Hoplite adjacency bonus
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Big J Money
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Can you link me to the thread that goes over combat calculations? I had no idea we had this level of info on that; that's awesome.
In the Pericles thread it was determined that Hoplites are max 35 strength (25 + 10) with no promotions. And that swordsmen are 45 with no promotions. So that's what I was going by. I wasn't including the swordsman bonus vs spears, but maybe the 45 value they determined includes that already. Either way, they aren't equal but yes one should be able to build more Hoplites. But that also means a higher upkeep cost unless Greece burns up their extra policy pick on the one that provides free unit maintenance.
ThomasClark
Warlord
See if you can check out this pdf of a spreadsheet I started...I logged about 9 combat results from the Devs Play Germany video. There are some things that don't quite make sense to me - in one result, a 25 point difference delivers 80 damage, in another, a 24 point difference delivers 64. One result from melee on melee at 8 points difference was 18 damage vs 43 damage.
View attachment DamageCalcs.pdf
The spearman promotion vs melee is a level 1 promotion (probably only ~5-6 combat interactions), while the Swordsman vs anti-cav units promotion is level 3. Not sure how many level 3 swordsman you're really going to have. The real cost-efficient counter to Hoplites is your own Spearman and Archers, and a focus on a well-placed encampment, walls, and teching to pikeman or crossbowman.
stealth_nsk
Deity
The last thread about it is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=574039
Swordsmen are 35 base, that was still so in the last "let's play Religion" video, but they seem to have +5 against spears/pikes, not +10 (the bonus wasn't shown in the last video as Ed pointed to China Swordsmen with Warrior and Catapult only), but we've seen it before. I'm not sure where those 45 came from.
One important point is - upkeep cost is higher for later units. So ancient era Hoplites are only 1 gold per turn and are completely negated by the policy. That's quite crazy.
EDIT:
I've just checked the Kongo video and Ngaombeba has +10 vs. Anti-Cavalry, so it seems Swordsman has it too and thus will have 45 vs. Hoplites.
Spoiler :
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ThomasClark
Warlord
The last thread about it is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=574039
Swordsmen are 35 base, that was still so in the last "let's play Religion" video, but they seem to have +5 against spears/pikes, not +10 (the bonus wasn't shown in the last video as Ed pointed to China Swordsmen with Warrior and Catapult only), but we've seen it before. I'm not sure where those 45 came from.
EDIT:
I've just checked the Kongo video and Ngaombeba has +10 vs. Anti-Cavalry, so it seems Swordsman has it too and thus will have 45 vs. Hoplites.
Spoiler :
So the Sumeria video just showed a Warrior getting +10 vs a spearman...30 strength. This shuts the door for me on the Hoplite having much use for offensive action, and says you don't need your own Spearman to counter Hoplites, you can simply use warriors.
BrokenBokken
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That's not a warrior.
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
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Im pretty sure that all units in the "melee class" get a +10 strength bonus against the "anti cavalry class" exacly like the +10 strength bonus "anti cavalry class" gets against both cavalry classes.
I have seen the +10 strength bonus for beserker against pikmen so it is tied to the unit class.
Swords needs iron and do pretty poor against horsmen who can use mobility to encircle and kill swords and ranged units. Hoplites dont have much to fear from horsemen and do not need iron so they do have some huge advantage over swords. They are also cheaper.
I have seen the +10 strength bonus for beserker against pikmen so it is tied to the unit class.
Swords needs iron and do pretty poor against horsmen who can use mobility to encircle and kill swords and ranged units. Hoplites dont have much to fear from horsemen and do not need iron so they do have some huge advantage over swords. They are also cheaper.
ThomasClark
Warlord
It's not? I'm referring to 0:21 into the video, a Warrior fights at 30 strength vs a spearman in a barb Camp. It appears to me that the entire melee line does get innate +10 strength vs anti-cav units.
Big J Money
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Ah, I thought the +10 vs. anti-cav was with no promotions. Requiring a level 3 promotion on melee definitely makes spearmen/hoplites better because people would be hesitant burn up a promotion on such a specific counter.
ThomasClark
Warlord
edit for clarity: no, you were right before about no promotions needed for +10. I wasn't aware in my earlier posts that melee, even basic warrior, gets +10 vs anti-cav.
Before, I imagined early game defense as being spearman and archers, but now it seems clear that spearman will only be production-efficient against mounted units. The good news is you do actually need combined arms.
As an aside, Samural get a big upgrade in my book, as they should trounce pikeman and of course swordsman and archers, especially with level 1 "Tortoise", +10 defense vs ranged.
stealth_nsk
Deity
Warrior gets +5, Swordsman (and its replacements) get +10. Hoplites are still decent against them if work together (especially considering they are cheaper to build, cheaper to maintain and dont require resources).
ThomasClark
Warlord
It seems warrior is +10 also, see screenshot (unless I am being tricked here, it looks unpromoted).
You are certainly right about the benefits of the hoplite vs regular swordsmen, but it is almost purely defensive, and there are other ways to defend against swordsmen. I take the most issue with Warriors fighting at 30 strength vs them - Warriors are cheaper to build and don't require teching to bronze working.
I guess I'm looking/hoping for an early unique unit to be a difference-maker, and I'm not seeing the Hoplite as much of an advantage at all. As with any other Civ, you have to look at the entirety of Greece's bonuses to judge their strength, but the Hoplite doesn't seem like a significant unit that anyone should fear, unlike the Varu, Legion, Kongo's unit, etc.
stealth_nsk
Deity
You're right! I remember seeing Warriors with only +5, but either I'm wrong or those things are subject of change.
You're not wrong, you were right, it was +5 in one of the older vids. It's been rebalanced (a good direction imo).
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