duke. I have no idea how this "big-boss-factor" could be implemented into Civ rules. Any suggestions welcome!

Poland and Luxemburg, the Russian tsar was the king of Poland, a personal union. And the Grand Duke of Luxemburg was the king of Holland. Speaking of the years after Napoleon, i.e. 1815. So these guys had a boss too: theirselves...

Diplomatic victory?..........Tricky. The Holy Roman Emperor, I believe was only sanctioned by the Papracy, so making it impossible for Protestant states to take that position.(They all elected the Emperor though, this probably made Austria think twice when attacking them!)

Not necessarily. After Charles V was crowned by the pope in Bologna, Italy no following emperor attached great importance to papal sanction and no one asked for it. The idea was that no foreign power should be empowered to take influence on the emperor's election. So, historically, I can see no problem for having such a diplomatic victory. On the other side, I can't remember any emperor being prostestant. Wether they were from the house of Habsburg (Austria), Wittelsbach (Bavaria), or Lothringen (Lorraine) - they were all Catholics AFAIK. But I think we shouldn't care...

'Today, his Holiness has declared that Protestants are able to become a Holy Roman Emperor. Marquis Johann VI of Prussia takes the mantle.........'

Maybe Protestant civs need to accomplish a special wonder to be able to build the "Reichstag" or whatever and become emperor.

ttfn

 

[Beelzibub]

id just like to congratulate you on a great idea for a scenario.
i am very interested in German history, but am more familiar with the time of Bismarck and German unification in 1870 after the Franco-Prussian war.
I think that some of the smaller states should be fused together. Thus shortening turns and also removing civs which can achieve little on their own except succumb to invaders.
A large power like Prussia could easily invade a small principality and become unrealistically powerful as a result.

keep up the good work.
all that info was a fascinating read, regardless of whether a scenario can be made successfully out of it.

 

[Risbinroch]

a city in norway (Bergen) was part of the hansaetic league... Now if we only could be playing scenarios already, the holiday would be saved from bore

 

[Blackadder]

Sorry Risbinroch, but I really do not want to modify the map to include Scandinavia, perhaps someone could design the game on a larger map. Only trouble is, you'd soon get people wanting more and more countries.....


UNITS NOTE

Grenadiers.
Cuirassiers.

 

[Blackadder]

I have just had an idea. Why not forget about Dukedoms and have religion and idealoligy instead! For the reformation, Catholics and Protestants, then Dutch and Swiss reformest churches( or perhaps just reformest) and then counter reformest.
For the fantasy part, Weimer republic ideoligy and Nazism. Perhaps more can be thought of........

We have a total of ten countries now, and I think nations like Swabia should be ruled by the more competant ruler to that are, in other words, people like Ulrich I (Spelling?)

I was thinking of making Poland less aggressive (if it is to be so large) by giving it a stable ruler, like Wladyslaw IV Vasa (I mean peaceful in usually war was declared by other countries.....).
Was Switzerland's leader (or was it Helvitia) the Tagsatzung?

 

[Lares]

I like the idea of a scenario dealing with the holy roman empire. It's one of the most interesting parts of german history. But: The last email in this thread is already some days old. Are there still some interested persons out there?

To Hadrian: Your list of german cities is really good, but did you take it straight from a modern map? One example: You mentioned the city of Lehrte for the hanoverian civ, but Lehrte was founded around 1900. Better take some names from southern lower saxony: Göttingen, Hannoversch Münden, Northeim, Nörten-Hardenberg. I think they would be more 'historic'.

To Blackadder: I think religions and ideologies are not the right choice for the civs. Although they played a big role in german history, they never replaced the dominating role of the kings, dukes and others rulers.

 

[Blackadder]

Well it is nice to have someone reply, Lares. Yes, I was afraid this site was going to rot. A shame too because if we use the nation savegame moving mod and a few others, we might actually make this scenario. Okay, if you think I shouldn't, we'll stick with the original government ideas...

I need help placing where each resource should go where. Gold mines in Austria, Horses in Hungary, but what else goes where?
From Poland to Holland-Switzerland to Hungary..

Should we make changes to the existing governments to make them stronger or just leave them as they are?

Its good to get feed-back!