Hoover Dam slingshot

[templar_x]

Templar X I did not ask any questions here.

then i mean to apologize that i misunderstood and kind of miquoted you. you are right, there is not question in your first post.

the reason i thought so was solely that the strategy you propose is rather poor and it seemed to me that you were merely asking for advice.

now that i learn that you are actually very proud of it, i do have a long version and a short version. since you have got a family life and little time, and so do i, for the sake of both of us i will give you the short version:

you may be happy about your strategy, and may not want to improve from where you got in 9 years. but if you come into this thread to teach it to other players (and at least you now claim you did that), without reference to so much better strategies that are already collected here, and without discussing it back with really good (and not only long term) players, your suggestion will stand tested or corrected by those, so that players who frequent this thread BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MOVE UP A LEVEL can judge whether it is really good advice they are getting here.

or what do you think this forum is about?

t_x

 

[Spoonwood]

(Even I have been using it in spaceship games more than 5 years ago -- before I discovered that it makes more sense to delay ToE and pick two modern age technologies for it... )

I feel I may as well add that in my current histographic game, I plan to use Theory of Evolution for Sanitation and Replaceable Parts (someone else mentioned this in some strategy thread long ago, as potentially the quickest way to get those two techs).

 

[templar_x]

that is exactly the point. there is nothing like a "Hoover Dam Strategy". in one game where you have lots and lots of towns that can use a plant, it may be smart to do what marc... describes. but that is not a general strategy. it just fits into a certain game, in a certain situation. one could not recommend someone else to pursue it per se.

like vmxa, i hardly ever will have that situation, and on this difficulty level probably never. (actually i cannot think of any situation where this specific plan could really be the best option, but let us keep that aside.)

in many games it will be much wiser to take the most expensive techs, and even modern age techs if possible. (marc.... i recommend you to read how this is done and you very probably look like when you realize how powerful that is!).
and in other games, like Spoon´s, you will take whatever tech suits your gameplay in that situation.

t_x

 

[marceagleye]

I have had a few days to cool off and I've read all your replies. Good stuff. I am too quick to react too often, and in this case, I admit I went too far. So first I apologize to you, VMXA, as your advice was genuine and good-hearted, not condescendingly authoritative as I received it originally. I'm very sorry about that. I want no enemies here and I hope you can forgive me. Even if you can't it's okay, since any negative feelings are certainly justified.

Now more about the strategy... I've always been a builder first. I want to build the finest civilization man has ever seen. Building Hoover Dam gives you an exponential thrust towards that. But it is so much more versatile than that. No matter what your style of victory, it can help you achieve it quicker and more convincingly than without. As far as a single, specific purpose for building it, it is to be able to out-produce the AI overwhelmingly sooner rather than later across your entire civilization-not just your core cities. Now if I come to a point in the game where I realize a peaceful victory is unlikely, war is a lot easier now that every city in my empire is building a tank in 2 turns or less. Achieving that level of production without Hoover Dam? I just don't know. Seems awfully difficult. My general idea here is to be able to out-produce the AI so overwhelmingly and convincingly that it simply doesn't matter what type of victory you are pursuing. You have the advantage regardless.

As far as having workers doing nothing...most of the time I'm able to reach a point where there is no work to be done. My core cities are all size 12 so joining them is not an option. Joining the edge cities at this stage doesn't work either as they are at capacity until improvements under construction allow for expanded growth. If cities are already at capacity and workforce is of satisfactory size for fast-track rail improvements upon Steam Power discovery, disbanding said workforce is counterproductive.

I find each level advance gives less flexibility in style of play. I want to be a builder because that's how I like to play. The more I'm forced into early wars to survive the less I like to play the game. Unfortunately that's what the higher levels seem to do. They prevent you from playing the way you want to play and force you into a style of play you don't like. Do I want to beat the game at Sid some day? Sure, but if a specific victory path that is not fun absolutely must be followed to achieve that victory, then what's the point? After all, we do play this game for fun, right? I want the flexibility to have choices in my build options. I want the game to be fun. I want to enjoy it the way I always have. I want to build first, then war. Because of this, it is conceiveable I never advance another level, but at least I'll still love the game and continue to play it for the rest of my life.

 

[Spoonwood]

I agree that the higher levels don't give you as much flexibility in style of play, at least in a certain sense.

That said, I will remark that I've played plenty of game where I've haven't warred in the ancient age or even the early middle ages (except maybe a fake war for a post-Republic GA) on Demi-God, Deity, and Sid levels. Though I've played Deity maps with the AI at most aggressive where I haven't had to war early, I think the easiest way to help prevent early wars comes as to turn down the aggression level (and do things like acceding to demands.. if they come... I've very rarely had them with the least aggressive setting, not settling at a CxC spacing next to an AI city, etc.). So, if you turn up the game level, and don't want to war early, turn down the aggression level.

I also do believe that I've had close (though not necessarily equal to, or very close to) to that sort of production without Hoover Dam in terms of units produced, at least in some sense. As I said before "6. It seems you intend this strategy for a military victory. The point of building Hoover's seems to increase your production of units. In other words, more powerful units faster. With that firmly in mind, it generally comes as better to research to a certain point (Military Tradition, Steam Power, or Replaceable Parts), and then shut off research. Or alternatively, keep researching, but sell techs for gpt as much as you can. You then use the money to buy armies, or disconnect your iron/saltpeter, change builds to horses (try and capture Leo's early, or at least get it as soon as you can), then reconnect your iron/saltpeter on the same turn, but don't change your builds from horses. Then when the horse completes on the inter-turn, zoom to the city and upgrade it to a knight/cavalry. You can get 2 or 3 turn knights/cavalry on plenty of maps with this strategy, especially if you tie this in with short-rushing. In this way, you can get more powerful units faster and earlier than with Hoover's."

Granted cavalry don't have as much force as tanks do, but you don't have as much of a possibility of facing (all that many) bombers this way, and the AIs don't have as much time to train a force for you to kill this way. You also have the possibility of facing more backward units this way. Then again, it does come as at least fair to say that you don't have the blitz ability as you would with tanks, unless you use Cossacks.

Though you can find HoF, and I would guess some XOTM games where tank wars have occurred, I doubt you'll find that the top placing games in these competitions warred with tanks at all, or not that much. I will say that one of my number 1 Demi-God space games had a war with tanks going on shortly before I started building my spaceship in peace at the end, but I did war much more before this with knights, cavalry, cannons, and artillery proper.

 

[vmxa]

marceagleye, not to worry. Incident, if there even was one, is closed.

My agrument on Hoover is it is a fine wonder, but who needs it? If I can build, it means I already have an easy game and don't need it. Many of my games will find the AI finished it and I am still in the late Middle Ages.

In easier games like AWE going for conquest, I don't care about it as I am not going to make more than a handful of factories and will make a coal plant and be fine. It just comes so late and cost too many shields.

If we get to tanks, I only need 4-6 places making them. I am already punishing them with cavs. I just need a few tanks to use on cleaning up landings and to fill a few armies armies. I actually prefer cav armies to tank armies, unless I face infantry. The extra movement is too important to go for tanks in armies.

Main exception is a massive 31 civ AW game and there I need a lot more units and a lot more towns making them.

Maybe you can explain to me how it does anything exponential. For sure I would never have any across the empire production. You do know that the free plant has no effect, unless you have a factory, right? So I presume you will not have a factory everywhere, that would be painful.

50% boost to 1 net shield is 0 additional shields and without a factory it is a 0% boost to shields, regardless of corruption.

 

[Elephantium]

I have had a few days to cool off and I've read all your replies. Good stuff. I am too quick to react too often, and in this case, I admit I went too far. So first I apologize to you, VMXA, as your advice was genuine and good-hearted, not condescendingly authoritative as I received it originally. I'm very sorry about that. I want no enemies here and I hope you can forgive me. Even if you can't it's okay, since any negative feelings are certainly justified.

Now that's a class act.

 

[agonistes]

Maybe you can explain to me how it does anything exponential. For sure I would never have any across the empire production. You do know that the free plant has no effect, unless you have a factory, right? So I presume you will not have a factory everywhere, that would be painful.

Let me begin by saying that lately I have been playing modded maps where a city can have multiple production boosting buildings (refinery, coal plant, iron works, etc). Because of this, the Hoover Dam is a must have (I haven't been playing with any victory conditions turned on). However, you still need a factory to build a coal plant, hydro plant, and so forth.

I usually build the Hoover Dam while cities are builing factories, or just before I get industrialization, and I have noticed that the shield production goes up at once - the free plant is increasing shields in cities without factories.

The only change made was that the 'replaces buildings with this flag checked' has been unchecked. (edit: well, some other changes too, but none that could possibly have an impact on whether or not the free hydroplants increase production with no factory present).

'nother edit: to the OP, I find the Dam useful for not just building factories, but also for hospitals. You are going to be upgrading to modern armor and mobile infantry soon, and the Dam can save alot of time/cash. I view it as one of the more powerful wonders in the game, so much so that I always build it. Rather me than the other guy.

 

[vmxa]

If I have no interest in mods. Second Hydro from Hoovers will give zero shields, without a factory period.


He is the simple proof. Go to Rivs SG1, it is Demigod iirc. D/L 1450AD save, note any game with Hoovers built will
do, pick a town. Look at the shields. I picked Tenochtitlan. It was making 106 shields. Sell the factory. If you
are correct, the coult would drop to about 80.

If I am correct it will drop to 53 and that is what happens. It drops to 53 as it should.

 

[agonistes]

If I have no interest in mods. Second Hydro from Hoovers will give zero shields, without a factory period.

I wasn't suggesting you *do* have an interest in mods. I was letting people know that the information I was using had come from a mod - it was a disclaimer. Frankly, I have no interest in knowing whether or not you have an interest in mods.

Your experiment is nice, but not necessarily demonstrative of any resolution of the issue. What you have shown is that if someone has a hydro from hoovers in a city, and a factory, and you sell the factory, the shield production drops. My post did not touch on that whatsoever.

I said that if I did not have a factory, and finished hoovers, shield production would still go up.

Even though not on point, I still find your post to be informative. Thanks for sharing.

 

[vmxa]

It shows that a hydro does not add shields, unless you have a factory. That means Hoovers is not doing exponential anything. It suggest you are either mistaken or your mods has made changes. Just for the record, even if Hoovers did give shields, it would not be exponential as it is only a 50% boost.

 

[MysteryX]

If you play in a mostly-peaceful builder style, Hoover's Dam is a great wonder, it gets that peaceful building done all the more faster. If you are playing with the Industrious trait, which I almost always do, it can also give you your Golden Age. The sudden production boost from Hoover's Dam and a Golden Age is quite the shot-in-the-arm.

That said, it may be more of a luxury than a necessity in such a game, because if you can afford the pre-build in one of your top towns, and you are near the top of the tech leaders such that you can get the tech to build it first, then you are already doing pretty well in the game.