Hover Tanks

[Ozymandias]

In discussing Marla Singer's 2020 mod, the notion of hovercraft* specifically hovertanks came up.

I'm interested in what everyone who's interested thinks about hover tanks.

First off, on the plus side, being an SF buff, I think they're way cool. On the other hand, rough terrain and simple tasks like cornering at high speeds come to mind as obstacles.

Given the USMCs use of LCACs, the technology is obviously at least partly there --

So what do you all think?

-Oz


*I personally prefer SEVs -- Surface Effects Vehicles; and ACV -- Air Cushion Vehicle -- uses the same acronym as "Air Cavalry Vehicle"

-O.


PS -- note the poll allows multiples choice.

-O.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Well, you have atleast 4 hover tanks out there already. 1 of mine and 3 of Piernik's. An SEV would not be an effective MBT because the skirt would be too vulnrable to small arms fire. It works for LCAC's because other ships are much slower. An effective hovertank would need powerful lift jets or an anti-gravity device. With an anti-G device comes the added bonus of stopping on a dime with no worries about local momentum. Think Inertial Dampening Field on Star Trek.

 

[Bluemofia]

what do you mean by hover tanks? as in they are powered by air or by magnet, or by some other force?

 

[Thorgrimm]

Ozy, as a big Sci Fi fan i agree with you that they are cool! But as real world fighting vehicles they are not practical. As in adding to the points you mentioned, think of simple physics. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Think of the stabilization problems the vehicle would have when firing a main gun, not only would it not hit the target, but the possibility of flipping increases as the terrain is less flat. The only way to counter that would be to discontinue the lift effect and settle, but that would defeat the purpose of hover vehicles aka speed and maneuver. Then add in that they would be MORE vulnerable to counter fire. Those are the reasons in my opinion they are not workable as real world combat vehicles, and will remain in the category of support vehicles for the forseeable future. Hence my vote of only as specialty vehicles.


Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Xen]

the actual hover generator would have to be extremlly versitlile, with is being able to change the needed froce to stay off the ground every few feet- mabey as few as evbery few inches to sya stable on unstable gorund, you would then need somthing to stabilize (eg; thrusters for tlack of a better word) to stablize the craft while fireing a gun, the exception being a laser, as they have no recoil

 

[Ozymandias]

@all - I'm assuming that the primary lift is air, on an "air cushion" like the modern LCAC or the hovercraft which cross the English Channel.

@Wyrmshadow -- do you think armored skirts (rather like medieval plate mail) would do the trick? (I'm presuming an increase in power plant technology to permit all this; maybe MHD turbines) And could vectored thrusts from the air propulsion source address the maneuverability issue? (and more such vehicles from you would certainly be great! )

@Thorgrimm -- yep, the terrain issue is definitely a real one -- I could see these vehicles used in "specialized" environments like tundra or desert or marshland ... And I posit the same question re: recoil that I do to Wyrmshadow re:maneuverability -- could a computer timed air thrust equalizing the momentum from weapons fire be effective?

Best To All,

Oz


PS @Xen -- we cross-posted ...

-O

 

[Thorgrimm]

Ozy i suppose it is theoreticlly possible, just not probable. Think of the counter blast that would be need to counter the recoil of a 120mm cannon? you ever see an M1's recoil when firing? And that bad boy is 65 tons! So the counter blast would probably take the entire production of the lift device, grounding it any way just not as easily as you would in a intentional grounding. Now imagine you are traveling at 80 kph, then fire your main gun, and your lift goes away all of a sudden? Now imagine that sudden stop you are going to feel in a split second? That is why without Sci Fi tech i do not think they are practible as AFVs.


Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Thorgrimm
Ozy i suppose it is theoreticlly possible, just not probable. Think of the counter blast that would be need to counter the recoil of a 120mm cannon? you ever see an M1's recoil when firing? And that bad boy is 65 tons! So the counter blast would probably take the entire production of the lift device, grounding it any way just not as easily as you would in a intentional grounding. Now imagine you are traveling at 80 kph, then fire your main gun, and your lift goes away all of a sudden? Now imagine that sudden stop you are going to feel in a split second? That is why without Sci Fi tech i do not think they are practible as AFVs.

Point well taken -- so what kind of specialty vehicles do you imagine? Specialized re: terrain say for infantry transport and close support (basically what hovercraft were doing in the Mekong in the Vietnam war, but on a much more hi-tech level). How about artillery which "settles in" before it fires?

--Also, yes, I've seen an M1's recoil which begs two points: (1) how far can "recoilless" technology go (i.e., how big a gun, even for infantry support, can be mounted -- e.g., I assume Vulcan miniguns are well within the capacity but maybe not 120mms ) and (2) Xen's point -- within say fifty years, might MHD turbines (or some such) be small enough to power a vehicle-mounted laser (AFAIK these have so far only be tested from ground installation, ships and large aircraft ... ?)

Cheers,

Oz

 

[Thorgrimm]

Ozy, i see any type of vehicle that would not require large amounts of counter recoil capability unless settled. I can see these types as possible SEVs: Supply, behind the lines troop transport, missile platforms, artillery once grounded, and river crossing vehicles. The last one would be real effective. Say you had a river crossing battalion that could get your armored battalion across water obstacles in half the time. For maneuver warfare water obstacles are a real pain as they slow the impetus of your advance.


Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Zurai]

Depends on how sci fi you want to get. If you're learning towards the "science" side, then most likely they'll only be specialized vehicles for environments where normal tanks don't work so well, like marshes.

If, on the other hand, you're willing to slide more into the realm of fiction, you can have them use some sort of anti-gravity/inertial dampening mechanism to solve all of those problems. That's the route I'm taking with my mod - Hover Tanks and Hover Artillery come at a futuristic Anti-Gravity tech and are very fast and capable of ignoring all terrain penalties (their anti-gravity field allows them to "lift" over the canopies of forests and jungles, and has no real problem with the slopes on hills and mountains). They aren't as strong battlewise as other contemporary units, though.

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Thorgrimm
[...]and river crossing vehicles. The last one would be real effective. Say you had a river crossing battalion that could get your armored battalion across water obstacles in half the time. For maneuver warfare water obstacles are a real pain as they slow the impetus of your advance.

*sigh* it's a shame the Civ3 editor won't allow an "ignore movement effects" or even modify combat strength for rivers ...

I'm beginning to think that "properly" modding hovercraft is going to be a challenge ...

-Oz

 

[Thorgrimm]

Zurai, That sounds a loy like Fasa's game Renegade Legion: Centurion.



Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Wyrmshadow]

@Ozy, chance are no. I have no new hover ships in the pipeline.

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow
@Ozy, chance are no. I have no new hover ships in the pipeline.

I was just being greedy Most of my units 2010 - 2050 were made by you anyway.

All The Best,

Oz

 

[MarineCorps]

Oh yes BTW just wondering but how much recoil would a missle produce? Or a laser as of now?

 

[Zurai]

Lasers produce no noticeable recoil. I'm not sure of the recoil of a missile - intuition is telling me there's also not much recoil for those, but my intuition is hardly infallible.

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by MarineCorps
Oh yes BTW just wondering but how much recoil would a missle produce? Or a laser as of now?

I'm embarrassed not have thought of a missile tank -- probably because the M551 Sheridan (the only missile-firing tank I can think of off hand) was evidently such a complete disappointment.

... So an air cushion hover tank should be posssible if (1) an upgraded power plant is handy (2) armored skirts are available (3) it fires missiles, and can almost certainly do so on the move ...

Good calls, MarineCorps!

-Oz

 

[Thorgrimm]

I can see these types as possible SEVs: Supply, behind the lines troop transport, MISSILE PLATFORMS,

Ozy is this indicitive of you not reading all of the posts and just skim?



Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[MarineCorps]

Originally posted by ozymandias
I'm embarrassed not have thought of a missile tank -- probably because the M551 Sheridan (the only missile-firing tank I can think of off hand) was evidently such a complete disappointment.

... So an air cushion hover tank should be posssible if (1) an upgraded power plant is handy (2) armored skirts are available (3) it fires missiles, and can almost certainly do so on the move ...

Good calls, MarineCorps!

-Oz

/18/2004 3:56:12 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps well a misslile would not produce recoil, but is quite noticible. And a laser is sci fi tech i was talking about.

4/18/2004 3:57:06 PM Marine Corps thorgrimm And a 120MM shell is not noticble?

4/18/2004 3:58:08 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps nope a misslile has a con trail a cannon has a flash and that is it. A con trail is like an arrow back to the unit.

4/18/2004 3:58:40 PM Marine Corps to
thorgrimm But what is the purpose of a hover tank?

4/18/2004 4:00:29 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps maneuver and that con trail will point right back to that vehicle, regardless of where it is. as it still needs to control the missile in flight aka tow, milan, systems like that. which defeats the purpose of it.

4/18/2004 4:00:57 PM Marine Corps to thorgrimm But what about fire and forget?

4/18/2004 4:02:31 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps not possible in armored warfare bud. Too many obstacles to hide be hind and break lock. That is for aircraft where the guidance systems can keep a lock unless broken by EW.

4/18/2004 4:02:51 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps and the Hellfire is not fire and forget

4/18/2004 4:03:46 PM Marine Corps to thorgrimm Hmmmm, ok.

4/18/2004 4:07:51 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps like i said sci fi tech is needed to make them good afv's. The best in the real world is to speed up the logistical tail, which is the slowest part of a division. It slows down ops by about 60%. Now imagine a division that has its logistical tail in SEVs its ops tempo would be increased by about 40%. That is a hell of an increase in mobility.

4/18/2004 4:08:50 PM Marine Corps to
thorgrimm INdeed. An army could not survie without supplies

4/18/2004 4:09:09 PM Marine Corps to
thorgrimm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/javelin.htm

4/18/2004 4:09:35 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps nope, and imagine that army if it had a supply tail just as fast as it's combat units.

4/18/2004 4:10:01 PM Marine Corps
thorgrimm WOW. No one would be able to stop it. Check out that lick.

4/18/2004 4:10:06 PM Marine Corps thorgrimm link

4/18/2004 4:10:59 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps i did still won't be that effective as the gunner still needs to see the target, so not real fire and forget.

4/18/2004 4:11:49 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps True fire and forget is where you pull the trigger and it finds it's own targets

4/18/2004 4:12:06 PM Marine Corps to thorgrimm ok

4/18/2004 4:12:11 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps The IR image also allows the gunner to identify enemy armor targets, his first priority to engage and destroy. Javelin gunners must identify battlefield combatants at night based on the images seen in the NVS. The gunners must distinguish friends from foes to preclude fratricide. The Night Vision Laboratory has developed materials to train Javelin gunners to identify friends and targets based on t

4/18/2004 4:13:06 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps the images seen in the NVS. The gunners must distinguish friends from foes to preclude fratricide. The Night Vision Laboratory has developed materials to train Javelin gunners to identify friends and targets based on their IR images.

4/18/2004 4:13:44 PM thorgrimm to Marine Corps so by their own admission they are not fire and forget, just using the term wrong.8-|

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Thorgrimm
Ozy is this indicitive of you not reading all of the posts and just skim?

Naw, it's just my (bad?) habit of summarizing!

-Oz